When it comes to improving sales effectiveness, Brad Freyer is your go-to guy. His more than decades worth of experience at Sandler Training has allowed him to showcase his expertise in training, coaching, and consulting hundreds of business owners, presidents, managers, and salespeople to achieve both individual and company goals through A-plus sales. With a diverse background in leadership, business development, sales, and marketing, Brad offers a wealth of insight to non-traditional approaches, processes, and environment across different industries like manufacturing, among many others. This reputation and track record of his has elevated success to the organizations he’s handled from small businesses to Fortune 100 companies.
It’s pretty great to be able to reach our 50th episode today and so, I wanted to bring in a special guest to commemorate this milestone. Welcome my good friend, Brad Freyer, whom you may know from our Monday morning Live Stream, "Playing to Win." Brad always seems to make success look easy but today he opens up and shares his reality of making tough decisions, handling the unexpected tragedy with faith, and what to do when everything you know in the book is not working.
2:57 Brad shares his learnings from 2020
11:55 Beginning the change process when what you do is not working
17:39 Brad talks about being in a place of fear and doubt while running the business
28:17 When you need to pass the baton
35:59 How faith is a driving force for Brad
45:45 Never take small victories for granted
49:11 The power of curiosity
55:55 Brad’s passionate plea to entrepreneurs
Keep the faith.
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
BRAD FREYER:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brad-freyer-3a5893/
https://www.ms.sandler.com/
Wednesday, March 2, 2021
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
business, people, finish line, faith, sandler, company, question, running, year, conversation, perspective, lost, working, learned, brad, life, entrepreneur, problem, manufacturing company, knowing
SPEAKERS
Brad, VO, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson myriad My name is Mark, and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help you get control of your business. And part of how I do that is by letting you listen in a conversation between two people who have a passion for excellence somewhere in the entrepreneurial world. And they're talking about something you already know something about. But this time, they're digging deeper, getting into the nuts and bolts and cracking open those things that help you break through the ceiling, and help you get what you want from your life in business. So today, this is our 50th episode. It's such a great milestone. And so I wanted to have a guest I knew that I would have a great time with and would be the perfect celebratory guest and a great way to commemorate this. So I'm with my good friend Brad Freyer with whom I host the playing to win. Live Stream every Monday morning. Brad is just a phenomenal sales trainer, sales leader, business leader with experience in many different businesses, including manufacturing and other things. But just a wonderful fun, great guy. Welcome, Brad.
Brad 01:12
Man, I'm excited to be here. I mean that I didn't realize this was the 50th episode. And so a congratulations on a great run. And I feel very honored and privileged to be your 50th guest. That's exciting, man. Well done.
Mark 01:26
Well, thanks for calling out my process for failing to let you know. Cuz you were supposed to know, man, I was like
Brad 01:34
a surprise party
Mark 01:36
was better. The streamers are coming next. Well, man, this is I'm excited to have this conversation. We've had a great run on the on the on the live stream. This year, the momentum is building in 2021. And this is just a great time for us to kind of slow it down and talk about what's going on. What have you been up to? This year so far?
Brad 02:01
Oh, man, well, I mean, it's surprisingly, it's already February. So you know, the end of 2020 was a little slow, but 21 has kicked in with the high, high speed, quick pace. So it's been great. And as you know, I had an exit out of the manufacturing business. And in early 2020, I still have some ownership, but no longer responsible for running the day to day operations. So I'm back at Sandler after, you know, having previously done it for about 14 or 15 years, I'm only about seven months back into it. So, you know, I'm, I'm rebuilding regaining momentum and man having a blast again. And I'm just really enjoying
Mark 02:48
his, what have you What did you learn last year, that that's propelling you into into 2021?
Brad 02:57
Wow, what I learned last year, you know, 2020, had had a lot of different pieces for me. So, you know, planning an exit out of the manufacturing business was one big piece of that, right. I had been doing that for four and a half years. And, you know, had some had some investors come in and said they wanted to, they wanted to be owner operators. And so that was an experience in itself. I mean, learning what that looks like how to do it. Also, for the first time, and being in a position of letting go of, of what I felt like, you know, the impact I was making it and handing it over to somebody else and seeing some of the decisions they made. And going, huh, I would have done that or would have done this, but being okay with it. Obviously, getting back into Sandler and basically starting from scratch again, was was another learning experience. And then you can't ignore COVID, right? I mean, you can't you can't play, you can try. I mean, the amount learned and that, you know, I've always been slow to adopt technology. But, you know, in a virtual world, you can involve into the deep end. And not only I mean, every facet of our business is different now, you know, from from prospecting, to running sales calls to closing business to onboarding new clients to the training, everything is virtual, where it used to be bricks and mortar, you know, we would have people come to us everything was done in person sales calls the entirety. So everything has been learning. I mean, it really, I can't. I don't know, when you ask that question. I didn't know where to begin because it's been a nonstop learning. And it's been great. I mean, I'm really, I'm excited to see where we are. I'm excited to see what we've been able to do with the technology and the tools to to enhance the learning experience. To reach people and corners of the country or the world that we previously wouldn't have been able to. It's just it's a very different tempo now, which I'm kind of diggin. Not gonna lie.
