You're Doing it Wrong with Mark Henderson Leary

Cameron Herold

Episode Summary

Well known executive coach Cameron Herold boldly shares his surprising perspective on high performance leadership during times of crisis and economic downturns.

Episode Notes

WARNING: Explicit Language.  Just saying...

The author of 5 books, and a well known coach of hundreds of businesses, Cameron Herold give us his perspective on leading in difficult times. 13 years after Mark and Cameron first met, they connect the dots on what has  happened since then. 

7:30 - What is Trump doing right?

15:05 - How to force yourself to start to really take advantage of the opportunity now.

29:56 - When optimism can cost you your pay day.

44:45 - "I'm struggling and I'm not sure my way out."

73:18 - Cameron's  PR, marketing, and advertising approach, summarized.  


Get in touch: 

Mark Leary: | 

Cameron Herold: | | | |

 Production credit: 

Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy 

Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable

Episode Transcription

Mark [00:00:00] So we're rolling, cool. 

Mark [00:00:00] We are live! This is "You're Doing it Wrong" with Mark Henderson Leary and my name is Mark and I have a passion that you should feel in control in your life. So what I do is I help entrepreneurial leaders to get a little more control of their business. 

Mark [00:00:16] And wow, are we in an interesting time where that is a hot topic for a lot of people. So today I'm truly honored to have a guest that - it's an honor because Cameron is the mastermind behind hundreds of companies and their exponential growth. 

Mark [00:00:35] His clients range from a monarchy to a big 4 wireless company. He's the author of five books. I've got two of them here. I've got Double Double, I've got Vivid Vision, which I re-read the last couple of days. 

Mark [00:00:47] It's just fantastic stuff. Top rated international speaker, the founder of the C.O.O. Alliance, which is, as far as I know, the only organization really focused on second commands in the way that he focuses it. And more importantly than any of that, he's the guy who put me on my path to where I am today, 13 years ago. 

Cameron [00:01:09] Wow. 

Mark [00:01:11] Welcome, Cameron Herald. 

Cameron [00:01:11] Mark, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. So walk me back 13 years. How did that - was it -what was that from? 

Mark [00:01:19] So you spoke in Houston -. 

Cameron [00:01:22] Wow! That was May of 2007. 

Mark [00:01:25] Yeah. Yeah. Forever ago when I ran into you. 

Cameron [00:01:30] I know about you guys. It was two weeks after I left 1-800-Got-Junk. So it would have been around May 26, 2007. 

Mark [00:01:38] Around... OK. So your memory is much better than mine. So, yeah, I knew you had just left, but two weeks? Wow.

Cameron [00:01:44] Well, this funny story... So I had left 1-800-Got-Junk. Brian was the CEO, is my best friend. And I had an event booked with Austin, Houston and Dallas on the same week due to three chapters in a row speaking at all three chapters. 

Cameron [00:02:00] And one of the chapters assumed that because I was no longer with 1 800 got junk, I wouldn't be speaking, and they booked Simon Sinek to speak in my place. This is before anyone knew who Simon was. Simon had been on our board for a couple of years. He'd stayed at my home. We'd like, we used to pull practical jokes with each other. 

Cameron [00:02:20] And I called Simon like, hey, it looks like we're speaking of the same event. And he goes, I'm in Dallas. He goes, No, no, man, you got pulled. I'm like, what do you mean, I got pulled? I'm speaking on Wednesday. I'm speaking Thursday in Houston. He goes, No, they pulled you. He goes, you know, Rick called me and told me that I'm speaking instead of you. 

Cameron [00:02:35] Like, what the fuck? Well, I'm sitting in the audience. I'm like, well, I'm coming anyway. So I've got my hotel in flight. 

Cameron [00:02:42] So I sat in the audience at the event I was supposed to speak at, watching Simon speak because they thought I wasn't being there speaking. I spoke to you the day after. 

Mark [00:02:51] That's incredible. That's incredible. 

Cameron [00:02:53] That's why I remember it so well. 

Mark [00:02:55] Well, think of how much has passed. Simon Sinek was nobody. You were nobody. Certainly not who you are now. You know, you had a clear track record. 

Cameron [00:03:08] I'd built four companies by that point, but I didn't have the brand or the books or anything, you know? 

Mark [00:03:14] And, you know, that's where I kind of thought we would go. I originally I thought we'd talk about the last 13 years. When you and I last spoke in a month ago. 

Cameron [00:03:22] Yeah. 

Mark [00:03:23] But now I'm curious, like, what do you what have you experienced in the last 13 days with leadership teams and entrepreneurial companies in trouble? How have things been? 

Cameron [00:03:35] Well, I'll even start with myself on that, because I've gone through and I'm still going through processing all this. 

Cameron [00:03:41] So if I think back to February, mid-February. 

Cameron [00:03:49] You know, we had the first case in Washington was diagnosed, I think January 29. We're talking about the whole coronavirus and COVID 19 in case we're listening two years from now. 

Mark [00:04:00] Fair point. 

Cameron [00:04:01] What the fuck are they talking about? And then I, in February was kind of going like, this is overblown and people are overreacting. And I get back to work and stop freaking out. 

Cameron [00:04:12] And because I'd written a book on free PR, understand the social media and filter bubbles and the confirmation bias and people like creating, turning this into something bigger than it really was. I don't think - I'm still not convinced that we need to be in complete and utter lockdown. North America-wide, or worldwide. I think we should have probably locked down city by city, but whatever, I'm not a doctor. I have shifted, though, over time to now realizing that we have to take it seriously. We have to understand that there's an issue and that there's risks. I'm in a 14 day quarantine - self-quarantine, because I flew in from the U.S. up to my home in Canada. So I'm not even allowed to go to my house. I'm not allowed to go out into a park. I'm allowed to go outside of my yard. Supposedly there's monitoring and shit. Last night, I broke it. I went for a drive just to see sun setting. You know, in my car, I stayed at my car. 

Mark [00:05:02] We won't let anybody know. We'll keep it a secret -

Cameron [00:05:05] Right, so but I've at least had to understand that yes, it's there. Yes, it's real. Yes, it can spread. Yes, it's scary. Yes. It's bigger than anything else we've ever encountered. It's bigger than H1N1, etc.. What I've done is accepted it, owned it and moved on from that to saying, OK, but now how do we grow? 

Cameron [00:05:28] And I'm trying to get all of the CEOs that I've either influenced or coached or mentored so I've got 18 CEOs of real companies, typically 50 to 500 employees that I'm coaching. And then I have all my members of the COO Alliance, which is this network of second in commands. I'm trying to influence them to scale. And then I've got these tons of entrepreneurs that are reaching out to me. And everyone from my brother and sister that are both entrepreneurs have run their own companies for 20 years. You know, hundreds of entrepreneurs pinging me constantly about, you know, their stuff. What I've started to move people towards is keep one toe grounded in reality that we understand and accept. There's a real threat and an issue. And it's time to lean that into the future and start leading because more than ever, followers are dying to follow someone right now. In war time, when 97 percent of the people are panicked, they're just looking to follow someone and it's time for leaders to rise up. And I've noticed - I'm not a Trump fan. I don't like him as a human being. I think a lot of his stuff that he's doing is really good in the business world and he's doing some great stuff as a leader. But fuck me, I'm impressed with him in the last 10 days. As much as I didn't like him before. I've watched every day his State of the    Union he's doing at around 2:00 Pacific. And he does this address. And I'm just like, shit, man. You're good. You are. You're becoming more positive. You're becoming less antagonistic. You're becoming more kind of grounded in reality. But also saying, we're gonna beat it. We're gonna move forward. We're trying. You're communicating, communicating, communicating. Like he's doing some really cool shit. And I think as leaders, we need to learn from all this stuff right now is how to lead in wartime. 

Mark [00:07:12] That's where I started with this. I started with "this is your time to lead". Because Warren Rustand had just spoken at an event. I don't know if you know Warren -. 

Cameron [00:07:18] Of course. 

Mark [00:07:19] And he said, man, this is your time to lead. And I ripped that off. And I said, everybody, this is your time to lead. Everybody needs a leader. And so that's exactly how I'm seeing this. 

Cameron [00:07:31] But the part that I the part that I've really, really, really, I think, internalized and I'm trying to communicate now is if you just lead with positivity like, let's go. We're going for it. We're growing. This is going to be awesome. We're going to beat it. People will be like, dude, you are fucking not connected to reality. We really - to truly be a good leader right now, we have to be absolutely connected to the reality of today and lean out into the future and lead. And that's what I'm seeing Trump do very, very well right now. Then again, I've always been a Republican, but I just don't like him as a person. I just I think he's a misogynist, sexist pig, whatever. So I try to get past that because I'm now looking at him as a leader in wartime and I'm like, damn it, you're good. He's very grounded in the reality of "this is hard". 

Cameron [00:08:22] This is horrible. People are going to die. I don't like this. This is harsh. We've got to get - but he doesn't obsess about that. He's trying to keep us focused on moving this forward and gaining momentum and all the good things that are happening. And that builds a lot of trust and faith in the followers. 

Mark [00:08:40] So I have that that theme with my leadership teams lately, that it's about the truth. You have to learn to tell the truth. 

Cameron [00:08:47] Yeah, it's the same thing. 

Mark [00:08:47] And that's not easy. Not easy. 

Cameron [00:08:49] No, but it's the same thing as when I asked somebody like, how are you doing? I'm great. I'm great. I'm like, dude, you've said you're great 50 times in the last 50 times I've asked you. Yeah, that means I don't trust you anymore because we're human. And the human experience is that occasionally we're struggling. Occasionally. It's tough. Like, even before you and I hopped onto the call. You said something. I'm like, dude, are you okay? You seem stressed. 

