Angela Shaw is a teacher of good HR, and a volunteer HR leader. She views her servant leadership as the path to her legacy in HR. Angela believes herself to be a poster child for the underrepresented and puts her self in the publish eye to serve those people not otherwise seen. She is currently the Vice President of Human Resources at Campus Advantage D&I Advocate, a TEDx + Public Speaker and a Volunteer Leader. She is an advocate, a disrupter, and a black woman.
When it comes to black talent in today's workforce, do you believe there's not enough of it? Or maybe, we just aren't intentionally looking for it?
Today, we're bringing back Angela Shaw to dive deeper into what every day feels like for a black person, especially in the workplace, and how people need to intentionally welcome diversity into their business instead of depending on systems that are currently in place. And how we do that? Ironically, it's not through large movements and aggressive battle cries - it's as simple as sitting down, having genuine conversations, and actively pushing for diversity in the workplace.
8:17 - Black talent in today's workforce: if there not enough? or are we not looking for it?
11:22 - A diverse workforce is a better workforce
20:30 - Diverse people often have to assimilate to the white standard of professionalism.
27:00 - White people don't consciously think about equality because they don't live in fear of prejudice.
28:06 - Change starts with cleaning your own house. Revolutionary change is expensive - start with small steps.
33:00 - Diversity - does it have any benefits to your life as a whole?
40:16 - The line between supporting black culture and appropriation.
51:06 - Lack of understanding is what creates fear.
1:04:00 - Small changes are more digestible. Dramatic changes create barriers and make people defensive.
1:12:45 - Being picked out because you're the only one is definitely better than being ignored because you're the only one.
1:19:50 - Angela's passionate plea to entrepreneurs
"Get to know people who are different than you, give value to their stories and let it change the way you do things"
GET IN TOUCH:
Mark Leary:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
Angela Shaw:
www.linkedin.com/in/angelalshaw
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
Wednesday, October 28, 2020
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, conversation, create, language, feel, person, black, talking, thinking, hear, agree, speak, world, white, important, life, diverse, friends, word, appropriation
SPEAKERS
VO, Angela, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong. Mark Henderson Marion, my name is Mark. And I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help them get control of your business. And part of how I do that is I let you listen in on a conversation between two people who have a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world, talking about subjects that you already know something about. But this time, we're digging deeper. And we're getting into the nuts and bolts of details that can help you unlock your understanding and get out of your own way and start to really break through your ceilings and get what you want from your business, and ultimately, from your life. And so of course, please don't forget to subscribe, give feedback and share this with your friends and get this in the hands of people who can use this and who would also want to hear what you're hearing. But I'm so excited to bring Angela Shopback because we had a great conversation several weeks ago. But Angela really felt like there was more to be said, and I agree. And so Angela, who is really a teacher of best practices, really good human resources, a servant leader, in her style, and in her life, really sees herself as the poster child for the underrepresented and really puts herself out there in the public eye to to serve those who are not otherwise seen. She is a TEDx speaker, public speaker in general, a volunteer leader. She is an advocate, a disrupter. And first and foremost, as we discussed last time, a black woman in America today. And I'm so glad to have you here. And I want to talk about all this going on in the world. Welcome, Angela.
Angela 01:39
Thank you, Mark. I'm so glad to be back. And I'm ready to talk.
Mark 01:45
So before we started recording, we were talking about all kinds of political things. Because today is interesting day is this is a day late in the week after a dumpster fire of a presidential debate. It is the day that President Trump has announced that he has the COVID virus. I'm laughing now because it seems it's ironic, to some extent, but at the same time, I do want to honor that it could be very serious for him. And if that's the case, I don't want to make light of that. So that they believe
Angela 02:13
it's not true that it's some sort of a political ruse, which went I don't even know how I feel about that. I'm like, I would not want somebody to be not telling the truth about that. I think it's assigned to of just how challenging and crazy and different things are and how people don't have any hope. And it's just a sad time, I think for everybody.
Mark 02:36
Well, it Yeah, it's disruptive. I mean, that's this this week has been a time of disruption, for sure. People wanted to learn something about the presidential candidates. That's not what happened. You know, people wanted some sense of stability and leadership moving forward and see these debates. And you know, the President of the United States now is going quarantine. And that's disruptive. And there's no, there's no upside to that. I mean, people could probably tell, that's what the guy deserves, and and other people, you know, it's not gonna be a big deal. The fact is, it's, it's disruptive. It's really not helpful to anyone any side. So
Angela 03:08
I'm sure he's gonna tweet for us, though. So we'll still get some communication from him.
Mark 03:13
Yeah, well, for sure. And who knows how it's all unfold in the next couple of days, because we saw how political leaders like Jagger bolson. Arrow, if I said that, right. The president of Brazil, just you know, in and out, no sweat. Suddenly, I'm blanking on the Prime Minister of England, you know, he was tough for him. And so he was like, you know, that was no joke. I was touching go for me. So it's, it's interesting right now, what that can do to how people feel?
Angela 03:44
Yeah, absolutely. It is. I don't want to have COVID-19. But it is just scary to I don't know, I don't even know if I have real thoughts. I mean, it is hard to even try to articulate some stuff right now. Well, so how does it get the sadness, the sadness? For sure. So
Mark 04:03
So what does this do for because we've got a lot of threads. And part of this whole conversation started was, let's talk about race, in particular in the workplace. And I love to bring this the tip of the spear for me is small business, and race and particularly what it's like to be black in a small business and even what is that world like? But there's a there is a big context of this there is political. Well, there's there's political transition, and concern, there is a pandemic and there are major race relations, currents flowing and there is potential unrest and there is the threat of a concern of law and order. I mean, it is a stew of really important, destabilizing issues. So what is it like for you maybe to think about, hey, we've got a cause. And it's kind of windy outs.
Angela 04:58
Yeah, so this funny cuz it goes back into a little bit of what we were talking about before we started recording. I'm not new to any of this stuff that's going on. These are things that I've known about and been a part of my entire career my entire life. I think what's really different for me is that more people are wanting to talk about it and more people are wanting to learn, and hopefully Fingers crossed more people want to see action and movement. We talk about politics a lot. And there's definitely a lot going on in politics. But I think when it talks about being black, and when we talk about being black at a job every day in your life, that's not political. We're talking about common human decency, we're talking about equality, the ability to be yourself and go to work every day to feel valued and included. That's not political. And so even as I think about everything that's going on in the world, that is my everyday life, I don't first think about who's running for president, I think about what is it going to be like, for me going to work today? Am I gonna deal with some microaggressions some unconscious bias? Am I gonna have to set somebody straight about something that they're confused about related to me and race, that those are my thoughts, you know, every morning when I wake up, and that's been my entire existence, I have baggage and I take it with me every single day in every situation.
Mark 06:14
And so that's what that's the point that changed the game for me when you and I first spoke a couple months ago, it was the framing of this is not about battle crime, Black Lives Matter. Because I started to believe that those battle cries is important as they are to rally the troops are actually they make it harder for the other side to hear, because it does sound like they have to be defended, defend against some sort of movement that potentially is going to encroach upon their freedoms or their whatever. Right? But we're hearing your description of like, no, this is a second by second thing this is this is not about a movement is as much as it is about every heartbeat, every breath at when I wake up and I everywhere I go every second of the day, I'm a black person having to deal with that reality. And it's, it's something you never get to turn off.
Angela 07:01
And it's pervasive. And I mean, I want to talk about like some things in the news that are examples of how this is pervasive to people. Right. So I'm sure everybody's heard the CEO of Wells Fargo, in a memo said that the reason why, or a reason why Wells Fargo's diversity numbers are bad is because there's a limited pool of black talent. Like he put those words in writing. He didn't say minorities, he didn't say people of color. He said black talent. How do you think that makes every single black person who sees value in themselves who apply for a job at Wells Fargo, their ATM system didn't find them to be black talent. They weren't able to come into the door. And now the CEO makes this broad statement about black talent. That's the kind of stuff that happens every day. And if it happens on
Mark 07:51
so I'd love to unpack that. So I know there's people who listen to this will be like, well, what maybe there isn't like I've done interviews, and I didn't get access to I had 20 candidates and three were black. And so they're they're thinking, well, that might be true. So what oops, I just hit the mic. What is the truth? And you were an HR? So you're recruiting you're getting these numbers in? Where's that? Where's the black talent? What are the things that could potentially prevent somebody from finding this talented black people that we believe are out there?