Mark 05:12
So I share the optimism and I and I share it partially because I feed off of it coming from you. And it kind of makes me realize that when I look at you, I see, and I work with you, I see this strong, confident, leader capable making things happen, one foot in front of the other, and it just, it just looks like it's working. At the same time. I know a little bit about a little bit about not a lot. And this is the question of your history over the last several years, and particularly the last year, you you have had to transition out of a business, make the decision to get back into a business that you love. But based on your past experience, you had to know that this was not necessarily going to be an easy transition, and it was gonna bring with it a lot of work. You had some some challenge and tragedy in the business as well. So all I'm saying is that it would be fraudulent to say that it was an easy journey, that you somehow sort of had some charmed life, and that you probably weren't scared at times, and that you probably felt like you'd made some bad choices and that maybe you weren't sure if you could make it. You know what comes to mind when you think about like, what people might not know about the difficulty of your journey?
Brad 06:33
Yeah, I mean, so, yeah, you know, you triggered my gag reflex as you as you shared that, because, yeah, the last five years. So I used to say, I got started in Sandler in 2003. And I used to say that the first year of starting a Sandler, starting the Sandler franchise was the most difficult year of my life, because, you know, we didn't know we started from scratch. And it really had to bootstrap and worked hard and didn't have the success, we thought we would have early and just really had a lot of self doubt. But when when we bought the manufacturing company in 2015, there was a Pollyanna the right word. Yeah, Pollyanna rose colored glasses, rose colored glasses, exactly, you know, we're gonna buy this company that's been around for 35 years, they have had no sales and marketing effort, and that's where we excel. So we're going to come in, we're going to clean up the company, put leadership in place, let it go. And it's going to turn into this big, beautiful thing. You know, at the end of at the end of year one, we lost our largest client who also made up a majority of our profits. And it was a light switch, you know, literally got a call on December 23. And they said, Hey, ship us everything you have in inventory, we bought a company that does what y'all do, we won't need your services anymore. And it was it was a light switch. And you know, when you lose that kind of revenue, and that kind of profit, it just sends you into a tailspin. And I made a lot of mistakes, right? I, I didn't, I didn't adjust immediately to the impact that that was gonna make. And it really put us in a tough spot on cash flow on, on your debt service on I mean, just on everything. And we were fortunate enough to regain that revenue within 12 months, which is a testament to the effort we put in there. But it didn't bring the profit that the other business did. And so yeah, it sent us for a tailspin. And then, you know, internal conflicts with, with with partners. And recognizing that, you know, it wasn't going to be the walk in the park that you initially thought it might be. So I've learned I've learned a ton. I mean, I got I got a lot of lessons. My wife at one point said, you know, this is probably the best thing that happened to you. And I was like, why is that? And she said, because it was a great dose of humility, that, that that will serve you well. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, there's no
Mark 09:13
way that you were having an ego problem before
Brad 09:15
that moment, that that's what it would imply. Yeah.
Mark 09:18
I mean, the spouse is pretty good reflecting that kind of situation, from their own perspective, but I'm curious, did you do you look at it and you say, like, I need to be humbled.
Brad 09:29
I certainly didn't want it. But I, you know, when I look back at my professional career from coming out of college, not knowing what I wanted to do and got into sales right out of college, I'd always had great success. I mean, the three companies I worked for before I got involved in Sandler, I went from a rookie rep to a top producer, and a relatively linear path very quickly, got involved in Sandler struggled for a year but then we turned it into one of the top, you know, five Sandler franchise. In the world out of 250 270 offices, and so, you know, when you look at your track record and you say, Man, just success, success, success, and grant, we've worked hard to get there, we did the work, we did the things we were told to do to achieve. But you never really look at, okay, what's the worst case scenario? You don't let that enter into your mind? You know. And so it was, it was a heaping dose of humility. on all fronts, you know, there was months of sleepless nights, wondering what's going to happen. And so when, when I had the opportunity to exit it was a blessing and a curse, right? Because I didn't achieve what I wanted to achieve. And so there was a lot of a lot of Humble Pie dealt there. But at the same time, I was handing it over to some folks that had renewed energy renewed vision for the company. And we're ready to take it on. And I held on to, you know, the real estate and, and equity, so that I could continue to support and continue to be engaged and, you know, and, and play the long play. The other thing that was interesting is, whenever I had the opportunity to exit, I began to look at, okay, what do I want to do next? And I talked to a lot of people, you know, from because
Mark 11:31
this is, so that's worth pulling apart, right? So okay, this, this, this, you, you didn't find a new thing, and then make the switch, you realized that the situation you had was not working, and a change, unspecified had to happen. So you began the change process, creating an opportunity for the next chapter without knowing what that look like. So that must have been very scary.