Mark [00:09:12] Yeah. 

Cameron [00:09:12] And you know, and it was just this - and it's okay to go, Yeah. Fuck, it's hard. Like, yeah, I'm stressed or yeah, I'm worried about my dad or, yeah. I just had my full left hip replaced. And I think as a leader when we can really get grounded in reality and communicate with reality, our tone resonates, our voice resonates as real and people connect with that real. And I think that's something I'm noticing right now in the leadership is the ones who are really real, who are grounded in reality and leaning out to the future, are inspiring everyone around them with this trust. 

Cameron [00:09:49] And they're just going. I believe in you. You got us. I will follow you. And that's fun to watch. 

Mark [00:09:56] So I agree. And I had a big epiphany that started a little process that I developed called Vision in Crisis. And it's like a 90-minute workshop that I work people through to get a chaotic leadership team grounded in some facts and fired up to execute it. And it came from a couple of things, but not the least of which was I had my long-range planning for three years, one year on this on this schedule. And it was at a time when it didn't make any logical sense. This was the tactical time to execute. And I was like, well, there it is. Let's just do it. And we went through the process and an hour and a half later, I was so fired up about the long term vision that I realized that I needed to be re-grounded on the bigger picture. And so I do believe that there is this bit of a paradox of execute now tactically, shorter-term survive, earn the right to wake up in the mornings. 

Mark [00:10:48] For some businesses, that is focused and very leveraged by the long term vision. So I re-read vivid vision on purpose because I'm curious how you think we look at vision differently right now? 

Cameron [00:11:04] Well, I think the way we look at it is to be able to say to our team: look, I know this is our current state. So I always do a SWOT analysis and I talk about that even in the book "Vivid Vision" your current state is based on your SWOT: your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats of where you are today. So it's owning it. This is where we are as a globe, as a world, as a country, as a business, as a family. This is all of our shit and we get it. Okay, now that we get it and we own that's where we are. This is where we're going. And yeah, it seems crazy in light of where we are, but we're gonna go there. And now let's plan how to get there. If we know where we're going and we know where we are, let's reverse engineer that three years or one year or one month or one week. Let's reverse engineer that into a plan and then let's divide and conquer and figure out who's gonna do what. And with building a lot of trust in the team is when they go, well, fuck, I get it because I know why. I agree that we are where we are and I don't want to stay there forever, so I got to go somewhere and that somewhere looks pretty damn good. And that plan seems pretty reasonable. Okay, let's do it. And then it comes down to like, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time? 

Mark [00:12:17] Yeah. 

Cameron [00:12:18] So but I think if you just talk about vision and you just talk about the future and just talk about how exciting it is, they think you're disconnected from reality. 

Mark [00:12:26] Right, yeah. 

Cameron [00:12:26] You're a lunatic. 

Mark [00:12:28] Yeah. I worked with one to one team, it felt exactly that way. They felt like they were getting executive leadership team orders to work on products and product roadmap stuff. And this was a very sophisticated, pretty good size organization. In fact, this was a departmental team. I wasn't working with executive leadership. This is the services department. And they were very concerned that their leadership was not just plugging into the reality, that they were like, no, we got to play defense, too. 

Mark [00:12:54] We have to deploy a bunch of software and hardware. You used to build a fly there. Now we got to do it remotely and then we got to work backlog and now we've got to do this stuff. 

Cameron [00:13:01] And I think the connection to reality is just as important in peace time and when things are good. You know, if we roll the camera back six months ago and the economy's cranking and the stock market's cranking and we're coming through ten great years, the teams still want to know that we're connected with reality. They still want to go, wait, we can [inaudible]. There's a lot of shit we're working on. We get like, we're busy. So I think that's what leaders are recognizing is that it's the same process. But maybe now it's communicating it more. 

Cameron [00:13:29] It's making sure that people understand that we get it and we get them and we understand. And I think something I've definitely noticed when I got my hip replaced 20 days ago, my girlfriend got a wheelchair. She bought a wheelchair from a friend of ours, another EO member. 

Cameron [00:13:43] And we would go wheeling around the block around the park. She'd wheel me around like this old guy, right? People were saying hi to each other and talking to each other more than I've seen. 

Mark [00:13:52] Yeah. 

Cameron [00:13:53] I'm seeing a bit of a humanity creep back in, which is pretty beautiful right now where we all realize the vulnerability of our human condition and we're all just walking each other home. 

Cameron [00:14:03] And that's the other point I'm communicating a lot right now, is none of this actually matters. Like we're all going to die. 

Mark [00:14:13] Well, so I hear you. So I think one of the hardest things to reconcile is the philosophical truth of like, this isn't gonna matter. You know, we'll be fine with - to be honest. I'm totally disrupted right now. There's so much uncertainty and I'm freaked out. And I wish I could talk myself off the ledge. But I'm struggling in this moment. And that has to do with just so much change and disruption. 

Cameron [00:14:35] Well, and you started even before we hopped on the call. You said, so how are you doing? I'm grateful. Really grateful. 

Mark [00:14:40] Yeah. Yeah. 

Cameron [00:14:41] And I think that's - I do this five-minute journal every morning where I where you kind of write down what you're grateful for and you know what makes a good affirmation. And it's really important. I think more than ever to ground ourselves in some of that as well. When I say none of this matters, this is kind of a first world problem. Like, do we - does this go on video or just audio by the way?

Mark [00:15:01] I'm recording the video with the expectation we'll do some clips or something so I can -. 

Cameron [00:15:07] It's like, yeah, like I'm sitting here, like I'm sitting here in my living room looking at the mountains and the ocean in downtown Vancouver. 

Cameron [00:15:13] And I'm sitting like this really nice, you know, $3,000 restoration hardware, leather chaise chair and, you know, pretty freaking good, right? You know, I'm drinking my protein shake like we're not sitting in like a slum over in India trying to figure out how we're gonna make money for dinner tonight. For the most part, I think most of us are doing - even the companies that are you know, my sister's company went from a million dollars a month in revenue to zero. She's 20 years in business. EO MEMBER for 10 years, she literally went to zero with a bullet because she runs coed intramural sports leagues for people in their 20s and 30s. A hundred thousand people playing in her sports. She can't take her volleyball league online. OK, guys, let's go play rollerblade hockey over the Internet like -. 

Mark [00:16:02] Yeah. So e-sports, like you try to get somebody to drive a car on a video game that doesn't [inaudible] well, I'm sure that's going to work. 

Cameron [00:16:08] But she's not even sure how she can kind of pivot her business at this point. So I think for the most case, you know, restaurants like these - there's a lot of businesses out there that are struggling. But I think they also still look and go, but we live in a nice home and we can pay our rents and the government's coming to town with some money and this will be over in a few months, hopefully, you know. 

Mark [00:16:30] Well, do they though? Because I'm curious, 'cause it's like, big money to zero revenue. That sounds shocking to me. And Brené Brown has a new podcast out, you know Brene? So it's one of the things that she talked about, I think, in her second podcast was comparative suffering that might have been exact terminology -. 

Cameron [00:16:49] You compare - that you measure against below you, not above you, right?

Mark [00:16:52] Well, she's basically saying like, yeah, well, yeah. So she's saying that I'm having a bad day, but not compared to somebody else. Therefore, I will not give myself permission to feel bad or treat myself better. 

Mark [00:17:03] Do you use it? Because I think coming into this, one of the things that shocked me. Been made a lot of sense, was an economist for epidemics, was talking about the economic impact of an epidemic or a pandemic. Eighty percent of it has nothing to do with the pandemic itself. 

Cameron [00:17:26] It's out of fear. 

Mark [00:17:28] It's stalling and they call it aversion behavior. And it has to do with the uncertainty causing stall behavior. Like all, no more than 20 percent includes all the lost wages all the time out, all the sick time, all the disease, all the hospital, all that. No more than 20 percent. 

Mark [00:17:42] The other 80 percent is everybody else is stuck. And it's a natural human behavior that makes sense, because if you don't have information, any move you make could be the end of you. That's a very logical, you know, evolutionary behavior. No information. Don't do anything. And so that's what we do. So if you're in business and you have a nice house and you have a cash reserve and you are feeling a huge amount of uncertainty because your revenue has gone to zero, all your customers are saying, hold a second.Is it OK? Well, how do you say, like, you know, I'm having a tough day? 

Cameron [00:18:21] Well, yes and no. There's two things. There's a confirmation bias that the more you're looking for something, the more that you're going to see it. There's also the misery loves company. So if you start surrounding yourself with more people who are empathetic to how hard it is, you're going to surround yourself with more people that feel it's all harder then you get this doom loop. So as an example, with my sister, I had to kind of shake her up a little bit and she didn't love it at first. But I was like, look, you've spent two weeks cutting expenses, dealing with risk mitigation, controlling everything. Have you missed the point that you own a chalet, you own a house, you own a cottage with almost no debt, you've got savings, you've got your trust, you've got cash put away, and you haven't spent any time looking for revenue opportunities. Imagine if over the last two weeks you spent 50 percent of your time on risk and 50 percent of your time getting your leadership team to find revenue you probably could have. And she's like, fuck, you're right. She hated me for it. But now she's got five different revenue opportunities. She's chasing down with her list of 250,000 people to do some affiliate stuff, to do some online stuff. To do some like - she's doing some things that will actually drive revenue. So I think you need to force towards that. I mentioned a little bit of the confirmation bias and filter bubbles, but when we hear the algorithms, where Facebook and Instagram and Twitter are using algorithms to drive certain things toward us or Google. I was at the main TED conference 10 years ago and they came up with - there's a TED talk called Filter Bubbles where the more you search for something, those news sites are feeding more of that towards you. So if you searched up, being from Texas and being a golfer and someone who likes music, if you searched up, you know, the best restaurants in Texas or the best restaurants, your search results would be very different from if I typed up best restaurants. 