Angela 08:17
I think they prevent themselves because they're not looking for it? Because they haven't been intentional about it about it. Now, if we look at metrics, obviously, racists are calling minority for a reason, right? There are, there are less of us, right? We're working on that. But I think what black people would tell you is I've tried to get into these doors as as talent and have not been allowed in. And we have been intentionally left out. And now you're telling me that it's because you're not out there. We're here, I'm here. We're here. That part, I know. You have to be intentional about looking for this limited talent. And if we no diversity numbers, say you perform better if you have a diverse team. If there's a limited number of Mark, why are you not looking for that limited number?
Mark 09:05
Okay, so
Angela 09:06
you're throwing up your hands and saying it just doesn't exist? And I'm using that as my excuse.
Mark 09:10
Okay, so there's a lot here. And I want to make sure we do this slow enough to get the nuggets and not skip over the critically profound pieces. It's risky territory, where I'm at. And so I want you to call me out. If I say something like Matt said, super racist mark, you just say. So I think I don't want to make this all about the smallest businesses, because that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking most of my world are businesses that are typically under about 500 people, on average between about 10 and 250 people in the company. So an entrepreneurial organization who is thinking something like well, I need talent, and I'm not concerned necessarily with my my primary concern is the best talent or at a decent price to get a good product out the door. So I I have a profitable business. And if I can do that in a socially conscious way, great, but that's not my primary goal, my primary goal is like I need to run this dang business. And so I think there's a perception. And I certainly would have felt this when I ran my business, that if I had to bring on a DIY project or initiative to hire, it would have felt like, added cost, like I just like, I just need the most efficient, effective way to get people in the door who can do the job. And so it sounds like there might be some learning that needs to happen that could be expensive. In terms of time and energy. What does that look like?
Angela 10:41
It's a hard question to answer. It's like, I hear your question mark. But that's not what I want to say. Okay, I'm not gonna try to answer
10:50
your question,
Mark 10:51
because I want to make the whole point of the question is to make it super proud, I want to I want to, I want a person who's got a 50 or 100 people in their company and say, like, this makes perfect sense. You know, this is this is high value stuff. And it's as accessible and not bureaucratic, and not some giant fortune 100 company, regulation Affirmative Action Program, I got to bring you I want to be practical and impactful.
Angela 11:12
Well, the first thing I'm going to say is, I feel like the priority should change. So I feel like the priority should be that you want to have a diverse staff. So that's the first part is changing your mindset about that.
Mark 11:22
I do believe that my experience is that diverse workforce, for me has always been a better workforce, I have experienced that for sure.
Angela 11:29
So that's the mindset to start with, that's going to help you in your hiring practices, right. So hiring practices as they exist, lead people out, it doesn't include people. So what are the things that you can do to make sure that the talent pool is diverse, which helps you hire more diverse talent. So if you open a job, you have 100 applicants, and there's no diverse people in that pool, you're probably not gonna hire a diverse person. If you use recommendations, and everybody already existing is white, you're not gonna be.
Mark 12:03
So that's, that's a problem. It's like a filter, right? So I only know the people I know. And all, I had that problem, I'll be totally I was like, I want to have some black people on my show. And I went to my LinkedIn, and guess what was not in my LinkedIn.
Angela 12:19
And now you know me. So there you go.
Mark 12:21
Yeah. Well, that's right. But I had to ask, I had to find you. I had to ask like, do you know, me on this subject? This
Angela 12:27
is embarrassing. What I'm saying. You were intentional. intentional. So you said, I want this and you were intentional about looking for it. And you found it. And I'm sure you found a lot, right. So it's out there. The it has to change that we have to be intentional about it, we can't just leave it to the structures and practices that have been in place, because they're set up to leave people out. And not just black people, but minorities as a whole, even women to a certain extent. So I mean, you have to be intentional and changing that. So one having the diverse mindset and wanting it and then to being intentional about it. And I think, you know, if you do some grassroots kind of learning and thinking, you may or may not need this di consultant. But if you do need the consultant spend the money, because isn't that the same as you'd spend money on anything else that could be a value to your business that would pay off and help?
Mark 13:24
Well, I think there's two critical ingredients. And you've said this, but it's worth highlighting, you got to have belief, you gotta leave that this is something for your benefit. And, and yeah, and I think that if you don't have that kind of over,
Angela 13:38
and even once you get diverse talent, if you don't treat them right, they're gonna leave you. So back to my favorite example of Wells Fargo. In the last year, they have had seven like high powered black women leave their organization in the last 12 months. That's telling you something. So the talent pool is limited, because that's what our CEO believes we are here doing things. And now we're leaving because we don't feel included. You know, that's the next part of it is that once you get the diversity, let's make sure people feel included in their valued.
Mark 14:16
So how does that happen? Because I, I think I said something in our last interview about when I first started intentionally years ago, 15 years ago, maybe I was starting to interview and I thought, you know, this diverse workforce thing works for me. I really, and it's not just about black people, it's kind of anything, everybody with different perspective, I would when I looked around the room, and it felt good to me, I was like, it's really all these different perspectives. And I Well, I didn't have it, I actually didn't even have science for it. I just knew that it was better, and it felt good. And we had better results. And so I was like cool. This check. Like I don't need to overthink this. It just feels good. So let's do it. So I would so I went and had intentional conversations, and I would find myself talking to let's say a black individual and I would think, Oh gosh, this person says x, that's uncomfortable to me. Do I say something? They want to ask me a question. And that's a huge hot button. Right? So actually, maybe we should go there. Do I just let it go? And how do I judge that? Do I filter that out? I will put it in. And I still actually, to be honest, 15 years later, when I hired that guy, he was a great guy, and never brought up the subject. And I still feel weird about it. So what should I have done there? So the point of the question is, when you're when you're uncomfortable with cultural differences, it's destabilizing. And so if that's that that's a barrier to continuing the process.
Angela 15:36
What about it makes you uncomfortable? I think that Yeah, I would start I would start there. I would start with
Mark 15:41
you. Yes. Judge judgment is judgment. Absolutely. So I judge its judgment. It's its judgment, it is stereotyping. It's all that stuff. It's, it's, you know, cultural norms. When people you know, it's, you know, grammar is like, if somebody uses proper grammar, that's an indication of education and other things. It's it's part of its prejudice. It's which I mean, in a very neutral sense, like you take a small amount of information, and you use it to predict a larger number outcomes, which is what we do in an interview process. We like what are your grades? You know, what, what were the? What did your last boss say about you? That's prejudicial for us to make a good judgment about whether this is a good hire or not. So that was one of those pieces of information that was uncomfortable to me, because I grew up in a world will no one said that. And now I've got people who do say it, I don't know what to make of it, because it's not a word I'm used to. So what would what do you? What's your recommendation? Like today? Somebody comes into the job interview process, and you say, you know, is it reasonable to say we have a certain type of language we use with our clients? And I would prefer it You said, pronounce the word ask as opposed to x or what's, what's your advice? there? I'm way out.
Angela 16:49
Literally would never do that. Okay. And it never like, would even cross my mind to do that. It's like somebody's having an accident. I mean, would you ask somebody what an accident not to you their accent? Well, that's
Mark 17:01
a great question. They do that all the time. They do that all the time and cultural visualization. Indian outsourcing, they do that all the time. They say that, Mike, my clients cannot hear you, they can understand you. You're using Indian versions of the words of English, because India actually has its own version of English. It's not American English. And so when they train call center employees in India to handle American calls, they teach them a new version of English, and they neutralize the accent. So they do exactly
Angela 17:30
that. Well, the new version of a new version of English versus them having an accent is something a little different.
Mark 17:37
Well, they do both. They do both. They neutralize the act in the Philippines the same way. They teach them, the American English, and they teach an American accent because they want social comfort. Because if you ever had that experience, you got a technical support issue, and you get a thick accent, you're like, Oh, this isn't good.