Brad 11:55
Oh, it was it was it was without question. I mean, it was petrifying. You know, one of the lessons that I learned was, you know, identifying when to say when, yeah, you know, I've never, I've never passed the baton on anything. You know, I've always taken things across the finish line, as far as my goals go. And so, you know, having not achieved those goals and recognizing, okay, you know, what, I probably gotten this, as far as I'm going to be able to, based on circumstances that we were, you know, we were a small manufacturing company in Houston, Texas, you know, acquiring it in 2015, when the oil was beginning to take it slide into 2020, where oil has all but disappeared. You know, we, you know, we lost a third of our business off of oil attrition, we lost another third of our business off of that one client leaving. And so, you know, being able, I mean, the fact I mean, no, and, and so there's good and bad because of the fact that we're still in business, I think is a testament to the effort, the team, investors, all that great stuff. So the fact that we're still in business today is a is a good thing, because a lot of our competitors are gone. You know, they've gone out of business. But yeah, knowing when to say when was something that was, you know, it was a tough pill to swallow. But then once it was done, it was like, Okay, yeah,
Mark 13:26
yeah. Well, well, I, I'm guessing the way you described, it sounds like you had a sense of like, loss, like, I don't want to lose it. This is against my grain. This is like I just, I don't want to give up doesn't sound like anything I do. Well, the way you described it, though, and especially the way you kind of characterize it is the we still that what you did was you looked at the situation and assessed the reality, understood a drastic, uncomfortable change was required, made the change, and are moving through that, as you know, we made a change, we didn't give up, we made a change that was uncomfortable and material to put us in position to potentially win on a different day, and move the pieces around what was working. But what we were doing before wasn't working, we had to make a change, we made a change. And now we're moving forward with that in different roles for everybody. And that's very powerful. And I think that is the probably the best example of real humility. Because I think that way, the way that leaders in a dysfunctional way react to that scenario, is this all or nothing. It's either I'm going to stick with this no matter what, and go down with the ship down with the plane, whatever. It's, you know, EFF this, I'm out and you know, it's just kind of either way, destruction is the only outcome that you can leave without this rational approach to, I think surgery is required. It's major surgery, but if we do the surgery, it's the most logical outcome. Yeah,
Brad 14:59
yeah, and And, you know, in, and we, what we tried to do, you know, with the investors was we tried to maintain, we tried to set it up to where I was stepping out, and was able to call it a base hit with the hopes that the structure and retention of equity and ownership could eventually turn it into a double or a triple. Yeah, assuming goes well, and so yeah, although it could have been substantially worse, you know, I mean, anybody who's a business owner knows that, and, you know, I never looked at this as an option. But, you know, the bomb is a company, bankruptcy, personal bankruptcy, you know, starting from scratch, realizing that, you know, a decision that you made, has put your family's future in question. You know, and so, there's a lot of that, that you have to reconcile, and, you know, taking the a bomb off the table, you know, hey, net business is not going to go bankrupt, you're not personally going to go bankrupt. Taking that off the table. At the time feels like a win. Right? Yeah. And so then you look at, okay, so now that that's going to be off the table, how do we structure it so that, you know, it can turn into something greater it can get closer to that vision or the goal that we've created?
Mark 16:32
It's, yeah, it takes a lot of humility and a lot of awareness to because I think what you described there is when you have that bomb on the table, the ability to be rational, is really limited. There's so much fear, that it's difficult to make great decisions. And so what are you describes, we got to get to a place where we can make better decisions, where time is not so much our enemy. And, you know, put a because you can get time to be your friend, then the options are very different. And by the way, one of the most critical time-friendly statements I say is, if you are making a profit of $1, every single month, then every single month, you're more profitable than the last and time is your friend, you can do this literally forever. If you are losing $1, every month, you are dying, and eventually it's over. And so bleed out. We, we so if you can get to that, that binary difference between losing a little and making a little is the difference between time is your friend and time is your enemy. And if time is your friend, then taking time to make a better decision is inherently good. Mm hmm.
Brad 17:39
Yeah, totally agree. And you know, when you're when you're in that when you're in those moments of, of fear and doubt, you know, for someone like me, I've never been in that situation before. And so all of a sudden, you've got these thoughts, and you've got these fears and doubts that you've never had before. And so in addition to trying to run a business trying to make difficult decisions, you're also wrestling with this head trash that never had to experience before. Yeah. And yeah, that's, uh, you know, so, you know, the old I mean, I've learned a ton, right? I mean, I've learned a ton about, you know, how just running a different kind of business dealing with adversity. And it is, it's, you know, the old adage, it's lonely at the top, you know, you, you, it becomes all the more clear when you're in times of struggle, because nobody else in the company has experienced what you're experiencing. They're still getting their paychecks, they're still showing up on time leaving on time, and then you're left with knowing that, you know, man, yeah, this is this is not going as we drew it up.
Mark 18:44
So you circled the wagons, you made a good defensive strategy that's got long term legs to it for the big picture, but then there's still Brad, Brad's got it. Brad's got a future. How did you look into that? And how did you land it where you're where you're at now.
Brad 18:59
So I talked to a lot of people, you know, I talked to to business coaches, I talked to executive recruiters, I talked to friends and family. And, you know, there was a lot of opportunity to explore, thought about going out and, you know, finding a small business that needed someone to come in and assist and support and to try to help run it, I've looked at going into a larger organization and running a sales team and you know, creating a path for executive leadership of a larger company. And, you know, as people are sharing with me what this looks like, two things kept coming around. Number one is, you know, am I employable. Right, you know, as an almost 20-year entrepreneur, am I employable to the point where I'm going to be okay with someone telling me what to do every day and being accountable and you know, punching a clock and you know, Someone else owning my time. And the other thing is, is fulfillment, your personal fulfillment? What I did in the past at Sandler, you know, the the beauty of it is not only are you helping companies succeed, you're helping salespeople achieve but we had a client early on that told us he goes, you know, the biggest impact that you've made with me is that you helped me achieve goals that I didn't even know I had. And so it became kind of a an interesting perspective and when we turned it into a bit of a tagline, but you know, helping people realize that helping people actualize their unrealized dreams. You know, and so when you're getting letters, and you're getting an email saying how you've changed their life, and how you know, in because what we teach is not only professional, but it also transcends into your personal life. And there's just something really rewarding about that. And I knew if I was running a sales team or running a small business, I wouldn't have that fulfillment. And I just, I just kept feeling a calling back to it. And so I explored different options, you know, approached a franchise here in Houston made an offer to buy a Sandler franchise in Houston that didn't pan out, I didn't want to start one from scratch again, just because of the brain damage associated.