Cameron [00:20:08] Right? If we typed up how to succeed in business, your search results would be different from my search results because yours wouldn't have a bias built in based on this algorithm. Yeah, well, what's happening right now is our Facebook feeds are being driven towards us with more of those things. So if you're the person who's constantly watching conspiracy theory stuff, your newsfeed is getting fed more of those. I don't watch them. So my news feed doesn't have any of them. 

Mark [00:20:37] So I experience that exactly. And I - because when I describe how I'm feeling, I'm feeling very optimistic. 

Mark [00:20:45] I mean, I went to the grocery store before this, which you asked, like, if I was having a bad day and that put me in a bad mood. So I went to that - I did a grocery store pickup and we can talk about that, actually have a process thought around that. But in terms of overall, the leadership teams I'm working with are hustling and they're working hard and they're going to own the recovery. And I'm fired up to be on the journey with them. 

Cameron [00:21:05] You know, I talk to my sister about that. I'm like, wait, you were actually getting ready to do two more acquisitions right now. Do you know that the other 30 prospects you're thinking of, the price just went down by 30 percent? We're sitting on all this cash and they're not like, holy fuck, is it ever going to get exciting for you? And then she started laughing and she realized that that's a big opportunity for her. So sometimes we need someone to shake us up a little bit and show us the forest for the trees. And sometimes we need to surround ourselves with other leaders. Like there's a lot of coaches out there right now as an example. A lot - the world's littered with coaches. 

Cameron [00:21:41] But the reality is, most of the coaches have never run a business. And a lot of the coaches have never successfully run a business in 2009 or 2008. Nor did they run one in 2001, nor did they run one in 1987. You know, I was running a company with twelve employees in 1987. That market crash - big one. The Black Monday. Then I was coaching a hundred entrepreneurs in 2001 and then in 2008 I was coaching another twelve entrepreneurs. I've actually managed companies through three major economic downturns and meltdowns. But if you surround yourself with somebody who's never done it before, they're nervous. I'm not nervous. I'm fucking excited right now. Because I was building up cash. 

Mark [00:22:24] So I want to speak to skeptics on this because I'm experiencing what you're experiencing. But I also wonder if it's not my own confirmation bias of hanging around people who are taking control of their destiny. So in 9/11, that's the way I think - that's the one that caught me so by surprise. It was like, well, you know, it's just New York and we're gonna go to work tomorrow. And that is not what I experienced. I experienced people stopping buying for a long period of time and maybe I was not hanging around the right people. Did you have the same access to opportunity when you looked around.

Cameron [00:22:57] Well the 2001 that I’m talking about, that was part of 2001. The 2001 though, was the stock market crashed is in March of 2000, March 15th. 

Cameron [00:23:06] Steve Balmer stood up and said there was an Internet bubble. So that's when - this was 20 years ago. So how old were you 20 years ago? 

[00:23:14] 27

Cameron [00:23:15] Hey, you’re old enough. I just sold the company for $64 million 2 months before. The valuation that we got, because we were public and the public company acquiring us, we went from a 64 million dollar valuation to 3 million over the course of three months. We lost 61 million dollars. That's - the joke in Seattle was, will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights? So I was worried more about the economic meltdown that was happening in the stock market when September 11th hit, I'm like whatever fucking building got hit. I just managed a company because I was managing 1-800-Got-Junk through the economic meltdown of the stock market through a 62 cent Canadian dollar. Man, shit got ugly real fast. And so when all of a sudden the planes weren't traveling, I was kind of pissed off that I didn't get to fly that day because I was supposed to fly somewhere, right? That didn't worry me as much as the economic meltdown and the recession. And that is, well... 

Mark [00:24:14] Okay. So but, looking back, is it the same opportunity then? Or do you not equate. Okay. 

Cameron [00:24:21] So. Yeah, yeah. So I was coaching all my clients back in November and December to move to cash, to pay off debt, to shore up the balance sheets, to take on any credit lines, increased credit card balances in November and December. And the reason I did that was there were three signals that I saw. The first one was Apple, Google and Buff-it all announced in November that they were sitting on the highest cash in their balance sheets in history, the highest percentage of cash on their balance sheets. Cash is king in a recessionary market. So when they're building up cash, they're waiting to do acquisitions. They're waiting for a downturn. Second indicator was the VIX, the volatility index was very, very high, triggering right around when it was in 2008, right around when it was in 2000. When the VIX is really high, it means people are nervous. And there's that old adage that when people are fearful, be greedy and people are greedy, be fearful. So in January 29th, I had two Uber drivers and I posted about this on Facebook - two Uber drivers on the same day, told me to buy some specific stocks. And I remember the Rockefeller story. I remember the Rockefeller Story of October 28, 1929, when a shoeshine boy gave JD Rockefeller a stock tip and he's getting tips from shoeshine boys. I'm out. And he sold all of his stocks and the stock market collapsed the next day. So I moved to cash, 30 percent in cash. January 29th and I said I'll be 50 percent in cash by the end of February. I was 50 percent in cash by the end of February. All of my clients had moved to cash. We're paying off debt. We're showing up balance sheets. So when the stock market crapped in the early part in March, I put 25 percent of my money back in. I'm getting to the point now where I'm waiting for it to come down again. And then -

Mark [00:26:02] Right now, you mean?

Cameron [00:26:04] Well, during those first quarter results start getting announced April 15th till March 5th. All the first quarter results come out. Public companies are hemorrhaging. Retail chains are going to be starting to declare bankruptcy - are in trouble. And the third economic indicator I looked at was the trucking and fulfillment and shipping industry were down 20 to 30 percent over a year ago in 4th quarter. So all of those groups weren't buying even before the Corona virus hit. So we were on the edge of the economic crash anyway, because it's been 10 years since the last one. The Corona virus didn't cause the stock market to collapse. It was already ready to collapse. It was just the - it just pulled the card out. It was like playing Jenga. It was going to go over anyway. 

Mark [00:26:43] Okay. So that's a very good point. So I have in my circles, I've been saying these things for a year and a half. Like when were you preparing for the downturn? And some people like, I've been going to cash for 18 months. It’s not here, I don't know why. And then other people are like, I don't know, the indicators look good. This is - we're rocking along and I don't see an end of this. And so the black swan event is where we are. like you said, it pulls that card out. But I'm hearing you say that that means that this isn't gonna recover quickly, because this is two events that collided

Cameron [00:27:13] Yeah, I think this is going to be stagflation, which is a period of high inflation and recession happening at the same time. Last time that happened was 1974. 

Cameron [00:27:24] And because we're printing so much money, we're actually with more quantitative easing putting another four trillion dollars into the market right now that causes inflation. But at the same time as a recession happening where companies are cutting down, companies are de-staffing, and then we have what's happening over the next three years with autonomous vehicles and A.I. and robotics and outsourcing. As much as we're saying we don't want to manufacture in China, we can't compete. So we're gonna be still manufacturing in cheaper markets. I think we're gonna see the recession hit long and hard. And so I'm almost calling it depression like a three-year depression. With the inflation being caused because money's not going be worth as much and we need to at some point raise interest rates. We need to raise interest rates to attract money to our debt. So I had dinner with the guy in the Federal Reserve Bank about two years ago who said he sees interest rates going to 12 or 13 percent again. 

Mark [00:28:18] Wow, how fast does he see that happening?

Cameron [00:28:20] Over three years. So the idea could be that... so I'm more prepared for a longer-term recession, a longer-term unemployment, and the fact that we keep printing money, which means the middle-class kind of gets screwed. But if you're a higher net worth individual, we just keep investing our money like, the average person can't go and load up on stocks right now, right? To the average person, who lost a bunch of their net worth and they're living paycheck to paycheck. I've been -

Mark [00:28:53] They're thinking about paying rent

Cameron [00:28:55] Yeah, and building up cash. I'm like I've got a couple of big bonuses coming through from clients I like. I'm excited about this time. So I think it's going to be a really, really tough time for a lot of people. 

Mark [00:29:06] So what is the synthesis of dreaming big and digesting all the economic, technical stuff you just described? Do you think people need to really think hard about the technical finance side? 

Cameron [00:29:21] No, I think it's like, it's just... debt is good until it's bad. You know, like having a mortgage on your home is good to the point that you don't become house poor. You know, you don't buy the biggest house that you can afford for the month. You need to be able to cash flow it and pay them the repairs and pay the insurance and pay the maintenance and pay the utilities and still be able to save some money and put some stuff away. But sometimes people overleverage or so I think leverage to a point can be good. But if you're overleveraged, then you could be on tilt. I think that sometimes people are a little bit too wildly optimistic. Where you need to live within your means, you need to put some money away. You know, I saw a friend I won't say the company, but a friend [inaudible] for 10 years. I bumped into him at a party about a year and a half ago and I said, are you starting to pull some money aside finally? And he goes, I'm just getting ready to this September. I'm going to start paying myself first and take some money off the table. He'd raised about 100 million for his company over about three years. About -

Mark [00:30:29] Okay, outside investment.

Cameron [00:30:30] About six weeks later, he was removed from the board. The board removed him as CEO and he hadn't done anything wrong. But the venture capital firm wanted a new leader and so he was now no longer able to start paying himself first. This is a guy who doubled down every year, kept pouring more into the business, pouring more into the business, pouring more into the business. He was overleveraged. 