Angela 17:58
I mean, I'm gonna have to, I mean, everybody draws their line in the sand, like, yeah, that's my line in the sand. I mean, I just feel like making people that's the whole, you are assimilating, you're not keeping yourself? I just can't,
Mark 18:15
you know. So I agree. I agree that what is the difference between assimilation, and I agree, I don't think assimilation is good. And I see this in the Jewish world as well. And in every culture, who wants to protect their ethnicity, right, their, their, their, their cultural values are protecting it, you're even making them sacred and holding them at a higher level of esteem in the face of assimilation. And then there is practicality of here's the job, here's what we're trying to do. And if you show up on the call in India, and you are speaking in your Indian version of English, my customers will not stay because they will not trust the outcome of your tech support call. And so we have to teach you a different language. And so those are very different, but they've looked very similar.
Angela 19:00
Yes. And again, I'm gonna say there is a difference between teaching somebody the English way to say a word and telling somebody not to say x. I mean, I'm gonna say there's a difference there to like, it's a nuance, but there is a difference there.
Mark 19:13
Because so
Angela 19:14
somebody's saying x doesn't mean they're not going to be able to work, they're not going to be able to do their job.
Mark 19:20
Well, depends on what their job is. Because part of the job of an individual might be to represent a company with a certain, you know, in a certain circumstance. And I know this is super great, and I'm intentionally kind of keeping in the super gray area because yeah,
Angela 19:40
you know, and again, it's based on just my experiences and things I've been through just the same way yours is, and I think that we cannot be so you say it's great, but I actually think it's very specific.
Mark 19:56
Just not say black and white. I heard that very specific, but it's actually not.
Angela 20:05
Like Yes, but I feel like it is actually very specific. Somebody's using a cultural word. And I feel like it's not the same as, say using cuss words or, you know, the difference between curse and HKUST. Right. Even that, like that's even an example.
Mark 20:22
That's Yeah, you're right.
Angela 20:24
Right. So I mean, that's very specific and picking that out. Yeah, about somebody. The other thing we need to point out is that we all have to assimilate to the white standard of professionalism, like, okay, yeah, fair enough. The black people, we had we not telling white people to say x. Or, you know, the power. So I mean, it always goes back to who has the power, and that's the group that has the power, and they set these standards that you have to live up to. Now, whether or not you tell somebody about saying a word that way, I would shy against that. But I guess I would be interested to see what the reaction was.
Mark 21:06
Yeah, so all I can say is that you've definitely reaffirmed my commitment, my decision to stay away from it until I know better was the right call, because I still don't really know better. But I guess what I would say now is I would I would be able to say, I think probably what I would say is when you say and I will do this only with the trusted, trusted close friends. Like when you say that word. Is that a word you consciously think of? Is it something that you identify with as your way of saying it? Like, you know, like I said, somebody in the south?
Angela 21:38
Who has a dry mouth way of saying it, but it doesn't bother me, right?
Mark 21:42
For sure. But in your mind, so like somebody said, like, you sound like it from Texas, can you get rid of that accent? Somebody from Texas is gonna say like, Hell, no. That's how I talk if you don't like it move, move along. And so I could easily imagine somebody who says, Yeah, x is the way I say it. That's the deal, is, it's part of my package. But I so and that's, I think that's a very specific clear way of handling it. But I can hear I can flip the tables around. And I can imagine that if I'm that person, I can say like, well, I've got a choice. Right now. I'm about to make a decision. Am I about to stand up for my culture and pay a price? Or am I going to assimilate a little bit and say, yeah, I mean, it's just reversing of an essence. Okay, I can do that for you. And that's a that's an that's a really big decision for some
Angela 22:30
and black people do that every day. Yeah. So again, let's go back to that's always been our experience, that's always been something, you're too loud, you're too much fun, you lack too much that it's been our whole life. So in your right, it is a decision every time about whether or not you're going to stand up and say no, because this is how I am or if you're going to assimilate or coats, which is the other word or phrase that she used a lot. It's the same, you go into a sport, more of you act differently with different people. So like with your friends who are like you, there's your smiling, and there's your Hey, what's up, but at work it is Well, hello, how are you? And good morning? How can I help you cope switching? So you have to be different in your different environments, because you recognize that there is this white standard of professionalism. And if you're anything other than that, it's going to be held against you.
Mark 23:27
That's incredible, because we've all experienced it right, everybody? Yeah. Every white person who's my age or older knows, Eddie Haskell and Eddie Haskell was the beaver cleaver character who was just super troublemaker with his friends and the most polite kid in the neighborhood with parents. And it was in so the Eddie Haskell switch of like, Oh, yes, Miss Clara. Yes, Mr. Cleaver, just the super super polite. Oh, that's, that's your best friend right there. And then when you get him in the so as a kid, you know, you cast around your friends and you and I say cast that's my word. I don't say curse. Brown parents where you don't you don't cuss around parents. But as I've gotten older, I that's that little Miko is Virginia code switching, which clearly is not as existential is yours. I just I do it less. And I get I swear a lot more and I swear on my kids, which is probably not great. But I you know, it's it is interesting, how that concept of that context switching of, who do I talk to now I do I do self regulate, to some extent, this is kind of stream of consciousness, like are certain teams around that, that they they they sense I sense the need some edge and I bring some edge. And there are other teams, they're just they don't need that edge and and I put the edge away. So there is a little bit of self awareness that I think everybody needs to bring to their situation. So I
Angela 24:47
guess three, but I wouldn't say that there are differences there are
Mark 24:50
I mean, it's the the consequence, the consequences. The difference, like if very different. Yes.
Angela 24:55
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's kind of like you know, the white person who was raised in Corpus Christi. telling you that they're they were a minority and they understand how you feel.
Mark 25:05
I'm guessing you're thinking of an actual situation.
Angela 25:07
You don't? You don't?
Mark 25:13
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I do think that I think that there's not enough of these conversations. And I'm hoping this convert, because I love this conversation. This is the kind of conversation that happens. I think all too rarely, and very, almost never publicly. But I've had a kind of parts of these conversations privately. And they're, and I think what makes them so useful is that they don't have a war cry attached to them. There's no there's no movement here. It's a very human consideration of like, you know, when I walk into a room, this is what how I feel. And this is, and this is the concept, these are the consequences to me, which is totally different than a riot. And I'm not trying to associate you with a riot, but I am saying the cut this subjects are conflated in, in the politics and in the news. You know, nobody's nobody thinks or writes good. No one thinks or writes good. I'm just I'm sorry, I get it when you're politicizing this around like there's someone who wants to write, there's no one who wants to write other than maybe politicians and political strategists who see an election impact to
Angela 26:18
that value out of it for them. Yeah. I mean, I agree with you, I think even the writers aren't wanting to write, but they want change. So yeah, I mean, I can certainly understand that I'm not a writer, but I can certainly understand wanting change, I would also say that I think it takes all different kinds to try to push for the change that we need. So I mean, even you know, I'm very active on LinkedIn. And there are different voices on LinkedIn, even as it relates to Black Lives Matter. And the way one person approaches a subject versus somebody else, we're different. And we need all of our differences. They're trying to, again, push for the change progress. That's what we want. We want to see progress people want. I know, I would love to wake up and feel equal. I don't even know if that's gonna happen in my lifetime. And I just don't feel like white people think about that for themselves. They don't wake up being like, Am I gonna be equal today? They don't wake up wondering if somebody that they love will be killed or stopped by a police officer? You know, those are the differences that make it not political, that make it about how do I just get to exist in this world peacefully?
Mark 27:29
Well, I bet you know, it. It's easy to speak in superlatives. I bet there are some white people who do have some of those fears. But I definitely agree that that's not the norm. Certainly not. That's not the life I've experienced, I'd I've not ever woken up wondering, you know, if, if prejudice was going to ruin all of my plans for my day, and maybe my life. So I hear that and that it that it, like I said, that is the biggest game changer for my perspective on this and seeing things like how does someone really, really support change? And my belief has started, especially with this conversation, and the things I've been doing lately, you know, it really starts with cleaning your own house. It's one thing to put on a T shirt and wear a hat. And and I'm not, I'm not sure that actually helps, right? You know, I see black lives matter, banners and people's windows and friends wearing shirts and hats. And I'm like, what does it do? I'm not saying don't do it, because I think the people who I would if you see a white guy with Black Lives Matter shirt, does that the positive?