Mark 21:26
I'm gonna say the same, I was gonna say exactly that. So it sounds like you've got this kind of polarity between, this might be my calling, and I'm having some flashbacks that are extremely painful to like, are one. And I can't go back because I say that about entrepreneurship a lot like, like that first year, or two or three, depending on the type of business and the quality of entrepreneur you may be. I definitely have a three year journey in my early business. Like if I knew what I was getting into, I never would have done it. So thank goodness, I didn't know because I had no idea how painful was going to be. And but I'm glad I'm on the other side of that trauma and the learning with it. But But man, but like, so that's exactly that, like, Oh, I know what's behind that curtain. Go in there. It's
Brad 22:09
It's funny, because there's two things, you know, as we grew our Sandler office, we had, we would have a lot of people that were looking to get into the Sandler business call and get our feedback, you know, hey, what do you think, oh, blah, what works? What doesn't work? And two things I would always say, number one is I would say, you know, especially when new people into the business, I would I would ask them where they are in the business. Oh, I'm in nine, month nine or month 10. And I would say okay, so you're still in the dragging phase. Because that's what it feels like. You are just dry heaving everyday trying to succeed. But the second thing is, is people would always ask well, so tell me, would you do it again? And I would always say no way, man. I know, like what? You built one of the most successful offices in the network. What do you mean, you wouldn't do it? Again, I think that first year was just painful. So when I was looking at doing it again, I didn't want to start from scratch, not only from the standpoint of starting from ground zero, but also, you know, attorneys, CPAs, state filings, I mean, all the brain damage that goes with operating a business. And so I reached out to one of my great friends, Carl, who ran off the Austin office for for Sandler. And I called him and it was in the middle of COVID. Probably May. And we're still in the middle of COVID. Who am I kidding? I called him up. And I said, Hey, man, how's it going? We catch up. And I said, if you ever thought about opening, a Houston office, and he goes, dude, I'm in. I mean, it was just like that. And, you know, he started only a few months after I did back in 2003 2004. And so, you know, when I made the offer, he was like, Yeah, yeah, let's just figure out the details. And so we literally spent probably three weeks figuring out the details. And he's an amazing guy. He was a phenomenal entrepreneur before he got involved in Sandler. He's one of the most amazing Sandler guys on the planet. And, you know, he basically said, What do you want? And I said, This is what I want. I said, Okay, let's do it. And obviously, it was a win win. So in June 1 was my official start day. But I had a vacation planned in June and you know, just kind of muddling through. So I really didn't start until July almost but unfortunately Carl was killed in a cycling accident. He was an avid cyclist and very competitive. He was the type A to the tee. You know, he drove fast cars love to compete, was moving away from driving fast cars because he thought it was not safe enough. was doing a training run on us on a bicycle in an Arizona had an accident. died, obviously, unexpectedly, in probably my sixth week with the company. And so that was just devastating, you know, his, his wife is heavily involved in the company. He is that admired loved guy, I was so excited to be working with him. Because we just we had such a good synergy and such good collaboration, it was really excited. And so losing him with a swift kick to the gut. And, yeah, and honestly, you know, for me, I never even took pause and said, Okay, well, wait a second, am I in the right place? Now? You know, he's gone. He's the reason I'm here, you know, he and I are going to have so much fun together. And as I pondered it, and not only did I feel the need to be there, for Linda, his, his widow, but also for the team, you know, and so it's, I'm a very faith-based guy. And there's a part of me that believes that this is part of the plan, I'm supposed to be here, you know, divine intervention, you know, who would have thought that I would join a team, you know, with the most experienced on the team that now is probably four and a half, five years, you know, I've got 17 years in it. But being able to be here for the team, help keep things pushing forward, keep everybody, you know, rolling, you know, be able to deliver, be able to keep customers engaged. And so yeah, I mean, it's it really I mean, you shared kind of the the big picture. Brushstroke, but yeah, it's been, it has not been a linear, yo, blue sky, everything comes easy, path to where I am, in the last last three years specifically have been very challenging.
Mark 27:01
Okay, so when I have these conversations that are just so deep and emotional, and we're trying to figure out like, how do we make the lesson? tangible? What we've been talking about is success looks great on the outside, and it's hard to get there. And when the dry heaves moving all the way up through like, potentially existential situation like everything I thought was true about this business is no longer true. It is this, how do you find the discipline on those who the drive because I know the dry heaves It is like I'm doing the same disciplines that I said I would tell people to do, and the people told me to do and I've been doing them for as long as I can remember. And I still don't feel like it's working. But I guess I got to hold on to the faith and keep going until one day it will, which is a very hard place to be. It's like being the middle of the desert and not knowing which way the Oasis is. It's like he's all you see is sand and every direction. Like they keep telling me like it's this way, and I keep on No, I promise you it's over the horizon. And so you've continually done that. And for those on the outside, it's easy to sort of say like, Well, you know, Brad's kind of a successful guy, it's easy, you know, he just kind of floats right through this. And I and when you tell me the story, I'm like, No, no, there was no floating.