Mark [00:30:52] So what - did he have equity? I mean, did he get any kind of payday? 

Cameron [00:30:55] He did, but they get diluted. So what happens is there's -something happens where entrepreneurs, the risk to entrepreneurs is we're very narcissistic, we're very bipolar and we're very ADD. Most entrepreneurs. 

Mark [00:31:08] In the U.S. terminology, we would say the visionary side.

Cameron [00:31:13] Yeah, but that's not necessarily bad things. They're just...

Cameron [00:31:16] So the mania that feeds us, the mania that drives us forward on certain things allows us to be that perpetual motion machine and move forward. But it also has us make mistakes at times. And I think entrepreneurs who aren't necessarily risk-averse that think that they can do it, especially when you've just had 10 years, it's become your confirmation bias that you're Superman all of a sudden shit, maybe I'm not Superman. Maybe the market propelled me. Maybe it was easy for everybody to be growing so quickly, right?

Mark [00:31:49] It's an interesting kind of Dave Ramsey thread. And his approach is, there's no better way to build wealth than through your income. That's just a general statement he applies across the board. But it got me thinking about as an entrepreneur. There are entrepreneurs - and I was that guy. I gotta admit, I was sort of the double down. You know, my paycheck is not about this. It's not about the paycheck. It's about building something great. And so I sacrifice and sacrifice the sacrifice. Guess who didn't get the payday as a result of - that's over sacrifice. 

Cameron [00:32:17] What is your spouse or your partner... like, I've always regretted the entrepreneurs or felt bad for the entrepreneurs who work hard work. They're like the fly trying to go out the window. They're going to keep working hard to get out the window, but there's a door right here. So they sacrifice for eight years, but their family sacrifices, their family's watching their dad or their mom works these 16 hours and work hard and put all the money away. And then they drive this shitty car and they live in a smaller home. They don't go on the nice vacations. And then all of a sudden the business collapses or they don't get the payout they want or they sell the company, but they pay 50 percent in tax. And then... but they've lived like all those years without having some satisfaction. So I like having a bit of both. Grow -

Mark [00:33:03] Mike Michalowicz talks about that in Profit First. He's like, who's your most valuable employee? Who's going to double down when you need him? Who do you need to protect more than anybody else on your worst, darkest days? It's you! Take care of that guy, take care of that guy's family, make sure that guy's safe, protected, bulletproof, because you need to count on him and you should take care of him.  And I find that when I've done that to myself and I've encouraged my clients to do the same thing. You make better decisions if you take care of yourself. Oh, my God. 

Cameron [00:33:32] Yeah. So I think that's where I would like to see and I try to coach a lot of my clients around this, is let's set a goal for the quarter and let's have a reward for yourself and your family for hitting that goal. Maybe it's you buy the car. Maybe you go on the nice vacation. Maybe it's you do the renovation to the back of your home. Let's set another goal for the next quarter. How do we pull some money aside and invest that in real estate? How do we pull some money aside and put it in your cap? How do you put some money aside? And so, but if it's just grow, grow, grow at all costs. You know, I had somebody one day and they said, well, I keep plowing money back into my business because I don't want to pay taxes. I said, well, do you know what a conservation easement is or a captive insurance company? They said, no. I'm like, fuck. You don't even understand some of the tax vehicles that are available for you so that you don't have to plow it all back into your business. You know, but because they're so entre- and I'm guilty of it as well. We're so stubborn and radical self-reliant. We often don't turn to other groups to say, what could I be doing? 

Mark [00:34:37] So how does somebody get educated on that kind of thing? 

Cameron [00:34:39] You say, you know, one is... one is understanding the value of a mastermind group like EO, right? You're part of the entrepreneur's organization. But what I would like is for every EO member to join two other mastermind groups, you know, join Genius Network and join The War Room or join Baby Bathwater. Plug yourself into two other groups so that your network expands and then you have ideas having sex. You take an idea from the Genius Network, an idea from the TED conference, an idea from the EO forum and those falling into something else. But when you're only in the one group, you tend to find the confirmation bias inside of that one group, which can be good. So I think growing that way and realizing that we don't have to be - if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room, right? So how do you plug yourself into other rooms? 

Mark [00:35:29] So why is there a risk? Because when you put a bunch of visionaries in the room, there's a lot of ideas in that shiny stuff. It shows up in by the ton, by the truckload, you know, you're not doing that. You need to be doing that. Well, you're like, scrap my old plan. I got it. I got to shift gears. 

Cameron [00:35:44] Well, I have systems in place to actually filter my ideas. So one is called the decision filter that I take the random idea that I have. And before I start it, I have to flesh out the idea to say, what's the best result? What's the worst result? What does it look like if I get it accomplished? How much cash do I have to put in? What's the ROI? How much time do I have to put in? What the ROI? 

Cameron [00:36:04] Will it increase revenue? Will it increase customer engagement? Will it increase employee engagement? Would it increase profit? So I fill out a one-pager on these random good ideas and then I decide do I green light, yellow light or red light? Red light? Meaning it was a good idea. But now it's not. Yellow light means it's a good idea, but not today. I'll just hold onto it for later. Green light means yes, it's a good idea. I'll start on it. And then what projects do I need to delay? Because I'm starting this now. 

Mark [00:36:29] See that sounds very disciplined. And of course, we know that discipline is a success ingredient visionaries...

Cameron [00:36:37] Well, that's why visionaries should have a coach like high performance athletes have coaches.

Mark [00:36:42]Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Cameron [00:36:42] Every high performance athlete in the world. You know, the best basketball player or best golfer? Best track athlete. Best whatever. They all have a coach who can help them see something they're not seeing. The best - I coached the CEO of Sprint. He's the 82nd largest company in the United States. And I was coaching Marcelo Claure sitting in his office, coaching him my stuff. I then coached his second in command, Jamie Jones, for 18 months. 

Cameron [00:37:06] So when you've got some of the big - and these are guys making millions of dollars a year in salary. When they have a coach, just a guy from Sudbury, Canada, coaching them, maybe they have an idea that we could bring down to the entrepreneurial community. Investing in a coach, investing in a mastermind, slowing down the business you're working on the business and on yourself is probably more successful or more impactful than just plowing more money back into sales and marketing. 

Mark [00:37:34] It's the slowing it down. And because the plowing, the money, the investment is not that far off, in my experience, from the thirst for more and more information, more or more knowledge and bigger and bigger ideas, because all learning, no executing. And so I have that same fear with a visionary like too many ideas, too many peer groups, too many coaches, too many books, too many new ideas, and not enough budgeting time and energy. 

Cameron [00:37:57] So then they're not in the right group that's forcing execution and accountability, or they don't have a coach that's forcing accountability. That was an example. So in the C.O.O. Alliance, I run the only network of its kind in the world for the second in command. So we have COOs from around the world that are lost to them. We had five different countries represented, a guy from Malaysia, only one from Australia or two from the U.K., some from Canada and the US. They all met in person, spent two full days working on themselves and on their business. During the two days they come up, they have to leave the event with 10 core ideas to put in place, what the value of each of those ideas is and a decision filter filled out for each of the ideas. So they can go back to the CEO and say, here's my 10 ideas that I took from the event. Here's why I want to do them. Here's - they're all fleshed out and then they discuss them with the CEO. What we do is we then send the CEO and note, with a screenshot of the decision filter saying, hey, your COO is coming back from the event. Here's what they want to talk to you about. Make sure you talk to them about these things to put some of those in place. So we're forcing the accountability and we're helping to make sure there's a discussion happening. But that's the value that I've seen in that mastermind, is I don't want to just come out with more ideas. And I certainly don't want to come out with more inspiration. That's what I mean by that kind of a mastermind is we actually want you to put the ideas in place. We give all of our members a 10x guarantee if they don't generate at least 10 times the value of their investment. So when they pay $6,700 to come to an event, if they don't leave with 70,000 in value, we give their money back. 

Mark [00:39:32] So I'm hearing some patterns emerge here. First of all, that there is a difference between, you know, ideas and education. Like you need to be educated. That's different because the ideas - I talked to an investor a couple months ago before this went down and he said something really pithy to me. He's like, I don't need ideas. Ideas aren't the shortage. Like, I can talk to startups and inventors, you know, all day long. Ideas are not the shortage is not - it's not a great idea. It's can it become real? 

Mark [00:40:04] And I've got to see the execution and the track record, which comes from an education element to fill into the actual vision, using a decision filter, using a vision, using something to allow you to - Simon Sinek's Celery Test, I don't know who came up with that - of your way of filtering like you're looking for health food. You know, you buy things like celery and you can tune out the junk food. And if you're gonna get educated on financing and tax benefits, it should fit into your vision. And so that's the education component. And you got to really curate well where you get the right information for your vision. 