28:36
It is okay,
Mark 28:37
so that's good. That part is certainly good. I don't think it changes a lot of mine. So,
Angela 28:40
but it probably makes that guy feel better too. So in a good way, in a good way. Okay. So that's great. There's some value there too. So if that's the only way that they can support or that's the first way that they support? I'll take it. Let's do that.
Mark 28:55
Yeah, that was my point. It's small steps. Small steps. Yeah, I think that revolutionary change is very expensive, right? expensive and time life damn is damaging, like, if we have revolutionary change. And I'm not saying we don't need revolution, because sometimes we really do I am believer that we are the human race and sometimes violence is our only communication and I'm not saying war. War is war is war when all other things fail peaceful protest about and I'm certainly I realized what I just said could have sounded like I was advocating riots and violence and I absolutely not. But I'm more saying is it like sometimes two dogs fight it out? Right. So it's a natural thing that happens and and when violent revolutions and overthrows happen in the most extreme of extreme of historical circumstances, where lives are lost, sometimes that is all that nature could give us. But it is so damaging, you do not come out the other side of something like that, without having years or decades or in certain cases, centuries of healing that have to come from that kind of change. So I think
Angela 30:00
even the way people are characterizing the Black Lives Matter movement, they want to compare it like to the KKK or other hate groups. But I feel like the difference is it's so yes, there's an organization. And I don't know about that organizations propriety with funds or fundraising or anything, I can't speak to that. But aside from that organization, the movement of again, me living in a world every day and feeling safe, going into a workplace and thinking I have equal opportunity is something completely different. And that's not political, you know, and that's not necessarily related to that organization is just related to black people in their lives every day, how they live it, but people always want to characterize, right, so they just want to put all of it together in this movement with this organization that's misappropriating funds and comparing it to kkk and it's spreading hate. When Mark that's, that's not what it is.
Mark 30:55
Yeah, I agree. So as soon as, as soon as attached to a movement. And again, I'm not trying to take away from movements, because there's a lot of where this comes from. But if you're trying to negotiate your behavior against the actions of a movement, that's a big move, that's I got it, I got to process a lot of information, I got to figure out how I'm engaging with that, as opposed to something small like saying, Hi. How are you doing today and inviting somebody into your when making a little more eye contact and cleaning your own house like, okay, and that's a big thing for me is Jordan Peterson talks about this concept of, you know, clean your get your own, get your own house in order before you worry about changing the world, like just get the focus inward. And, and there's a lot of housekeeping that people can do. One on One, you can make a difference in one person's life in your own life by just being a little more open and seeing some value in really small ways.
Angela 31:53
I agree. I mean, I think it starts by looking at your inner circle. And if everybody in your inner circle looks exactly like you, you might need to do a little work on that. And that's where that going to say hello to somebody starts.
Mark 32:05
Yeah, and I think taking that taking that, because I think even that step, for a lot of people could be uncomfortable imagining if you think your friend group of will say pick a random number, 20 people, 20 people in your common friend group and imagine suddenly, they're half, half of them are not white or homogenous, or whatever capacity. Yeah, that's probably that thought is probably destabilizing. And so I'm saying, just ask the question, you know, like, look at that sit with it. How did it get there? Well, you know, what would be different?
Angela 32:34
Because the difference again, because we're talking about all these differences is they don't need that for anything. So to have a diverse circle, they don't need that to worry about getting a job or an opportunity or anything, whereas marginalized people, underrepresented people. We need that.
Mark 32:54
Yeah. So I guess the question, the question asked is, with openness and honesty, like, could there be a benefit? Could there be benefit to my life? If I had a little more diversity in it? Could there be and I would, I would ask anybody to ask that question with the, with the openness to say, maybe not. But maybe, and if you make if you spend some time looking around and understanding what diversity could look like, because I think that's the issue, though, is it? You think you know what it looks like, and you think you know, what it feels like? And you're like, I don't need that. But if you said, what does it look like? What would better be for me? Could I get more knowledge, more perspective, more out of my life, and then ultimately, more out of my business. And
Angela 33:36
we know that that's true, but just getting people to accept that it's true, is the hard part. But it's true. We know it, there's studies out there that prove it to be so it's definitely true.
Mark 33:49
So when the studies say something, what do they say? They say the right people are happier when they have more diverse friend groups. Are the workplaces more productive, or both?
Angela 33:56
That both but definitely more productive, and also affects the bottom line. So like, if you're showing diversity, you're going to appeal to a diverse customer, which is giving you more customers, which increases your bottom line?
Mark 34:11
Yeah, so that kind of hits a nerve. I don't know what I'm going to say here. Because I do think uniqueness and a willingness to not serve all beings. In other words, being all things to all people we have the proof that that's not great. We know that's not good all things all people does not work, no one remembers you. You're not specific, you're generic, and it's not useful. So understanding identity of what's true about you and your company and your culture and ultimately your family and you know what's true about you and really making sure you're proud of that. And it particularly I see this in religion, so I have worked with a lot of leaders who bring their faith into their business and and I'm Not talking about Christian trial attorneys who are putting into their marketing. I'm not really a fan of that. Personally, I, that's a little suspicious to me. But I'm really talking about people who when they show up at the office, they they really are very serious about how their faith guides their decision making. And I and I see a lot of leaders making a choice about how proud and how vocal and visible they're going to be with that. And I'm always really kind of encouraging of like, this is important. You should, you should put it out there. And and this is where I think the trickiness comes in. Because the fear they have to overcome to do that is to say that some is to be okay with, not everyone's gonna like that. But the people who do are gonna love it, people who don't like it are gonna go somewhere else. And so it's this whole. Definitely, we see better results when the culture understands what's important to the leadership and all the culture plugs into that. And faith based cultures are very powerful when they're clear, and consistent and an integrity, which is a bit of not being altered. So to speak to that if we're going to be diverse, how can we be unique and diverse?
Angela 36:11
So if you're going to appeal to a faith based audience, that's anybody who's faith based, right. So I think the demographics are not as specific as I only appeal to white faith based people, or whatever, I only appeal to Jewish people, I only appeal to Hindu people. We're talking faith based. I mean, I think that's where the diversity comes from. So it's not as broad to say, You're all things to everybody. But it's certainly more inclusive to say, it's not just one demographic that we're looking at.
Mark 36:41
I hear you and I, my personal values would be very open. I am very open. And I do believe in that. But after speaking almost scientifically, only like if somebody Well, I mean, you know, the synagogue caters to Jews, right? They have very good loyalty. They don't cater to Christians. They don't. And so that's part of their identity. And so it keeps it clear that you don't
Angela 37:10
have to be white to be Jewish, though. Okay, true. So I mean, again, we're not, we're not, we're not gonna appeal to everybody. But we're not as specific to say, only white Jewish people. I was gonna use a sales example of say, like Nike, Nike released a new whatever, Air Jordan shoe, we want to appeal to the 24 to 35, age bracket demographics, right? Again, that's not everybody, but it's not specific to only black people in the 24 to 35 year old bracket. Do you see what I'm saying?
Mark 37:42
I do. And I'm gonna say something that's super ignorant. So I so what about a brand like fubu?
Angela 37:49
They're not gonna say why people can't wear it.
Mark 37:51
But what is it? does it stand up? does it stand for what I was told? It was like,
Angela 37:56
Yes, it absolutely does. But again, when you think about, there's not much black ownership in the world, and sometimes you have to create your own things to create this generational wealth to create something that we can be drawn to. Um, I'm actually, I think it's okay to have fubu.
Mark 38:18
Okay, so tell me more about that. Because I have to believe people are like, confused now.
Angela 38:22
representation matters. Yeah. So only white people can create brands. I mean, so I think that's the bigger message,
Mark 38:31
potentially exclusive, isn't it? I mean, it's trying to it's trying to say like, for us by us, and I guess what you're saying, is it? Well, I mean, you can buy it, but, but is it? I mean, I
Angela 38:40
think it's intentionally exclusive. I think it's a representation.
Mark 38:43
What happens, what happens? If you see a white guy wearing fubu? Is that like, What's up with that? Or do you or is that?
Angela 38:49
It's, everybody's different. I'm cool with it. I don't have any issue with that. I'm pretty sure the creators of fubo are not gonna have any issue with it. And I don't think it's, I don't think it is, I definitely don't think it's exclusive in a way that nobody other than us can wear it. But then what about appropriation?