Brad 28:17
No, you bring up. I mean, I think that that analogy, or that imagery is phenomenal. Because even in the manufacturing company, we lost our number one client. And that was probably three times over the subsequent three years after we lost that number one client, where we had opportunities to replace it with a huge piece of business. To the point where even, you know, we went out and invested, you know, quarter million dollars in a new piece of equipment, because this one company needed us to produce, you know, $2 million dollars of a specific product, you know, a year for them. And so we bought equipment for it, we did the beta test, we did an initial delivery to show them that we could, and then they pulled the plug, you know, and so I mean, it's, we had so many of these things happen. And you know, I am the perpetual optimist, you know, a blessing or a curse, I just always believe that, okay, if we keep putting one foot in front of the other, something is going to work out something is going to happen. My track record, my history suggests that that's true. Just keep doing the good stuff every day and something good will happen. And that's probably one of the most humbling or frustrating things about the manufacturing businesses because we kept doing it and we kept teeing up opportunities for that to happen. And then something would take place. We'd like set we had three different situations where there was a piece of business in front of us that would have changed our trajectory, indefinitely and for you know, Fortunately, all of the problems were out of our control, you know, one of them was a business that was unfortunately, you know, really heavy into the restaurant bar business. And we were clipping along great. And then COVID. And they all went out of business. You know, the year prior to that, it was an oil and gas company. And, you know, we were, they had huge projections for what their needs were going to be. And then it went away. And they had one vendor that they could now source through them. So they didn't need us anymore. And it was just so yeah, but we just kept marching, kept marching. Because I do believe that, you know, a lot of people will say that, there's a lot of people that are better. five steps from the finish line. But stop running. Yeah. And they just, they don't know that they, you know, you're running in the dark. And you don't know where the finish line is. But at some point, you just stop running, because you're like, Oh, my God, the finish line is never gonna come. And then the lights come on, and they realize that they're three steps running. And so I've always been a believer, and you got to sprint to the finish line. But sometimes you don't know where the finish line is. And so you just have to keep sprinting. And it's exhausting. I mean, it really, really is. And then like in the situation, you have to say, Okay, enough, enough, I'm gonna pass the baton. Hopefully, they'll keep running, make it to the finish line, and at least I'll get to stand on the podium as one of the legs to the race. Well, that's
Mark 31:29
a great example. And I think that, I mean, Seth Godin talks about that, in the book, the dip in may mean different language and different perspective about understanding that What does get hard? It's not always, and you have to make a decision about is, is that do I need to exit now? Because it's not working? And this is not for me? Or is this when it's really just getting hard. And this is what I need to get good, because I haven't commitment to the long journey. And, you know, metaphorically, I sort of say like, well, if you're worried about getting the finish line, that's a problem. But you're going to have much more success finding the finish line, if you just love running. So, so make if you just focus on running as the thing you can do and want to do, and find reward in that, then you're just crushed at the finish line. And it'll be just sort of bonus. So you have to ask yourself a more practical question. Like, if you come to the table with the discipline to do the stuff over and over again, and you understand, like any sales funnel, there is a close ratio that's greater than zero less than 100%. And some of these things are not going to pan out. At some point, there's an awareness that looks back and says, like, we really are close to 0%. And really, I don't like this running anymore. And if the finish line is in 10 feet, maybe I just don't like running and someone else can take that take the finish line. It's not my thing, I want to do something where I'm more excited about the journey and the rewards.
Brad 32:53
That's a valid point, you know, early on in the Sandler days, you know, wasn't making much money, but having a blast doing it. And I remember, you know, 16 years ago saying, Oh, my God, if I can have this much fun, barely making money, imagine how unbearable it's going to be. When we start rolling in it. The manufacturing company, it was a different fun. It wasn't as rewarding, because you're not impacting people's lives every day, you know, you're making widgets. And a challenge is a different part of the brain. Because we're problem solving. We're trying to figure out how to make stuff. And that was, that was fun and exciting, but it wasn't as rewarding. And so you know, getting back into Sandler. The, the journey is much more fun. There's much more rewarding. It's Yeah, I mean, I wake up every day, and I like, I'm excited about who I'm going to work with that day. I'm excited about, you know, the impact and the feedback. And yeah, so it's very different.
Mark 33:55
You have probably more than this, but from my perspective, two very distinct roles in your business life right now. And one is the purveyor of the rewards of the training you give people access to very much like feeling in control their life, because you give them control their business feeling in control of your life, because they can sell and they can communicate, and they can hit goals, and they can find new goals, like that's incredibly powerful as that individual contributor. But there's also a leadership function that you now have that you want to make sure that everybody's got the right role and that you're honoring Carl, honoring his wife and all of that. Very different, very different parallel, but very different. And I have to guess that that second one has a certain gravitas that goes with it. It's like wow, like it's one it's all fun and games to get a sales rep excited about their commission, like I really don't want to drop the ball here and dishonor this. How hard is that? Or is that just as inspiring for you?
Brad 34:59
Yeah, I mean, it was a conversation we actually had recently. I have with Linda, you know, honestly, I don't, it's important from the perspective of choosing to do the right thing. But it's not what gets me out of bed every day. You know, I want to make sure that we're heading in the right direction, that we're building the business that and not tarnishing the brand that was created. But once again, I kind of have this this, you know, this belief system that if we just do the right steps every day, it's gonna be okay. You know, get up every day, do the right stuff, good things will happen. You know, make the right choices treat people well. And good things happen.