Cameron [00:40:42] Yeah, where you get the right information and it's also why I've said the world is littered with coaches is, I would say 95 percent of coaches, they're good at maybe asking a bunch of questions to have you figure out for yourself what you should be doing using the Socratic method. But maybe you need someone to kick you in the ass and hold you accountable to do the things you know you should be doing. So that's more like the mentoring and the someone driving you an accountability coach. There's still some of that's important. And I think that's where the high-performance athlete understands the value of coaching. I've got a client who I've coached now for six years from 40 employees up to 700 two years ago. He raised 155 million dollars for Warburg and Pincus, like Bobby doesn't need me as a coach. He drives a McLaren. He's got a Bentley is like, he's grown his company to like a few hundred million in revenue. What Bobby likes about working with me is he can show up and be vulnerable. He can show up and tell me what's really going on. He likes that I see things from a very different perspective than he's seeing them in the day to day. And he likes that I hold them accountable to do the shit that he's really kind of like... I'll be like, dude, you know you have to fire this person. Like you've been talking about it for three months. Yeah, yeah. I'll do it - when are you doing it? I'll get it done this week. No, no, you're doing it today. Fuck. Fine. I'll do it today. When are you doing that today? I'll do it at 2 o'clock. Hey text me at 2:15 and tell me you fired him and then I see him laugh. I'm like no, no, I mean it. You fucking text me at 2:15 and you tell me you fired him. But do it in the right way. Do it with integrity, you know? And then I get a text message from 2:15 and it goes, I did it. Like, a CEO of a 700-person company who's paying - he only pays me 50 grand a year, but he's getting half a million to millions of dollars worth of advice off me. 

Mark [00:42:29] Well, I'll tell you what. Entrepreneurs love to self-describe as not wanting to be accountable. And I found that to be total bullshit. Everybody wants to be accountable to their own goals and want to be held to their own higher standard that they sometimes fall short of it themselves.

Cameron [00:42:42] Yeah, I think what they're really saying is, I don't want someone to tell me what to do. I want to be an entrepreneur. I want to be free. That's great. You're not gonna have a coach telling you what to do, but you're gonna have a coach who's holding you. Who's holding your toes to the fire. Who's holding you to your own promises

Mark [00:42:59] In alignment, right? So like if you are coaching, do you talk? I know the Socratic method of coaching. It's the non-directional, It's your life, not mine. I get that. There's a lot of value to that and you can find some real gold. But there's also like I want to play for, Gregg Popovich on their team. It's a different you know, he's coaching you, but he's got a way in like if you want to be a superstar, you're not the right guy for my team. I want to play on the Patriots, Bill Belichick or Nick Saban. They have a system. And if you'd like the system, you're gonna love it. And if you don't like the system, it's not going to work for you. I think best coaching has that sort of, there's a flavor and there's a way. And you definitely have a flip. 

Cameron [00:43:38] Yeah. And I'm the wrong guy for a lot of people, too. Like I had someone the other day who goes, I'm looking for a coach. Who should I get? Like, that is a stupid question like, no one can answer that. 

Cameron [00:43:48] And anyone who's saying you should go up to these people are fucking idiots. What do you want to get better at? What do you want to learn? What are you struggling with right now? What are your goals? What's your squad look like? And then let's find you a coach who can help you on those things. But to just say I want to coach like if I was a golfer, I go, I need a coach. Oh, do I want a conditioning coach, a strength coach, a psychology coach, a nutrition coach, a swing coach? Totally different. So I think people don't think about what's the output they're looking for -

Mark [00:43:48] People don't know. People don't know. Just like marketing. I mean, you've got a lot of depth in marketing. And how many times has somebody said, like, I need somebody to help with my marketing and you're like, what does that even mean? PR? Your website, you know, e-commerce. Yeah. Digital stuff. But what he's talking about. Yeah, so coaching is the same thing. I would need a coach. Well. What do you mean by a coach? 

Cameron [00:44:42] I think what they're really saying is I'm struggling and I'm not sure of my way out or I know I could do better, I think. And I love that because those are people that are willing to say, I want to move forward and I don't believe I'm the smartest person in the room. Like, what's really hard for coaches is because we're the expert is we often start believing our own shit. That's why I'm in four different mastermind groups so that I can plug in as a normal human amongst all these other brainiacs so that all of a sudden I go, wow, I can learn so much from these people. 

Cameron [00:45:15] You know, I go to the main TED conference every year. Like the main stage TED, where Bill Gates is in the audience and Sergey Brin is in the audience. So 1,800 of like, and I'm one of the attendees. Only got to go because I did a talk ten years ago. And by walking around that room, just feeling honored to actually be accepted to sit in the audience, right? Whereas I'll go speak at an event and all of a sudden people are coming to learn from me. I need more where I'm learning from others. So how do I find those groups? And I search those out.

Mark [00:45:46] Well, it gets that point of curation. I always love to learn kind of guy. And as the pandemic hit, I found myself sort of distracted by wanting to become an epidemiologist and reading that data. And I realized I was overwhelmed immediately. There was just more to learn. And so when I did the long range planning, I went through all of my my eight questions of the VTO. And my core purpose is that I feel that everybody should feel control their life. And I help entrepreneurs, leaders feel more in control over their business. 

Mark [00:46:13] And I was like, oh, well, filter all of the epidemiology out. I don't have time for that. Go to work on my craft. 

Cameron [00:46:20] You know, you're speaking a lot with using terms from traction from the US. And what's interesting is Gino Wickman, who wrote the book Traction and created the whole EOS program. He and I are in two different mastermind groups together. We're in  Dan Sullivan's 10x strategic coach together. So Gino and I sit in the room as attendees, just two of the dumb guys with 64 other dumb guys. And we go to Abundant 360 with Peter Diamandis, where we sit in the audience scribbling notes and writing down ideas. So here's a guy like Gino who is like the guru of EOS traction, who knows enough to dumb it down, to just sit in the room and learn and absorb from others so that he can show up as his best self and his best leader. Most people wouldn't think that most would go, woah Gino Wickman, you're like, you know, Verne Harnish, who started EO. Verne and I are in the genius network together then, you know. So when you can sit in a room with these other leaders and learn, you realize the value of that is really strong. 

Mark [00:47:18] Well, I hear that point loud and clear. And the part I want to, or I'm taking away - and I would like people to take away as well - is that that you need to curate that, you know, don't just show up there because it looks prestigious. You know, it could be expensive in time and money. It needs to fit into your long-range planning and that's it. That's one of the points that I've - this conversation was totally framed around the COVID crisis and what marked about this conversation, It is almost identical to any other conversation we would have in any other time about how to be in control of your business, in your life. And so the long-range planning of what's most important to you, you got to create your own destiny and you got to filter out everything else that's not relevant. You'll just do random stuff, pick the things that are going to get you where you need to go and go hard. 

Cameron [00:48:08] Well, I think you've also identified something, which is that, you know, a lot of people are going to these events and masterminds and groups or whatever and learning all this stuff but they're not putting it in place. That's no different than a lot of people reading a lot of books and not doing what the books tell them to do. You know what? 

Cameron [00:48:23] What always drove me crazy was, oh, I love Good to Great. I'm like, What's your hedgehog? Well, I haven't really done that. What's your flywheel? Well, we're not really using it yet. Like, why the fuck are you reading the books and not doing what they tell you? 

Cameron [00:48:35] And I noticed it in the franchising worlds. So I started with way before 1-800-Got-Junk. I was with a group called College Pro Painters and College Pro went on to become the largest residential house painting company in the world. So when I was a franchisee for College Pro, I was 20 years old. I had twelve full time employees working for me and I was terrified of going bankrupt. I was so scared. So they had a 300-page manual and there was that there was a chapter on selling, there was a chapter on marketing, a chapter on production, on time management operations. Everything - culture. If it said yellow key chains, I used the yellow key chains. If it said pull all of your employees together and get Kentucky Fried Chicken and a case of beer, I got Kentucky Fried Chicken. I didn't get a pizza. It said Kentucky Fried Chicken, I got to Kentucky fried chicken. 

Cameron [00:49:21] I was so by the book and systems coz I was scared of failing that I learned that I took the best systems and I put them in place. 

Cameron [00:49:32] So if I go to a conference or I go to a mastermind or I read a book and I like the ideas, I'm finding a way to filter the ideas down to the top critical, kind of top 10 from the event. And then I put those in place and I get -

Mark [00:49:47] Word for word

Cameron [00:49:48] - I get an accountability partner to put them in place, and I keep a list to hold myself accountable, to put the ideas in place. Even as an example, like the C.O.O. Alliance, this network for the second in command. That's an idea that came to me while I was sitting at a genius network event. I was like, shit, every mastermind and event that I ever go to is only for the CEO. We're teaching the wrong person. We should be teaching the entrepreneurs what needs to happen to grow their company. We should teach their COO how to do it right. Or in the EOS terms, we should teach the visionary leader in what needs to happen. We should teach the integrator how to do it

Mark [00:50:29] Exactly right. But especially if you believe the data that we get from the EOS community, that the integrators are actually rarer than the visionary. Visionaries are everywhere. People who can actually put it on the ground are harder to find. 

Cameron [00:50:40] Well, not just the ones that can put it on the ground, but the ones who can actually work well with and collaborate with the craziness of the entrepreneur. We're a very, very unique breed. So you define the personality profile of a QuickStart, High V, High I - Visionary. And then you find the High Fact Finder, High Follow Through,High S and C Integrator. It's the person who can actually loves to work with those people too. It's a very, very tough role to find the person who works great with an entrepreneurial visionary.

Mark [00:51:10] Well, you've hit a couple of concepts that I don't want to distract, but they're really resonated with me. And you read Good to Great. And how much of that is in your organization now? Oh, it's not. That comes from - I suffer from that problem because I always feel like I have to learn more. So I read the book. I'm going to put it on the ground and then I'm going to let it digest. And then I'm onto the next book, which tends to disrupt the thinking from the first book. 

Cameron [00:51:37] And then you end up with all these ideas and that you're not doing. And all this stress of stuff you shouldn't be doing when you should do is limit it down to the critical few things and do that. I love it. The one that I've been hearing recently is I love traction. We use it. I'm like, what you use? Oh we use level 10 meetings. I'm like, what about the mission vision traction organizer? No. What about the peephole? No. I'm like, the only thing they use is the level 10 meeting. I'm like, well, then why don't you say you like level ten meetings?