Mark 39:09
Right, I think that's an issue as well, because this is complicated. And I
39:14
it is,
Mark 39:15
I guess, I'm moving pretty fast. So let's slow this down. Because Because we ran away from it. Yeah, no, I think it's important important stuff here that I'm not fully in command of. And so I want to slow it down. So I don't say something ultra stupid, which the odds are going up every second we continue this conversation. So there is for us by us, that's we got a brand we're trying to build ourselves up. And now we've got white people buying it and you've got two ways to interpret that. And one is like, Cool, thank you for the support, like Black Lives Matter or it's like, man, white people just think and they can borrow our culture and make it their own. They don't even know what that means is like it's like the tattoo that you know in in Japanese. That means I'm an idiot and You're gonna check me out, I got Japanese deadly Look, I'm wearing food I it's cool. And there's people going like you don't even know what that means. So, you know, untangle that what's what's the right first step to creating good outcomes?
Angela 40:16
I don't know if there's a right first step. And I do think appropriation definitely exist, right. But I don't think it's as granular as that, why people buy fubu. So I think there's definitely specific things to appropriation that the black culture would talk about. So a white person doing black things for the audience, to sell records to get you to watch my shows or whatever. But I'm not really a part of your community, I don't really support your community. And I'm not even really in there. That's appropriation, a white person wearing fubu. It's just not the same comparison. And I think, I think it's too granular to look at it in that way.
Mark 40:59
Well, it creates a problem of prejudice again, because for you to make a judgement, you have to have more details, and you probably have access to in any given moment you walk down the street, you see a white person wearing fubu, that's totally different than you seeing somebody who is an entertainer who is got a whole history of behaviors and examples and things are doing that you could draw more of a conclusion where this person is, in some form of appropriation or really, really being part of the culture and supporting. But
Angela 41:29
I do want to be clear, though, that having fubu I don't feel like is an exclusive statement of we're keeping everybody out. I think it's more of a statement of we did want to create something because we've never had the opportunity to do that.
Mark 41:46
Yeah, right. So So I hear you, so I'm hearing something in that really deep that is not it's really easy to, to choose an interpretation. It's like, you know, finally something designed for us, made by us, and we're proud of it. And in the in the people, we're thinking of the people in our minds, the people in our hearts are us. And there's no exclusion attached to that. because nobody's
Angela 42:15
given us anything. Nobody wanted us to have anything, everybody has left us out of everything. And look, we did something.
Mark 42:22
But there is an easy way to interpret that. And I think it's on both sides. I think that you could easily get defensive as a black person and say, like, no, this is ours. But But I don't know, you, we'd have to go back to the leadership of of design to determine what intentions were. Because I don't I do think that that exclusivity, that insularity that people create is, it's like an immune response. As soon as you put up a wall of defense, something's going to react to that on the other side of the wall. And that's even even even in cultural identity protection, we in Jewish culture is going to preserve their traditions and keep it visible. And they're going to their kids are going to have holidays, where they're not at school, when the Christian kids are still at school, that's a highly visible, it creates a reaction, and it is clearly a difference in differences, create that divide, the same way that they preserve the traditions. And so it's interesting for every benefit, there is a cost and for every cost, there is a benefit. And that is no different.
Angela 43:32
That's true. You're right about that.
Mark 43:36
So I do think in the end, there has to be some sense of both both cultures have to figure out what the common ground is. I think that I think in the end, that is what has to be negotiated. These are the things we're not negotiating. This is what we identify with most closely. That keeps us unified. And we want this. And we're not changing that. And these other things, these are our common ground, these are the things we will do together your language, my language, same language, because if you don't have that you literally can't communicate, right, you have to have a common language, every human being to communicate with another has to have a common language, even if it's a written language. It's a third party language that they're working through. But you have to agree. If you don't know my language, and I don't know yours, we are never going to communicate, one or both of us has to agree to learn a new language.
Angela 44:29
Which happens a lot because there wouldn't be bilingual trilingual people,
Mark 44:33
right? But that's a concession. That's a concession if I only knew French, and, and I'm not going to learn English, well, that's choice. And I'm never going to speak to somebody who doesn't know French and I'm going to and that's a that's a price I pay. So one or both sides have to say, where are we meeting in the middle? We got it. There is some equivalent of I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's assimilation because assimilation sort of means blending to let go of the differences. But it's really closely Akin in some ways, some form of compromise, it's certainly some sacrifice or commitment, it's FF, it's gotta build the bridge, right? If you build the bridge, you're sacrificing resources in time from something else you could have done. So you have to, you have to contribute something.
Angela 45:18
But if we use language as the example, though, learning a new language is not giving up your own, it's just giving you the ability to just communicate with more people
Mark 45:26
well, but I do think that there's still that's that formula of cost and benefit. For every, when you literally speaking, when you learn a new language, you spend less time speaking your own, and you do have to spend less time doing something else. And when people learn learn multiple languages, they tend to lose some of their depth of vocabulary, and one of them, because they spend so much time translating. And so, you know, if you have 50,000 words, I don't know the average language, the lexicon, per se, it's 50,000 words, if you add another 30,000 of another language, there's about 10,000 words or so of your primary language that are going to get less attention. And so as you add more languages, Now, of course, brains are different. And some brains can handle many, many languages much more easily. But I'd like to say that it's not it's not a, it's an investment, and you spend that money and time and energy in that area and not someplace else. And it's with the intent of some form of unity.
Angela 46:20
Right, because I think what we can agree upon is that everybody wants acceptance, they want to, you know, be treated the same, they want to be included, they want to be allowed access. So I mean, whatever agreement has to happen for that to happen.
Mark 46:35
Okay, so that that was a light bulb, we just said right down. So if I build a bridge to another community, the sacrifice of language and time, sensibly opens up all of the resources on the other side of that of that language barrier, right. And we know, me speaking somewhat conceptually here, but languages are different, right. So the French language is very different. It's got a whole set of meat, you characterize languages in very objective differences, the types of things that the German language has versus Spanish versus different types of Spanish and, and, and the Asian languages, and which are not all, necessarily even related to each other. There's very objective ways to describe attributes of the language, which means the cultures are different, which means there's resources there that your culture doesn't have. And so it's like building a trade route. If you if you learn a new language, you're building a trade route to another territory, that you now have access to more people, more thoughts, different things different by definition, different stuff, that as we globalize our world, which that's a whole other hot buttons were basically to me that I'm using that in the context of having access to the resources of the globe. Rather than being tied to your local only resources, you've got more opportunity to be efficient and make a bigger difference and just create, just create that you're
Angela 48:00
actually to create absolutely keeps going back to this acceptance of it, though. I mean, the example of like, for instance, I live in Texas, though we have a big Hispanic population, a lot of people speak Spanish. And there's always this thing about Hispanic people speaking Spanish in the workplace, like communicating with one another on break at lunch. And people feeling some kind of way about that. Because they assess some something to that that's negative. So because I've experienced it, because they want to speak their native language. They're talking about me, that's rude. They should speak the language of our country. All of that, right. Yeah. And like, that's a huge example to me of some of that acceptance, some of that building a bridge, some of that you can still include it be included and belong.
Mark 48:55
Well, there's, that's a lot to unpack right there. Because I have experienced that as a as a as a young child. And in summer camp, the camp I went to had a lot of expat, South Americans. And they look different, they acted different, they spoke differently, because they were culturally, ethnically different. And so there was they were, they felt like fish out of water. And so what do you do when you're a fish out of the water, you find your people who you're comfortable with, and so they congregated together. They were more comfortable speaking Spanish than English. And so there were periodic rules like, Look, Hey, no, English only we need to include me to make sure everybody is as heard because there was teaming, right, on both sides. Right. So you know, the the the English speakers would be prejudicial against the Spanish speakers. And so there absolutely was, you know, teaming that went on, and they were talking about it sometimes. And you know, and there were those bilingual kids who were like, yeah, you don't want to hear you don't want to know what he just said. But it's just a barrier, right? So thinking about how does How do you solve it? It's tough. Because if you're if you're at camp for six, seven weeks, so that's a short amount of time to say like, Hey, you know, seven year old mark, would you like to bridge the cultural gap and learn Spanish? So you can communicate with him? It's like, No, I just want to play tetherball. Just just, I just want to ride a horse and sail a boat. I don't want to I don't want to learn a language right now. And yet, you know, I don't know. It's it's not efficient. It's not it's not awesome.