35:55
How much of your face inspires that feels that
Brad 35:59
a lot? I mean, honestly, you know, yeah, I don't bring faith a lot into what I do. Because I don't, I'm not. I don't know what the other side looks like. So you know, who am I to say that what I believe is right or wrong, it's right to me, right for me. But I do believe that if you believe in something bigger than yourself, it allows you to do things that you might not otherwise do. I believe that allows you to take risk. Because if you believe in something greater than yourself, if you fail, something's going to catch you. Something's going to prop you up. If you believe in something greater than yourself, when you're struggling, you can lean back and believe that something is pushing and supporting you. When you believe in something bigger than yourself, it keeps things in perspective. You know, during the most difficult times where, you know, there was moments where I lost faith in people because of some things that had happened with people that I relied on and had tremendous trust and faith in who I feel, you know, didn't reciprocate. When you have faith that, that you can lean on that says, Don't worry, it's going to be okay. That's a huge thing. But also it keeps things in perspective, because even in our worst days, it's not that bad. You know, one of the mantras that I had, during the toughest times was, if you have a problem that money can solve, you don't really have a problem. Interesting, because people in the world have problems that money can't fix. Those are the real problems. You know, I lost my dad two years ago, and, you know, you couldn't go back, you can't buy it, there's, that's not a problem you can fix with money. And so, although money is what makes the world go round, it's what creates your lifestyle. It's what allows you to to experience to some degree, you know, some people would argue that no, you know, you got it wrong. But at the end of the day, if you have a problem that money can solve, you have to keep that in perspective, and realize that you don't really have a problem.
Mark 38:25
That's a great perspective. Yeah, I lost my father a couple decades ago, as well. And it's something that stays with me. So I be right. I mean, that is, there is no way to buy that back. But the faith question is interesting, because I think it brings in a lot of, because I'm not particularly religious at all. put it mildly. But I do work with a lot of people who bring faith into their leadership. And I always encourage them to do that, because it's about authenticity. And there is a real power in taking some of the responsibility off yourself as the only one who can solve the problem. And so the faith you can I see bringing to the table is the faith in God, faith in humanity, faith in the system, you use faith in the leadership team that you're working with, and anything you can do to distribute the load and responsibility and common set of controls. The lower your fear is, the better decisions you make, the faster you can accept things. And so it's very, very powerful. And I hear you, especially the way you just sort of described like, you know, I just kind of keep going through it. You know, I'm not too worried about the outcomes because I know I've got a good set of habits. And I know that I'm not in control of the overall thing. And so that allows you to be very tenacious and consistent and not freaked out and when it doesn't even go right, you can go back right back to the plan because look that was out of my control. I still know what I need to do. So it's really powerful. You're a great example of that. And I'm glad that you can share that.
Brad 39:58
What I like the way you framed Because you know, the word faith, you brought it into a more transcendent world, because I think you're right. And I have never heard it put that way. And I've never thought of it that way. But the more faith you have in the things around you, the things are in place, be it, you know, be it spirituality or just faith in the process. You're right, it does, it does give you a release that says, Look, I believe that what I've built is going to work. So I'm going to rely and have faith on what I've built, and the outcomes will happen. I think that's fantastic. I like that a lot. I'm gonna steal that one. Thank you, Mark.
Mark 40:39
Please do. It's my goal to help people make a difference make an impact very much like you described, you know. So that's what this is about. I mean, this podcast came about from many people saying, hey, that conversation we just had was amazing. I wish we'd recorded it, I wouldn't listen to that again, or other people should hear that. And so one day, it was like, well, let's just start recording some of these cool conversations that come about, and make them repurpose. Let other people listen to them. And so that's what we've been doing for 50 episodes of this. And it's been all over the map in terms of entrepreneurial journeys and marketing techniques, and, you know, amazing conversations and some not that great conversations. Part of the process of faith like I have, I believe in the faith, that these conversations are powerful, even if some of them suck. I also have to hope my audience has faith that like, sometimes there'll be conversations that mean more to a smaller subset of people. And so the faith is that if I put out an episode that sucks, or doesn't resonate with an individual, that they'll be like, well, that one didn't. That wasn't great for me. What's the next one? So that's the trust in the system, trusting the process, trusting the guests, trust in the people's ability to find wisdom in an otherwise rambling conversation. So,
Brad 42:00
Yeah, no, it's great. Yeah, I honestly had no idea. This is the direction the conversation was gonna go today. But it's, you know,
Mark 42:07
I told you, I told him, I said, Do not be surprised if we don't talk about anything at all, like you respect and we're gonna talk about,
Brad 42:13
I'm sweating.
Mark 42:20
So have you seen the show Ted? Ted last? Oh,
Brad 42:24
oh, my god. It's one of my favorites.
Mark 42:27
It is.
Brad 42:28
My wife and I watched every episode twice. It is so it's that good. Right? Funny. It is that good. It's not
Mark 42:35
a show. It's like, it's like a philosophy. It's,
Brad 42:39
like, amazing. Yeah. I mean, it's and the quips and the one line zingers and the under the breath. I mean, it's, it is hysterical. But it is, I mean, there's a lot of inspiring thoughts behind it. There's a lot of interesting leadership perspective. I mean, it's great. It's great.
Mark 42:59
Yeah, so that's the gift to the audience is if you have not subscribed to Apple Plus, if you only need one reason in this, and it's Ted last Oh, and 10 episodes, I believe it's been renewed for two more seasons. But just, it sounds like a trite comedy about something you've already heard about. a football coach from United States taking over a soccer team. Haha. That's not what it's about. It's just amazing way to raise the bar on what humanity should be. And every time I watch an episode, I feel like I'm a little better person. And I set the bar a little higher on being a little bit better. And it's just amazingly philosophical and delightful at the same time.