Mark [00:51:59] Right. And so you talked about the process side of that, about being consistent. Kentucky Fried Chicken is Kentucky Fried Chicken. That is Gino Wickman and that is what EOS is successful on. There is a way and it's not about finding more information, do what we already know. It's about going back to step 1 and it's mastery of the fundamentals. That's where execution happens. 

Cameron [00:52:20] That's why companies need to hire an EOS integrator. Like I told my sister, she wanted to get a coach. I'm like, before you get a coach, hire an EOS integrator to come in and teach your company for one year and run your quarterlies for one year and push the systems deep into your company for one year so that you use all these systems so that you build the habit. And then after a year, you'll probably be able to go off and do it on your own. 

Mark [00:52:44] So you said integrator. I assume you mean implementor. Everyone's confused by that. It's unfortunate but we need alliteration. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Cameron [00:52:54] So my sister, she's a very smart entrepreneur running a very good sized company who is a virtuoso. She is the number one franchisee for college out of 800 franchisees. So very, very strong entrepreneurial leader, trusted herself enough to bring this person in, to get them to use the systems. And now after four quarters, everything came to be implemented. We don't need you anymore. We'll actually work with work on our own. But they built the habits of using those systems over and over again. 

Mark [00:53:22] Yeah, and that's not easy to do for all we just said, especially with a visionary. And I see this in EO all the time. It's the flavor of the month. The flavor of the month is such an easy habit to get into. And I was, that was me. That was me for years. So having somebody - having some consistency, one book and we're gonna do this stuff in that one book until it actually does what it's supposed to do. 

Cameron [00:53:45] and I'm one of the very rare breeds who's a very I'm a 98 D on DISC and 74 I. And then I'm like, my Kolbe profile's for 4-3-9-3. So I'm very entrepreneurial. 

Mark [00:53:56] yeah, yeah. You're higher QuickStart than me. But similar curves. 

Cameron [00:54:00] Yeah. And then because on the operational side I'd run franchises and built franchise companies. I'm very much about the systems and processes. So I'm actually a very good integrator. Where Brian at 1-800-Got-Junk was the CEO. I was a very good COO for him until we hit about 100 million in revenue. Once we got to 100 million, we went from 2 million to 100 million 106 million in six years. Once we got big like, 250 people to head office, three thousand system-wide, then it was just too big for me. I was a very good entrepreneurial integrator. 

Mark [00:54:34] How did you encounter that? How did you go out? Maybe not. Was it tough? Did somebody punch you in the face? How did it feel?

Cameron [00:54:42] How did I what?

Mark [00:54:43] When you realized it wasn't working for you? 

Cameron [00:54:46] Brian and I had almost become like nitroglycerin where we were too much of the same. So he would come in with an idea like, I get it. I can run with it. I could get it. I can because I'm very quick. I'm very entrepreneurial. And I understood business and I understood the systems to quickly integrate things. That quickness breaks down when you have cross-functional teams and multis, you know, business area decision making. And you can't operate - you know, we have 13 operating businesses. We're operating in four countries with 3,000 employees system-wide, 330 cities. You can't be entrepreneurial anymore. 

Mark [00:55:21] How did you realize that wasn't working? Somebody was giving you feedback. It felt weird to you. 

Cameron [00:55:25] We were making mistakes. We were where we would make a decision that we could bob and weave in the - it was the butterfly effect. The decision would hit 330 people too quickly. 

Mark [00:55:39] So I when I left the last company where I... well, no - the company I sold my business to when I departed there, it was the realization that I need to leave while I was still friends with the CEO. 

Cameron [00:55:50] Oh no, Brian fired me.

Mark [00:55:53] Oh, he did?

Cameron [00:55:54] Yeah, Brian sat down with me on a Thursday morning. We had our leadership team meeting at the Vancouver Club. We're still friends to this day, but he sat me down and he goes, Dude, we can't do this anymore. He goes, you're not - you don't have the level of detail orientation and precision that we now need to go from 100 million to a billion. And I knew he was - I told his assistant the night before I go, Brian's firing me. She's like, shut up, go home, spend time with your family. You're good. I knew it was breaking down because I could see that I couldn't run a hundred... I couldn't run a billion dollar company. And that's where we had to go, right? They're now at 450 million. I was the guy to get us from the 2 million to 106 million. But I wasn't the guy to go for a hundred million to the billion.

Mark [00:56:37] Is that hard for you?

Cameron [00:56:38] Oh, it was brutal. I spoke to your chapter two weeks after that.

Mark [00:56:42] That's impressive. You know, I didn't get a sense of somebody who was healing through the wounds. 

Cameron [00:56:49] I still bleed blue. I built the company, right? As well, like, I was also such a huge part of that culture. If you read Brian's book, WTF, Willing to Fail, my name is through throughout the book. Like I love the organization. 

Mark [00:57:07] You know, there's something so beautiful about that transparency to be able to talk about that, because I think that change -

Cameron [00:57:16] Oh, I cried for months. Sobbing like a divorce, I got like a real divorce from your spouse. Sobbing. Death of a child crying. It was fucking hard because it had been my life. And I learned some stuff from that as well, though. That's not healthy to have a brand. Even if you're the CEO become your - It's not you. It's just what you do to make money. 

Mark [00:57:40] I'm laughing because that is intellectually easy to understand and emotionally like really hard, especially when you do something you love. If you have a job that's kind of like technical and you're just doing the thing and it's producing, It's easier to create a separation. But when you tap into a passion where like you are making a difference. The ability to separate yourself from your work. Like, I'm not truly sure it's possible. 

Cameron [00:58:04] Well it is. It is very possible. And I've coached a lot of people through it. Now, it's only possible for me because I hit rock bottom. So, when you're fired from the company that you are have built as your identity. And when one of your best friends says to you, who works at the company as well, says to you, Cameron, you're fucking boring. All you have to talk about is 1-800-Got-Junk. You have nothing left in your life except that. That was three months before I got fired. You realize, wow. Like I don't - if you were an accountant or a lawyer or a dentist or a doctor or a teacher. I don't want to hear about your job all day long. Then who the hell wants to hear about 1-800-Got-Junk all day long. But I didn't have - I wasn't running marathons. I wasn't learning how to play guitar. And I wasn't going to Burning Man. And I wasn't involved in activities. I wasn't going to mastermind groups. I wasn't watching movies. I wasn't reading books. I wasn't doing anything for fun. So I don't have anything to talk about. 

Cameron [00:59:03] I used to pride myself in I never watch TV shows or movies, so I couldn't even talk to you about the latest season of Ozarks, which is blowing my fucking mind. He's in 10 episodes, season 3, episode 10 last night. I'm like, what Like I can actually talk about other things now, but I can still be proud of what I'm building. But it's not my identity anymore. 

Mark [00:59:25] So I'm really glad you said that because it hits a nerve and it speaks to a large extent where I am right now. I'm really developing out my skill set for this current chapter. I mean, I've done lots of things for the last 20 years. The last three years is a very short amount of time to be doing what I've been doing. At least it feels that way. And man, it resonates, you know. Yeah, that's - I identify like what? I don't know. Watching TV. 

Cameron [00:59:48] I'd like to talk to you about your golf game. You got a set of golf clubs behind you. I'd rather know about like, what's your favorite golf course you've played recently? And who you played golf than, you know...

Mark [01:00:00] Full disclosure, this shouldn't be surprising that I haven't played with them in over two years. They're sitting there, I put them up and I put them up there and I'm glad that you called them out because I thought, I wonder if I put them up, if it will create a conversation. It did.

Cameron [01:00:12] No, you got it. You got to go play golf. Like, why don't you go play golf this month somewhere? 

Mark [01:00:17] Well, because of social distancing.

Cameron [01:00:20] Oh the golf course. Are they not still open where you are?

Mark [01:00:24] I don't know. I never even thought to ask. I know that the tournament sare canceled. It never ever occurred to me...

Cameron [01:00:28] I would go check. I would either find a driving range or something or even go. I don't know, I would find somewhere. And then as soon as we are available to go back to work, I would get yourself back to go golf. 

Cameron [01:00:40] You got to just find somebody to go play golf with at some point, because that's what actually connects us to reality. My grandfather was the CEO of a major pharmaceutical company. So he built up like a, you know, multi ten thousand person company back in the 50s and 60s. And I remember my grandfather passing the story on to my dad, which he passed on to me, which was I need to take time to play golf with my friends to disconnect from work so that I can show up at work as a better person. And then my dad was talking to me on the golf course one time and he said, oh, grab your phone and do something. I'm like, I don't take my phone on the golf course. My dad's like, why? I said, because I need to build a disconnect with work so I can show up as a better person. He kind of laughed and he remembered his dad's quote. But I think there's like, I'm thinking about an EO guy that I played golf with in Philadelphia. I played Merion East, which is one of the top golf courses in North America. These gnarly sand traps with fur on the ridges of them. And then we went and had like a cheesesteak hoagie together. Like it was just a fun day. And I went to spoke to his chapter. 

Cameron [01:01:42] I played golf with EOers in Atlanta. Yeah. You got to go play golf more. Let's do it all. I'll fly to Houston and we'll play golf together. But we've got to do a podcast interview on the golf course. 

Mark [01:01:56] Okay.

Cameron [01:01:42] Or after golf?

Mark [01:01:56] Yeah, we can definitely make that happen. So that Internet connection dropped, just threw me off. So what are you thinking about for business owners now, given all this? It's business as usual. Just, you know, just the same. 