Angela 50:27
Yeah. But I think that's a great example, though, of how do we build that bridge? In that example, how do we build that bridge? I mean, I think you don't tell somebody they can't speak their native language. I don't think maybe not seven. It's hard at seven. But as adults in a workplace, I do think that there are actions we can take or spaces we can enact for people to feel comfortable having the conversations about that, and what that looks like. And so maybe, then the assumption is not that if they're talking in their native language, that they're talking about you because we tried to foster relationships between the groups.
Mark 51:05
Well, I agree. But I think the simple way to boil it down is like, creates fear, lack of understanding creates fear if there's a problem. So that's the problem, like the assumption, not helpful. The acknowledgement that there's fear. Yeah, that's fair. So let's say like, when I'm out of control, when I don't know what's at play, when I don't know what they're doing, when I don't know what they're saying, how do we assuage that fear? Now there might, you might want to create some language protocol that you can agree upon, like, here's how we communicate, you know, and to make sure the workplace is efficient and fears low. Yeah. But there also might be non lingual things there might, you know, make sure you make sure you share it, make sure you don't have bad apples on the team. Because a bad app. I mean, thinking is very tactical, if you've got a bad apple non culture fit on the team who is dictating dissent and doing it in another language that the boss can hear. That's bad. That's right. That's right. And then that's not it's not a problem of language. It's a problem of bad hiring and bad leadership.
52:03
Yes.
Mark 52:05
But it's easy to point and
Angela 52:06
be an equal on both sides, though. So sometimes it might be the other language speakers. Sometimes it might not be I mean, so just again, that I think, a lot of times, it goes back to the intentional part of how an organization addresses stuff like a bad apple.
Mark 52:22
Yeah, right? Yes, it is pragmatism. I mean, if you've got a largely Hispanic workforce, and the leader of those teams does not speak Spanish, like that's not a great tactical choice. But you think that through that's, you know, it might be it might be worth your investment to either teach that person Spanish or get somebody who does because that they're not is not a shortage of those people. And that's eminently very practical.
Angela 52:44
I agree. That was a great example. I love this part of our discussion. And we made it last like black and white, right?
Mark 52:56
We managed to have a diverse conversation about diversity.
Angela 53:02
There was another thing recently in the news that came out. And I don't know this company, but I just saw an article there called Coinbase. And they are a cryptocurrency company, I believe their CEO in response to a walkout that they had this past summer set like this, you know, long email to everybody about how they were going to do things different. And what he said was regarding broader societal issues, and like how the company addresses it, obviously, the racism and things that are going on in the world, we don't engage here when issues are unrelated to our core mission, because we believe impact only comes with focus. I thought that was interesting, not the approach I would take because I think that people should have the opportunity to express themselves or talk about or feel safe in their company, when it comes to broader societal issues. I'm going to use this phrase, I thought it was interesting to come out and you know, just make this statement about it.
Mark 54:05
And so did you like the statement? Or are you still trying to decide what you feel about
Angela 54:08
it? I don't like the statement. Understand it? Well, maybe I shouldn't say I don't like it. I don't agree with the statement. Maybe that's a better way to say it. I don't agree. Because I think that that's another way of tone policing, policing, behavior policing, period. Like you can't come here and talk about you woke up scared today because no black person was killed by a police officer. Right? Or Yeah. You have feelings about it. We're not gonna talk about it. We're not making a statement about Black Lives Matter. We're not even you know, talking about it because it does not impact. So here's
Mark 54:47
how I here's how I tease that out because I'm always focusing my clients around the three to seven core values, like what's most important to you And I do agree, focus matters. And I do agree that you shouldn't get distracted on things outside of where you play. But there is also this concept, there's core values. But there's also other types of values. There's aspirational values, which are the things that we wish we were, but we're not core values are actually real. There is another one called accidental values, which are things that sort of part of our past, but not a part of our future, which isn't as relevant. But there's this other concept, we call permission to play values. And these are things that are unspoken, these are things that are basic, so like, you know, one of our core values at Bank, you know, bank, why is honesty? Really? Like? Yeah, you think bank across the street is like, doesn't value honesty? In So, you know, and we pay up dishonesty over here, you know, so it's, we shouldn't have to have that conversation. Like if you steal, like, you're fired, like, I'm not putting that on the website. We don't tolerate stealing, like, no, you're just fired. And so I think the point you bring up is, as issues are peripheral and political, like, Look, we don't play politics, we that's not what we do. That's fair statement. We don't tolerate in humanity, however. And so if you can't, you have to be aware and say, like, you know, we didn't put that on the website. But we didn't think we had to. And so now we're gonna have to step up and say, we didn't talk about that before. But we are now because we think it's an assumption, a basic human right thinking. I mean, back then, I mean, really, basically, we're talking about conversations around basic human rights. No, that's not on the website. The Constitution did that. So we might weigh in on basic human rights. If, if that's what we think is relevant. I think that, like the
Angela 56:42
proofs in the pudding, so is their organization diverse? Do people feel included? Do they retain people? I think that would also tell a lot about this organization. And I didn't look at any of that. But I just thought it was interesting that the CEO would make such a statement, because it was in response to in the walkout was fueled by his not wanting to answer a question about Black Lives Matter in like an all hands meeting that they had in the summer. So the employees walked out, because they felt like he wasn't taking a stand on it. So I just, I don't know, just so
Mark 57:17
it's so tricky, because back to my earlier point around the movement of Black Lives Matter, man super dicey. I write because I do not think it is all equal. You know, there, there are lots of behaviors that you could pull apart and tease apart, you know, bad tactic, good tactic, you know, misguided, and but all in the right best interest. So that that's one thing. If you were able to take that, like, Look, I'm sure I can't tease apart the Black Lives Matter movement. But I can tell you that I support equality and equity in the workforce and diversity, I think is a really important thing. That's a statement that can be made. But I would it would you think that audience would have accepted that?
Angela 57:55
It's hard to speak for them? I would say? I would say yes, any reasonable person. Because again, I think if you're so even me as a black woman, I mean, you I gotta meet people where they are. So if at least you're willing to engage in the conversation and have some thoughts about it, that makes sense. And that feel inclusive to me, I'm gonna have to give you some value in that. Right? And so I'm not gonna be like, well, that's not enough. And what else and blah, blah, blah. If he had had a response, like the one that you just had, that would have been enough for me in that moment. And then again, it would have been what do we do going forward? And so what does it look like in our numbers? How are we retaining people? How does everybody feel included? You know, then it would become about those things?
Mark 58:43
Yeah, I think that. And I, at the risk of making it seem like I've got the right way to think about this. And I don't want to leave that impression, because I'm still so new to this. But I do think that most people don't separate the real issues from the from the political headlines and name the battle cries. It's like, you know, how do you have a conversation that separates your personal values from? Do you support Black Lives Matter or not? I don't think people would realize they have a choice that they can answer it that way. I don't think you have to answer that question. Exactly as worded. That's not the case, though. Like, well, I like to take issue with the question. Let's take a step back. And that's not that's not that easy to do.
Angela 59:18
Because it could have been he maybe lacked some education about the difference to that he didn't even know. But I think what this later response shows mark, though, is that he's still doesn't have that distinction.
Mark 59:34
To your point. Yeah. results speak for themselves. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't enroll them? They you didn't do your homework. Yeah. And or you tried something that didn't work. That's a thing that happens all the time.
Angela 59:46
Yeah, that's true.
Mark 59:49
I definitely support that approach. And sometimes, costs are higher. Now there's, I mean, you know, you think Netflix that we're gonna separate the companies like that didn't work. has a very expensive choice. Okay, we're gonna roll that back to company, again, lots of lots of expense from from a mistake at that level. So I do leadership really is about in my estimate, not about being right. I mean, we want to accumulate wins for sure. But the real leadership is about saying, I'm not exactly sure what the right outcome is, but I'm willing to accept the results that we're going with, I'm making the decision. Hopefully, it's the right one. If it's not, we'll find out and it's on me when we do that. And then, and then we will learn and we will correct and we will take another run at it. And that is leadership in my estimate.