Brad 43:42
And witty. I mean, it's so witty, you know, the you would kind of you know, you would kind of think that it's going to be gimmicky. Because, yeah, you got this, you know, kind of bumbling redneck. I think it was a West Virginia football coach. Some you know, D to West Virginia School, gets hired in the UK for one of the premier soccer teams. He didn't even know how to play the game. Right. You know, he's asking his assistant coaches. Alright, so tell me this again. What is it? We can ended a tie? How's that? All right, it's, it's fantastic. And yeah, it really does. I mean, it leaves you feeling good at the end of the episode. Now, you brought that up for a reason, though.
Mark 44:21
Yeah. So there's just so much wisdom, I think right. And people can kind of go many different directions. I guess there's two things that I think are most important. One is that at a time after 2020, do we need any more suspense? I don't, I don't need any more suspense. And the people who are tuning into suspenseful shows like you know, that is not more what I need. I need to sleep a little better. And so I do think we should give ourselves some compassion. Round the suspense in our businesses suspense in our lives, the suspense or when I, when I get home as my spouse is going to be angry at me, for any number of factors, it takes a toll. It's nice to have a little interesting and excited interest and excitement in our world with the suspense, but let's be real, 2020 has been stranger than fiction and 2021 is not totally winding that down. It's an ultra rapid pace, I think we're on the right path. So, you know, give yourself some something good and stable and not suspenseful. And I would say broadly, consider that, that think about the fact that there might be just a general sense of suspense in your life that could be wearing you down. And if you suddenly break down unexpectedly, it
Brad 45:45
might be that, yeah, that's a great point. Totally agree. Yeah, consistency. Consistency, and predictability would be a nice thing for for a little while, you know, and that's, you know, that, but that also, is something else that my wife and I talked about, in the midst of the last two years was how we took for granted, those years that, that we were at cruising altitude, and things were just kind of steady, you know, when we didn't have drama, when everything was just, you know, it was just kind of smooth. And I think you you have to really appreciate those times in your life and be be more aware of all the good things, and it'd be appreciative, right, the small successes and the small victories and, you know, what's important to you, and what your priority sock?
Mark 46:50
Yeah, that's a great lesson for 2021. As things get easier, and we start getting some of that profit back and some and some consistency, finding ways to hold that sacred and, and remember that it's not a guarantee, and that we should take advantage of it, make the most of it and live a life well lived in a business well-run that makes a positive impact. And, and I could kind of go down that well. But I believe, after working with many different companies in the last 20 years, and many, many different capacities, or hundreds of companies, over the last four years, specifically working with us, I kinda have sort of this. Like, I like working with purpose-driven companies. And kind of is a weird secret to that. Like, if your company doesn't have a purpose, what the hell are you doing? Like, I don't call people out with that, because people kind of self identify about like, Oh, yeah, we have a purpose. And what is that purpose? Is it about creating something for the people? Is it making an impact in the world? Is it solving a big problem, you know? Or is it is it about, there's something emotionally motivating this company, that is really, that really matters, nearly, or maybe actually an existential level. And if you're willing to find that out, that I want to work with you, every business should have that in there in the end, but some people are not willing to go there. But, you know, this is a time to really maximize that and understand that it should make a difference. And we should be plugged into them.
Brad 48:18
Couldn't agree more.
Mark 48:20
Another Ted lasso pivot point and I don't want to spoil the scene, you know, this seemed like you're gonna listen and watch the show. I don't not gonna spoil the scene, but it was just one of the best scenes of the entire series. It involves darts. In a way, Whitman quote, and so I'm just gonna leave it there. I'm gonna give some, some shout out to my friend, Ken Proctor, who is really drilled this into my head, this idea of replacing judgment with curiosity, but a great lesson in it, what is the power of curiosity? And, and so kind of, maybe that's kind of our final point going into 2021. And we can maybe wrap this conversation up shortly around the point, what is your experience and advice around curiosity and its power going into 2021?