Cameron [01:02:18] I don't think it's business as usual. You know, I've got a client that I coach in Columbia who's got 800 employees, and he's moved all 800 employees from a physical one location building. It's s700 of them working from home within a week. And he's got the last hundred people working from home now. Some of them didn't even have Wi-Fi at home. He had to set them up with Wi-Fi. I think businesses are going to become much more virtual than they've ever been. I quote, We will start seeing major corporations go with virtual employees way faster than they were ever thinking of. I think we're going to see freelancers in the gig economy explode where people will now say, you know what, I think I'm going to go live in Bali for six months and I'll work for IBM from Bali and Bali will be OK with it. I think we're going to see a lot more people leveraging, you know, tools like Slack and Asana and Zoom to actually run a business and communicate with each other. So I think we'll see a lot more of that, a lot less than location-based. I think we'll see the speaking industry completely shift from conferences and full-time events to virtual events and online events that will explode. 

Mark [01:03:20] You know, I do think, as I observe pretty quickly working with teams to try to build what we call in the EOS, the reverse accountability chart, and that is simply structure first, people second. Like, your business under certain circumstances is going to look like what? And let's rather than sort of let the air out of the tires, let's build a plan for a structure that meets our goals for the business and for our clients in the new circumstances and simply you used to look at revenue at a 10 percent reduction, a 10 percent increase, a 50 percent - 100 percent increase for some companies, 80 percent or a 100 percent reduction of revenue, whatever those scenarios are. And that's just the mathematical piece. But right away you start seeing, well, it's a virtual world. I used to have a division director in every city in Texas. Well, I don't need more than one because there are no cities in terms of on the ground. Everything's virtual. So does the new structure look different now? 

Cameron [01:04:17] I think all of that stuff is going to change. And one of my employees came to me, though, back in November and said, hey, do you mind if I go and live in Portugal for three months and work from there? I'm like, I don't even know where you are now. Are you in Dallas? He says, no I'm in Sedona. I'm like, I thought you're in Dallas. He was like, I was in Dallas last week. I'm like, if I don't know where you are now, why do I care if it's Portugal or Sedona or Dallas? As long as you're over video and you're getting your work done, he's still in parts. He's still in Portugal. It's April. He's been in Portugal now for six months and he's cranking, doing huge numbers and he's feeling good about himself and he likes his life. And he's now setting up to become a global citizen and no longer even live in the US. I think all that's going to change. 

Mark [01:04:58] Yeah. So that was an early sort of conventional wisdom. People were saying right away that now that everybody's working from home, there's no excuse for people who said it wouldn't work. 

Cameron [01:05:11] I do think that we're going to see a couple of big changes. I think we're going to see a very, very large bump in the amount of people getting divorced over the next six months because people are going to drive themselves fucking crazy being with their spouse. I think we're gonna see the bump in the baby boom like with a lot more time for people to have sex during the day. And I think we're going to see a lot of relationships that were just getting started that are going to accelerate. And I think we're going to see a lot of the people that we're dating are gonna get engaged way faster because they now are dating, but they're living together like they didn't want to be in different houses and social isolation. So they're socially isolating together. Yeah, we're going to see a faster acceleration on engagements and marriage, a faster acceleration on divorce and a baby boom starting in nine months. 

Mark [01:05:59] Wow. Yeah. Different world, different personal dynamics. I mean, it's almost the next evolution of - what do they call it in the EO world, like your work day ended and then you had your home life. And now it's kind of this blended, you know, you work a little bit at home and you do a little bit of home at work. And now it's sort of completely shattered the boundaries. 

Cameron [01:06:20] Yeah, I've worked from home for 13 years. So there's not a lot that's new to me right now other than, you know, there's not a lot that's new. I've worked from home and over video like I coach clients in 26 countries over video for 13 years. So for me, I'm pretty OK with all of this. For some people, this is all new. I really feel for the people who have kids and young kids with minor 19 and 17. So when they wake up. They kind of walk in and they go like this, which is mean, like, are you on a webinar or a podcast or they'll just kind of look at me and they'll realize I'm just on a normal coaching call. Coaching calls, they can interrupt me when I'm on the webinar or a podcast. It's like they don't fucking say a thing. They just walk around like birds. But if I got a 4-year-old kid...

Mark [01:07:09] Yeah. So we're seeing that. We're seeing the kids jump into the camera frame all the time. And I work with leadership teams all day long. And I mean, we're in session six, seven, eight, nine hours. And the odds that we're not getting interrupted by a dog, a delivery, a kid in the middle of a really serious strategic planning is basically zero. That's happening. 

Cameron [01:07:29] Exactly. Yeah, I saw a pretty funny meme about that a couple of days ago. It's something around kids and teachers. I forgot exactly how it went. But it was like, you know, parents, well you're about to find out parents that teachers weren't the problem. It's like my kid's teacher is such a jerk, it's like, no, my kid's the jerk. I get it now.

Mark [01:07:55] So funny. I think that's really a lot of gratitude going back to teachers. I've heard a lot of that and I'm looking forward to, hopefully that having some lasting impact, I have a good friend who does a lot of motivational speaking and teaching kind of to some extent in the realm of what we do for teachers and does a lot of in-service days. 

Cameron [01:08:13] And I think it's this I think this will actually be the massive shift to the post-secondary system. This could mean the start of the collapse of the post-secondary system

Mark [01:08:26] Post-secondary meaning college equivalent -

Cameron [01:08:28] College and universities. Because the reality is for the vast majority, 80 percent of kids, they don't need to go on to college and university. It's a waste of time. It's a waste of money. They come out with all kinds of debt. Lots of theory, no experience. What they're realizing now is they're at home and they can learn remotely. They can be remote. And companies are realizing that they can have remote people. I think we're going to see that that whole system starts to actually kind of perpetuate over the next few years. 

Mark [01:08:53] Yeah. I hadn't thought of that because you had mentioned that and I've seen you speak many times in. You did get a soapbox moment a few years ago about that subject. It got me thinking and I observed that there's a two ends of the spectrum on education. I think one is sort of what I call the art school approach in our school education. And there is a body of knowledge education. So at the body of knowledge side. It's your attorneys, it's your doctors. It's there's your credential in and of itself has a meaning.

Cameron [01:09:25] There's the credentialed side. Yes.

Mark [01:09:28] And the other and there's sort of this art school side, which is the far end. And in the middle there's kind of everything between which is like business and other liberal arts. And the difference is that the credential, the work product has intrinsic value.  And the other side is I just need you to do the work. 

Cameron [01:09:45] Well that's what I mean by about 90 percent don't really. It's only that, right? The engineers, the doctors, the lawyers that do. But I'll tell you, I think even that niche that's 20 years out, though. That niche being disintermediated and going back to more of The Apprentice model. I think we're going to start to see a shift back to some of The Apprentice thing where people don't need to go and do a four-year law degree or a four year whatever degree. 

Cameron [01:10:11] They'll find ways to get around that because companies will realize that they could put money into the employees instead of the employees like  the ROI isn't there. You're gonna go to an undergrad for four years and be out of pocket a hundred grand. But you're going to go to a law degree for two more years and get a pocket another hundred grand. Now you're out of pocket 200 grand. So now you have to go work somewhere and have after-tax dollars to pay back that hundred or 200 grand. 

Cameron [01:10:36] That's going to take you six years. So now you've done 12 years of education and payback to be at zero. What the fuck? What am I going to? Why would I spend 12 years to go no further ahead economically? People are just going to opt out of that world. 

Mark [01:10:51] Yeah. So I'm curious how it'll evolve, because I've predicted that the way I've described is it's entrepreneurial education and it's kind of that art school's perspective, which is I'm ambitious. I need to be productive and the consumer of my work product in marketing, gig economy jobs, is discerning around pragmatism. I want to buy at a reasonable price the best product I can get. And I don't need the college education part of that. I just need your portfolio. I need your availability. I need a reasonable rate. And so it's extremely pragmatic. 

Cameron [01:11:23] And we'll plug you into our online training program where we're going to give you seven business skills this quarter and seven more business skills next quarter. Teamwork communication skills using online and Udemy and like all of this content that's now available and the ability to learn and collaborate remotely is I think is going to completely change everything. 

Mark [01:11:41] Yeah. And I do agree that working back from this productivity consumer, it's evolving. You have to be pretty sophisticated to buy. I think if you're the company you describe with all those resources is ahead of the curve. They know when they've invested. They can do that. 

Cameron [01:11:56] And the students now are being conditioned. So my son is in first-year university and commerce isn't business. And he's got to do April, May or sorry, April. And I guess he's done it in April. So he's doing part of March and all of April remote. So all of his learning, he's watching his professors online. He's reading content online, watching videos online, doing tests online. That's conditioning him to a form of online learning that doesn't require him to go and sit in university classes all year. We're teaching them a different model without even realizing we're actually hurting the system we're trying to take online for right now. 

Mark [01:12:32] And I think it's good. We'll put a lot of power in the consumer to move fast, get what they need,

Cameron [01:12:39] and then families are going, wait, so my 8 and 12-year-old are all doing online learning right now and I can work remote for my company and live in Bali. Why don't I unplug my whole family and move to Bali and take my two kids out of elementary school? They can learn online then I can work remote. 

Mark [01:12:54] Yeah. And if I change the economy, I might hire a nanny with almost no cost, relatively speaking. But there's a whole new world,

Cameron [01:13:05] Nannies in Indonesia are 5,000 dollars a year and you still get paid in the US. This is really some cool stuff started to happen. 