Angela 1:00:38
And that's the important part. And I think more often than not, you will get to right if you're willing to learn and go through things and see what works.
Mark 1:00:47
Yeah. And there's only one rule. I mean, I teach a system of tools to really help people get what they want from their business. And there's, there's exceptions and rules all over the place. There's a and there's only one rule that I absolutely enforce. And that is if it works, do more of it. And if it doesn't work, do less of it. Yeah, eminently practical. You know, we have ways we have ideas, and sometimes we got to adapt, but never lose sight of the sanity check. Like, is it work? Yeah. Is it working? Are you getting what you thought? And in? Did you lose the battle? How's the war going? You know, that's, you know, losing a battle is not the end of the war. But and
Angela 1:01:28
that's why milestones are so important. I mean, you have milestones in any type of anything that you're trying to do, because that's the checking in to see, is this working? Do we need to redirect or go back to the drawing board?
Mark 1:01:42
Yeah. So do you think we're going in the right direction right now? culturally,
Angela 1:01:46
integration is such a hard question
Mark 1:01:51
we do here.
Angela 1:01:52
I think we are certainly having conversations about it as we should. I think, personally, I probably feel like the change is not fast enough. But maybe it is fast enough. I think now that we are months into, you know, this civil rights movement of 2020, as I'm calling it, we're months into it now. And I think that we should start seeing real change. But when I see things in the news, like this CEO of Wells Fargo, the CEO of this company that I just talked about, when I see things like, Oh, we shouldn't ask the President about to take a stand against white supremacy, because that's his, his voter base, like when I see stuff like that, it doesn't convince me or make me feel good that we are having to change because this is current information still coming out about the way people think about it. And that is scary to me.
Mark 1:02:53
Yeah, I hear you. And we've seen history and changes, slow changes. It just really, I I'm not the right social scientist, social sciences, social sciences, but you see the friction, right? So so dramatic change that's it's forced into a community is met with resistance and passive aggression and reactive aggression and active, you know, the whole I mean, Juneteenth, like, how much active resistance Did it have was it was two years, two years from the end of slavery till the finally finally everybody? No, it wasn't one year.
Angela 1:03:30
Actually, I think it was more than that.
Mark 1:03:32
A long time. A long time, not two months. And so I think it was two years. And so before you know, that's, that's what you deal with. And if you're going to exact a change through some sort of control order, or changing a law, or doing something like that, where people say like, well, it's out of my hands, you take the control out, that means you've got a whole period of time of people either accidentally discovering they like it, and and, and adopting it, or just for lack of conviction, accepting it, or eventually dying, right. So much of the the past has had to wait for the holders of those beliefs to die, right? Like people. Many, many, many people never were open to change of thinking and still aren't. And they will have to die for those beliefs to go away. And that's Yeah, that's it. That's a natural human reality, I think. And so I tend to think of like if we can make smaller changes that are more digestible, and in terms of like, be open to more people in your community, as opposed to dramatic dramatic change. I do think it could make things go faster because it's consistent and it's it's creates a cycle of positive feedback as opposed to creating a barrier and a wall that now people fight against the rest of their life. But like, I don't know, I don't know. Do that wide spread, because everything ends up being labeled and becomes a battle line.
Angela 1:05:05
And I think we also won't, we won't see it widespread, like, that's not what's gonna be in the news either. So I mean, I'm hopeful that there's change going on that I don't know about, you know, that's not making the news. Personally, I do always talk about individual behavior. So as I have different conversations with individual people, that is what I talk about, like how a person individually activates their own power, lots of conversations about just expanding your circle, like it starts there, giving value to people's experiences. I think that's so important. The learning has to continue about how things are different. And then the acceptance, right, of the disparity that exists in our world. I mean, I feel like there's still a lot of people who don't even accept that there is disparity. And it's there. So Oh, for sure, if we continue to have these types of conversations, and there are people out there taking action that we don't know about. I mean, I'm hopeful.
Mark 1:06:07
Because I think what you said is exactly right, that there are people who don't think there's anything going on, don't get it. And they and they characterize race relations as previous generations problems and unexpected to pay for. And so they're like, I don't feel it. I don't sense it. And then there's, like this conversation where we're saying like, Well, no, it's a it's a thing every day, every second every day, there's a different world, I have to decipher whether I'm, you know, there's a there's a COVID fear, that's why they crossed the sidewalk, you know, the words I say, you know, trigger response, you know, everything is this meta conversation of, you know, the person I'm talking to what is their filter? How, how worried Do I have to be about a mistake being interpreted as something else. And then, and then there's, I think this, the simplest thing that I think could be the most powerful piece of this is just listening to conversation like this having a conversation like this. I personally observed that, my friends, today is different, but I guess I hope today is different than it was 20 years ago. But if I had had this conversation with, with my black friends, my other white friends would have been scared out of their mind. Yeah, I mean, even saying the word black to a black person. So like, you can say that, like, I know, they're black, they use that word. But by the same token, it's, it's, uh, you know, the N word. That's not safe. So, and why people never really fully understood that I think there's some more more awareness of that, that, you know,
Angela 1:07:50
the awareness, even the awareness of knowing not to say it. So even if you don't fully understand why not just knowing not to say it, I think is definitely progress.
Mark 1:08:02
Yeah, and I think it's as good as a example of anything like, it's, it just shows that there's not communication, right? You know, m&m had a song where he used the word, and using a record, and Dr. Dre is like, no, you're not gonna do that. And he's like, Yeah, no, you're not. And he, and he relented. And so in a guy who was totally like, you know, EFF the world, you know, I'm gonna do it like, No, okay. And apparently, they got on the same page. But that was, that's a good example of like this, these are two guys who were friends. And and, and they were still not clicking on that. And so that's just, that's a, that we got people who are not friends trying to communicate around things that we think we're communicating, and we're not when we're in. So we got to have I think that ultimate reinforcement of this entire conversation is to me is that it, the whole thing is conversation, we got to learn the language, we keep thinking we have the same language, and we don't, we don't have the same language. And so the only way to figure that out is to try it and keep getting the reps and having conversations. And Sam, what do you mean, I met this? Well, that's not what it sounded like.
Angela 1:09:18
I will say that in my own circle, whether it's a work peer friend or whatever, I have been hearing a lot more about people having the conversation in their other circles. So like, a white coworker having the conversation with their family, or making some sort of a social media post and just the response they're receiving back and the surprise that they have about somebody they've known since elementary school who doesn't think the same way they do and just the realization of that, right, it's polarizing to them. So there have been a lot of just in my own circle conversations surrounding that and people sharing those kind of stories with me and they're surprised and I mean, I think it's good Because I can assure them that they're not the only one that I understand it because I've had these same conversations and have reactions that surprised me from people that I thought I knew. And I think that's helpful. Because again, you're right, just the conversation. And we're furthering it and being able to be supportive of one another, as we move to make these changes in our life. To be like, despite my mom or uncle or cousin or whatever, not agreeing with me, I still think this is the right thing to do.
Mark 1:10:31
I think that would be incredible. And I for me, you talked about the dream of waking up for free. And that might not be accessible in your lifetime. You know, what I would dream, based on just practicality is that a white person, a black person, or any person of color? Could have a conversation where you know, what's it like to be black? What's it like to be Hispanic today? And neither party being afraid to have that conversation? That would be incredible. Like, if you could do that, like, that opens the door to everything?
1:10:57
Yeah.
Angela 1:10:59
Yeah, we definitely need more, more of that. There's some there are some people out there willing to do that. But we definitely need more of that.
Mark 1:11:05
That is the norm, I'd like for it to be the norm. And it just it's gonna be so hard with insularity. Because even somebody with the right intent intentions with no one's it's like you learn learn Spanish, but there's nobody to speak Spanish with. You forget Spanish. And so so if you if you're gonna speak interculturally, you got to exercise it. Nothing's gonna happen if you don't spend your time around people to have that conversation with.
Angela 1:11:31
That is definitely true.
Mark 1:11:32
So that's certainly my call to action coming out of this to be aware if you know, there's, I mean, basically saying, if I walk into a room, there's 20 people in one person of color. And I walk out of that room without a conversation with a person of color. That was like, that was like my one chance.