Brad 49:11
You know, I think it's interesting, because when you said that one of the biggest lessons I learned, you know, going from from more fabrication, we're running a manufacturing company back into Sandler, is that at more fab, we used consultants, we use consultants to help us upgrade our technology to to improve processes to do a lot of different things. We probably, you know, had a handful of different consultants that we use, and I recognized how all consultants are not created equal. Some of them to your exact point right now came in with no interest and curiosity. They came in with the cards that they wanted to play before the first conversation and so they show up and they start telling us what we need to do without identifying The gaps or what, what's working and what's not. And it created a lot of arm wrestling, a lot of wasted time, a lot of wasted money, and they burn bridges with us, we would never have them back again. But then we had some that came in, and really, you know, sought to understand, Okay, tell us what's going on, what's working, what's not working? Oh, you guys are doing this great. Well, have you tried this and that. And so that's probably one of the biggest, excuse me, one of the biggest things I've learned coming back into a consulting role is the perspective that companies have on consultants. Right. And I have to make sure that I'm in that latter bucket that I let them know, and my focus is to seek first to understand and knowing that, you know, what, we may have a conversation and not identify a gap that I can help with, and that's okay. But if I come in with a preconceived idea of Oh, well, you're this kind of company, you're this size, you've been around this long. Yeah, I know what problems you have. Totally not sure. And so, you know, even when you're working one on one with someone, and you believe you know, the answers, I think it's so imperative to, to slow roll, you ask questions before you give guidance. And whether it's with a family, my kids, you know, I've got two high school girls and with all of the, the political drama, The socio economic drama, The Civil drama, you know, they come home in the afternoon, and they start sharing opinions, and I want to, you know, give them perspective, or tell them correct those opinions. Right. But I've really, I've gotten really patient and slow, and say, Well, tell me more about that. helped me understand where did you hear that? But why do you think that's true? What kind of research have you done to validate or invalidate that, you know, and so, you know, it helps me understand and be a better father, or a better boss, or a better co-worker or a better consultant. But B, it also allows them to learn and have some self discovery as well, which benefits everybody. And so whether you know, whether you're a parent, a salesperson, a leader, a boss, an owner, a friend, you know, be slow with your opinion, right? be slow with your expertise and advice. Start with seeking first to understand, ask the question,
Mark 52:35
that's awesome. I mean, this could be in probably should be a whole other podcast episode is the power of curiosity. Just a couple of quick things, I realized that early on in my career, before I was really full on entrepreneur, I was a member of a leadership team of a startup. Well, a small startup consulting company. And long story short, we got handed a book of business, just literally like we like I'd even go to the meeting, that where we were told we were given a bunch of clients, we could just take over for no fee. And in the end, we were told, why is that they were going to give it to another company. But when we engage them as a, we were a client of theirs. We asked questions that sent the message to them that we knew what was up. And they were like, Oh, these people have real skill. And we want these clients that we're handing over in these folks hands. And so it was not the answers. It was the questions we asked that sent the message of what was on our mind what we're after. And it was incredible life learning experience. Fast forward to just a couple of days ago, working with a great leadership team, we discovered that they have a high trust level on the leadership team, but they avoid conflict, which is actually a very common leadership team dysfunction. And what you'll find in a team that is a fear afraid of conflict is they're even afraid of rating themselves low on conflict. Working through the Five Dysfunctions of a team model that Patrick Lencioni has made famous its power and powerful model. What we discovered is that it's fear based, that causes us to avoid that curiosity to steer away we have an opportunity to ask the question why but we don't because we're afraid of either being judged or seeing as, as a conflict seeming harsh seeming like a jerk cursive.
Brad 54:21
Yeah.
Mark 54:23
And and what you just described, and what I've experienced is that there's nothing more powerful than asking hard questions and getting like what is going to happen if we don't do that? Why does that even matter? And if we are afraid of that conflict, we are going to walk away we are going to veer off we are going to laugh are going to make a joke at the time when we should have asked why does that matter? Conversations getting awkward instead of saying like, Oh, that must have been you know, haha, like, Oh, that's really hard. Tell me Are you really freaked out? Is that a big deal? Those are the things we avoided in conflict. And so coming out of a pandemic year it's been a lot of hard conversations people have had to ask and deal with issues that were uncomfortable unexpected asking about people's personal well being in ways that were never needed to asked about before. And I think the best leadership teams were really good at saying like, are you okay? And the best leadership teams? Or are we able to say no, no, I'm not okay. And this is what I need to be to be more successful to be okay. And the ones that didn't ask the questions and didn't answer those questions stayed stuck. So going into 2021 I hope we can all be better about asking questions, new questions, different questions, uncomfortable questions, and getting to what's going on, ask them a question like, do you play a lot of darts? So we're about out of time, Brad, I got to ask one question. And that is, what is your most passionate plea for entrepreneurs in 2021?
Brad 55:55
My most passionate plea for entrepreneurs in 2020, I, I'd be remiss if I didn't dovetail off of where we spent a lot of time today. But man, keep the faith. You know, believe in yourself, believe in whatever greater being you believe in, believe in your processes, believe in your structure, believe in what you're building. So that that you can see it through the finish line. In one way or another, even if you have to move the finish line. But keep the faith.
Mark 56:29
That's awesome. And I'll add to that, look around you. Who is in your court? What's in your court? What assets do you have? Do you have process? Do you have experienced great machinery? Do you have great people? Do you have a great faith, a great church, great community, a great family and understand that they're part of the journey and that the there's one thing you do as an entrepreneur, to make your vision come to life. And it sounds so simple, and it is enroll other people in the vision so they can carry their part and they can share it with you? And so you have people as part of your vision? Who are they and let them help? And what are they is their processes and other things and let it help and share the load? Great, great. Awesome, man, great conversation. We covered a ton in a relatively short amount of time, I think I mean, it's just under an hour, but I love the conversation. If somebody wanted to continue the conversation keep in touch with you. How would somebody find you?
Brad 57:23
Yeah probably, the easiest way is just find me on LinkedIn. Brad Freyer. You're also welcome to drop me an email if you want to talk about your business or, you know, talk more about what we discussed today. Brad Freyer at Sandler.comm I'm about to say hopefully Mark has my name on the on this podcast but it's Brad dot F r e y e r are people always miss that first the FR ee ye are awesome.
Mark 57:52
It's a privilege, man. I love the conversation. That's it for today. Don't forget to share with your friends get the feedback to us anything good or bad? If you don't like the jokes, let us know if you if you think I'm a terrible rude host, I'd love to hear that as well. But if this is valuable to you or you think be valuable to somebody else, please get it in their hands and share it share learning. That's it for now. We will see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me. Mark Henderson.
VO 58:19
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe. Go to leary.cc