Mark [01:13:13] Well, I know you need to get some other things with your day. I have a few things as well, but I do not want to get out of here without asking this or this topic. You have always had a lot of passion around publicity and PR and leveraging that. I see an - I feel an opportunity around PR right now. Like, when people are hungry for leadership, they want direction and it's a disrupted, willing economy to listen. And the opportunity has never been greater to share and connect. How do you think about PR? LinkedIn videos, webinars, access to media? What's your whole take on that right now if you maximize PR? 

Cameron [01:14:00] Sure. So we've got public relations which is being covered in the news by someone else, and then we have social media platforms that are allowing us to become our own publisher of our own content as our own though leaders. Two very different things.

[01:14:15] I'll cover the traditional press first, which is being covered in a newspaper or magazine and TV radio, blogger, podcaster, eZines where someone is covering you and exposing your content. So there's no such thing as investigative journalism anymore. You know, the vast majority of news outlets can't afford to send someone out to go find the story. So they're taking the stories that are placed in their lap that are good ones and they're covering those stories. They're following the path of least resistance. And media outlets only make money doing one thing. They only make money from advertising. They don't make money from selling their cause. The podcasts, they're selling their magazine or selling their newspaper. They usually make money from advertising or monetizing their audience. And the only way to have an audience or advertising is they have good content to cover. So you're doing them a favor to raise their ratings so they can sell more of their stuff. So I think that's easier than ever to get that. Where most businesses miss the point is they think that if I get covered in Forbes magazine or if I get covered in The New York Times or if I get on, you know, a TV show like Squawk Box, that that it's going to change everything. No, it will change nothing. That's like putting a log on a fire and then hoping that it will burn. You just kind of put a log in the fireplace. But now we have the news. You poured gas on the log. And that will make it ignite. So the story is the log, the gas that you pour on, it is placing that story on Facebook three times on LinkedIn, five times, on Twitter five times, and then by buying ad traffic towards it. So more people see that story. And then by sending the link out that's tied to your SEO, tied to your press page on your Web site, sending that link out to other news outlets and sending that link out to potential employees and all of your customers that amplify that story. That's when PR becomes really, really powerful. 

Mark [01:16:13] So what I hear about that is it's programmatic, disciplined activity that requires somebody to do it. It's not a one-shot thing. You got to put some consistency, discipline, put it in the hands of somebody. You can repetitively tell the story or do the actions. 

Cameron [01:16:34] Yeah. So so that's where we call the digital trifecta is the amplification of the media. 

Cameron [01:16:40] Right, so you have your if I think about that, the trifecta being my earned media, that's the press coverage that I get. And then I'm going to take that press coverage and place it on my social media platforms. I going to place it on my Web site. That's my owned media. And then I have my paid media, which is all the ad traffic that I'm going to drive towards it. It's the intersection of those three things that really make PR really powerful. And then if we switch to the social media platforms and becoming a publisher of your own content, it's how do I publish content and leverage it and monetize it in multiple ways. So as an example, I will do a video on Facebook live. I will then download that video using a free Facebook downloader and I'll upload that video onto Instagram stories and onto LinkedIn. So that same video is being shared on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, all right?  And then I can buy traffic towards that video so more people see it. But then that video is also transcribed using So while I'm doing the video, it's transcribed on Otter and automatically sent over to my team using Zappier. So once it's done on Otter, they get a zap with the content of it. And that goes to the publishing team who creates a blog piece. And then the blog content is straight for 10 different Twitter feed posts. So my one video is used four times, traffics towards it,  repurposes blog content, repurposes Twitter content and then Otter drops into to a Dropbox folder. When I do my next books, it can all be indexed on keywords and I've got all the content already ready to go. 

Mark [01:18:12] So it's so labor intensive, highly automated, very repetitive. 

Cameron [01:18:17] Very, very, very automated. Very repetitive. Here's another example. So if I was going to sit and do some videos right now, I'm not going to do one video on Facebook. 

[01:18:26] I'm going to sit down and I'll do two videos on Facebook wearing this shirt and glasses, and then I'll do two more videos right now wearing this shirt. And then I'll swap my shirt and I'll change chairs and I'll do two videos wearing a new shirt and then I'll change chairs and I'll put my glasses on and two more videos and then I'll change locations in the house. I'll put on a sweater and then I'll go up and shave. 

Mark [01:18:47] OK. 

Cameron [01:18:48] So I can do 30 videos in an hour. And now I have like a month's worth of Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, videos done and a month's worth of blog posts already we've been redone and it's only taken me an hour to do it. So it's the thinking through strategically of the amplification and the kind of automation of stuff to repurpose. Yeah. And it's also me being a classic C student who's not worried about perfect. I'm worried about momentum creating momentum. I don't need the perfect video. I just need a lot of videos. I don't need the perfect blog I just need a lot of blogging. I think so often people want to have like everything framed, everything done. They don't get enough of it out, but momentum creates momentum. 

Mark [01:19:36] So one of the things that crossed my mind on that content is if you're programming your own content, you speak to what's most material on the PR side. Maybe I saw you on a TV clip and the particular topic opened up with email, like, I forgot the exact question, but you know how not to send bad emails.

Mark [01:19:55] And it was this is your bad, best, worst practices for emails. And that seemed a little off-center for CEO coaching. Was that on center? Is that off-center because it got your attention. How do you think about things about the exact, precise message. 

Cameron [01:20:11] So my core purpose is helping entrepreneurs make their dreams happen. That's why I do what I do. I've always seen the entrepreneur like a fly trying to get out the window. And if they work harder and they work harder and they work harder, look out the window. But I see a door right here that's open. If they just fly out the door, they'll get out. So as long as everything I do helps them, makes their dreams happen, then it's consistent. So if helping them write better emails helps them grow their business, that's consistent with helping them manage meetings is consistent with growing their second in command. That's consistent Doing speaking events and delivering value, that's consistent. Writing my books, that's consistent. So what I don't do is I don't work with government. I don't work with big corporate audiences. I don't help them with I.T. I suck at finance. So as long as I stay in my lane of operations, execution, culture growth, people, how to get more shit done with less people faster. And I give them the quick, simple systems to scale. It's good. I'm not trying to replicate myself. I'm not trying to build a team of coaches. I don't want to systemized what I do because what I do isn't really system sizable. It's just a lot of these quick little hacks that you can't you know, or maybe I could, but I've shown a desire to. Yeah, well I'm always trying to help. So if I if that one message gets shared and some people grow from a grade, if that grows my brand and then that brand comes back to it, sells books and it gets me speaking, gets me coaching right? 

Mark [01:21:34] Well, it's that authenticity. And the theme that keeps coming back, this whole conversation has been the intensity might be changing. Some of the content might be changed, but the process is exactly the same. You have to know who you are. You have to know where you're going. You got to double down on it. You've got to tune everything else out. And if you're going to be on TV and if you're going to be on a podcast and you're gonna be making videos, they have to tell the truth about you. 

Mark [01:21:57] And you have to know the truth about you

Cameron [01:22:00] For sure.

Mark [01:22:01] Well, man, that's probably a good place to stop as any. Anything else you want to share before we get out of here? 

Cameron [01:22:06] I'll give one thing that I think I'm going to touch on that earlier. But I've been trying to really hammer this out for a long time is, none of this actually matters. 

Cameron [01:22:15] You know, this is just what we do to make money. And if we can't have some fun along the way and be a little silly and laugh a lot and hold hands while we cross the street and enjoy the ride, enjoy the journey. But let's not take ourselves so seriously. All right. Look, all of our businesses, all of our companies, all of our jobs. This is just what we're doing to pay the bills so that we can enjoy our life. Let's enjoy our life at the same time.

Mark [01:22:43] Enjoying our lives. That sounds so simple. And I think you think it is easy to get obsessed and not do that. 

Cameron [01:22:51] Well, let's let's do one thing together right now. We both got to some time we would break in our day. Yeah, I got one sitting here. You got two sitting behind you. I've got one guitar sitting in front of me. You got two guitars sitting behind you. Why don't we both stop the podcast right now and let's sit down with our guitar for five minutes and let's just play something

Mark [01:23:10] Independently? That is actually really hard. Yeah. You actually have that special software to get that because of the delay. 

Cameron [01:23:21] Let's sit down and actually play our guitar by ourself for five minutes to give us some enjoyment because the rest of the day is going to be taken up with being busy. But let's just have fun for five minutes.

Mark [01:23:31] I can absolutely 100 percent commit to doing that.

Cameron [01:23:34] I'm in, then.

Mark [01:23:36] Are we gonna text each other? Are we gonna come back? How are we gonna - when we're done.

Cameron [01:23:40] Oh, we're just gonna do it. Just have some fun. 

Mark [01:23:42] Okay. Well, Cameron, I really appreciate you taking the time. It's been so timely. I know everybody's gonna want to hear from you all. People who listen to this are the kind of people who you talk to and they want to hear from you. How do people find you if they want to know more? Find it. Check out your books. How do people find you out there? 

Cameron [01:24:02] Sure. So all of my books are available on Amazon Audible and items, all five of them where I've got Double Double, Vivid Vision, Meetings Suck, The Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs and Free PR. Also, my podcast, the Second In Command podcast is a great one for them to listen to. Everyone's interviewing the entrepreneur. I only interview the COO. I always wanted the rest of the story, so that would be a great one, especially in the visionary integrator community. And then has got all the rest of my information up there. 

Mark [01:24:32] Awesome and it's great stuff. I'm so privileged to have spent the time with you and I'm very much looking forward to playing my guitar and playing off next time you're in Houston man.

Cameron [01:24:42] I'm in, man. Mark, thanks so much. I really appreciate the time.

Mark [01:24:43] Thank you so much man.

Cameron [01:24:45] `Good luck, take care.