Angela 1:11:45
Yeah, you know, Mike, from today, you're gonna make a beeline for that person?
Mark 1:11:50
Well, you know, that sounds weird, right? Because like, hey, you're, you have dark skin, I need to talk to you. That does not sound good. Right? So it's, how should I do that?
Angela 1:12:03
I feel like you can still make a beeline for him, but not just not seem so you know, overt, and I'm only talking to you because you're the only one in this room. Because really, honestly, honestly, the truth is, that person probably feels very, very alone. And there are very few people who would go up to them and have a conversation. It has happened to me countless times. And just being an HR being a person who can have a conversation with anybody. Most times I'm fine. And I'll just go talk to people, but they're, anyway, be the one to make the first move. But there have been times where I did not and I came away from that experience, you know, just kind of hurt by it. You know, so I think being picked out because you're the only one is definitely better than being ignored. Because you're the only one.
Mark 1:12:52
All right. All right. That's, err on the side of awkward inclusion. Yeah. Yes. Let me let the, you know, the awkwardness will wear off then and create maybe some learning if nothing else.
Angela 1:13:06
Yes. But the leaving that room and nobody's talked to you. that lasts forever. that's a that's a cut that never heals.
Mark 1:13:14
What's cumulative the least? Yeah. Yeah. That's, it creates that confirmation bias. And it creates a whole thing of like, another one of those.
Angela 1:13:22
And everybody's like that, right. So now I'm gonna say everybody's like that. Oh, wait, people are like that. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark 1:13:30
And I think that's probably important to highlight, right? How does how does a person get to the point where every moment of their day is a little bit afraid? And that's how it's it's, it's it's seemingly innocuous events of seemingly innocuous choices, that after 10 1520 years, confirm that the world is not friendly.
1:13:51
Yeah.
Angela 1:13:54
The world is not just friendly. I think people would say that about New Yorkers, and maybe people from Boston, you know, there are some places that people are like, people are just not friendly. They don't say that about people in Texas. They say that Texas is a friendly place. So to be there and go somewhere and nobody talked to you. I don't know. It's I don't even know if I could just put into words how it feels. It's not a good feeling. I can tell you that.
Mark 1:14:19
I can imagine I'm a feeling I would bet it was a sense of powerlessness.
Angela 1:14:24
Absolutely. Sometimes the wanting to throw a tantrum.
Mark 1:14:30
Well, that's that's a reaction to powerlessness. Right? Because when they're when they're feeling out of power is they is they escalate to the point of getting some sense of control, even if it is getting people just to look at them. Yeah. And that's like, when when people are in the customer service line back when we had lines. Yeah, you know, they start yelling at the customer service rep. Why is that because they're not feeling heard. They're like you're not, you're not understanding. I'm not feeling served as a customer here and I'm gonna and I'm gonna get control of this situation. If If If I have to do that by by raising my voice, because that tends to be tends to do it tend to put me back in control when I yell
Angela 1:15:05
and make you see me. Yeah.
Mark 1:15:08
So that's that's probably fair to know. Right. So when we look at anything that's a civil unrest that that's a reaction of inspiration. It's a, it's a feeling out of control, and you and you try to wrestle back control. And is it? Is it positive? No. Does it create damage? Absolutely. Is it a, is it a human response that we've been programmed to do? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Angela 1:15:37
And it does bring attention to it, whatever they're, you know, thing they're saying is so for sure. Wow. Nobody. Nobody wants riots. Everybody's talking about it.
Mark 1:15:48
Yeah. So how does it feel when somebody recognizes you? What's the best case?
Angela 1:15:53
What's the best case? Some normal? Hey, hello, how are you?
Mark 1:16:00
So normal. That's right. We want to welcome our black guests.
Angela 1:16:08
How did you get here? Are you here with somebody don't go with those.
1:16:17
Oh, man,
Angela 1:16:18
I remember I went I went to a UT Austin football game, right. And tickets are expensive, like $100. And we're like a nosebleed. And it was expensive. And we're there and they're not many black people. And they're probably seven or eight people in our group sitting together in a row, right? And we're surrounded by white people literally, like I'm not buying. And we're just there. And we're like everybody else. somebody makes a good play where this lady literally leans down between my sister me because the seats are very close together, she leaves down between us and says, Oh, do you know number 83? I noticed that every time he gets the ball like you, yo. That was little. She didn't say Hey, how are you? Like, are you enjoying that? She put her hand between the two of us. And my sister literally put her hand on my knee because she knew. Or she didn't know what I might say, right? Right. I'm thinking I made $100 for my ticket to I came here for about one, like, Come on now. That's not normal. So normal is Hey, hello, are you enjoying the game, it's not normal to assume that I'm here because I know a player. I just wanted to come to a game. You know. So I think those those kinds of ways that people approach somebody different than them happen more often than not, the not normal way to approach somebody the off putting way to approach somebody that happens more often than that.
Mark 1:17:47
So that to me is a really good example of like, for your, from your perspective, you're like, I'm a spectator like anybody, you don't see it any different. In a world of small numbers. Somebody the other side is trying to put the patterns together, and they're right. And there's you're gonna get those those type of things like all over the place, and you're in you, from your perspective, like, why would you didn't say that? And the other person's like, What was I supposed to say?
Angela 1:18:15
why we're here.
Mark 1:18:18
Trying to make sense of it. Like, there's like, there's no other black people. So that must mean there's something I gotta figure out here. So let's so let's figure this out. Oh, okay. That's the connection.
1:18:29
Yeah,
Mark 1:18:29
it's it. Yeah. So it's, I guess, like, That's such a great example of how many millions of of miscommunications we are destined to go through that's, it's just, it's an absolute guarantee. But it isn't interesting. Just to settle us on like, the best outcome for you is essentially not, you know, no outcome in terms of like, just normal. It's just, you know, what you like it, would you like an order to order would you like your glass to hold up as opposed to like, I would like a glass of wine, please. Yeah,
1:19:02
I mean, it's, oh,
Mark 1:19:07
you're not serving? Oh, I'm so sorry. Somebody, you know, work here.
Angela 1:19:18
Just be normal. Just
Mark 1:19:21
Just be normal. That's right. That's out that, like this stoner line, though, right, like, normal.
1:19:28
Normal.
Mark 1:19:30
That's not normal. Awesome. I think we've covered a ton of ground and I would love to kind of end on a super high note. So the question I always ask at the end of these is, what is your most passionate plea for entrepreneurs right now?
Angela 1:19:50
What is my most passionate plea, um, get to know people who are different than you give value to their stories and let it change Ange, the way you do things,
Mark 1:20:04
I love that. Just keep your eyes open your ears open. Listen, there's so much out there. Yeah, incredible. I don't want to mess with that. I don't I'm gonna shut up because I think that was so beautiful. Well, thank you. I'm so grateful. so grateful for this conversation. I've had such a wonderful time and got really, so fun. I'm so I'm so grateful for the time together. And I hope it's useful for people to listen, and I hope I don't come off as a total ignorant person, particularly my comments around violence, I'm, like, terrified are going to get I mean,
Angela 1:20:37
being human and normal.
Mark 1:20:41
That's normal.
Angela 1:20:44
Which is to say things that we worry about later on. So even when, when we didn't have any negative intent behind something, we say things right. And we just hope later on that. It was okay. Like, it's okay. You're okay. And you talked about it afterwards. So to say that, regardless of what you say, somebody is gonna feel some kind of way about it. Yeah, that's for sure.
Mark 1:21:11
Well, if somebody wants to continue the conversation with you, how do they find you easily? I mean, we'll obviously put in the show notes, any email address or websites you want to go to? But is there like a quick, easy way somebody finds you? I don't
Angela 1:21:20
want to talk to anybody after this. No. I am all over LinkedIn. Angela L. Shaw. If you search for me, I will come up, please connect. Except open connection requests. Awesome. But yeah, just connect with me there. And from time to time, I might share an original thought too. So. Yeah.
Mark 1:21:42
Awesome. Thanks so much. And so that's it for today. For those of you who thought this was valuable and want and you think other people should hear this, please share this with them. subscribe and leave comments and feedback. It's so valuable to us to improve things. We'll see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me, Mark Henderson.
VO 1:21:59
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe, go to lyric.cc