It's conventional wisdom that everyone who wants to compete at a high level, needs a coach. But what does that even mean? What does a coach really do?
Gadi and Mark go deep on what coaching can be at its best, but also try to keep it practical. People hire coaches for many reasons and not all of them are the right reasons. In this episode, they talk about various types of coaching and how to think about what you really want and need from your coach. This way, you can find the right coach for you, if you really even need one at all.
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
GADI POLLACK:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gadipollack/
https://gadipollack.com/
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Leo Medley
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
January 23, 2020 , Wednseday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
coaching, people, powers, person, talking, leadership, leaders, life, trauma, feel, vulnerability, real, create, conversation, problem, started, trust, company, character, driven
SPEAKERS
Mark
00:00
So we're rolling, cool.
Mark 00:01
We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary and my name is Mark, and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so I want to help entrepreneurial leaders feel more in control of their business. So today, we are here with my friend, Gotti Pollack, who is an extraordinary leadership coach and inspirational friend, been coaching a lot of lot of people for a lot of years and is actually the developer of the five core leadership power coaching system.
00:34
It's good to see you, man. Good to see you, Mark, how are you? I am excited to embark on a conversation with you and see where this takes us.
Mark 00:43
Yeah, me too. I don't know where we're going to go. We've had some pretty deep conversations over the years. And so we're going to kind of find out where that goes. I guess, you know, coaching is really well, there's a lot here, right? So coaching, coaching peer groups mentor shift as a whole big, it's a whole big subject that I would love to kind of stir the pot on. And you've got experience with all of it, right? So peer group leadership, mentor groups, mentoring being mentored being a mentee. So Wow, as I think about this, what a great resource, I want to go where this goes, because I know a lot of like, my clients, and my friends have all hired coaches, they see me as some form of coach and these are the leadership team. But that's not individual coaching. And I see, in fact, what kind of really got me thinking, I have had a few people I've talked to in the last couple of months, who are overwhelmed with how much coaching they have. They're like, they got addicted to coaching. And they're getting feedback and advice from many different channels. And it's causing them some confusion about how to make decisions. So, you know, how do you how do you think about coaching?
01:55
Oh, what a great way to start. The first word that comes to mind, in coaching, my first word is homeostasis. Okay. And that is really our body's ability and our desire to be whole. And to be complete with all the talents and gifts with which we arrived on this earth. Example I give is when we break a bone in our arms, the body heals itself, we go to a doctor so that it'll set the right way. But it's actually our body healing itself. The second thing that comes to mind in regard to your question about so many people who can become addicted to coaching, Hmm, okay, that's a thing. I didn't make that up yet. That sounds like sure. For high achievers. And I love working with high achievers who have overcome some form of adversity of challenge of trauma in their backgrounds, people who are really, really driven to achieve all they can be and create businesses, and create organizations and impact the world in a significant way, for the better. Part of the avoidance of pain comes with addiction. When we have a lot of things kind of clicked for me right there, right? When we have an inner pain that is unresolved, that have we become numb to our body gives up hope of releasing the pain and searches for ways of applying balm to the wound of solving the pain of it. And that becomes addictive behavior. And that could become any behavior doesn't just have to be sex, money, alcohol or drugs. Sure, it'd be work, could it be exercise, it could be coaching, and cancer.
Mark 03:51
I mean, I just want to pause on that, because I that sounds kind of obvious when I look back at this, but I just was surprised to suddenly see like, Oh, that is something that is sort of labeled clearly as the way to fix stuff. For many people may be the way to hide the stuff they need to fix.
04:07
Anything could be a way of avoiding something that at some point, our bodies decided, is too much for us to handle. So the third thought that I have about coaching is that if you look at the human body, our eyes look out. We can see everybody else's faults. We can see their strengths, we can see what we would do, we can see where they struggle, why they struggle. What we don't see is ourselves because our eyes look out they don't look inward. And to me the whole nature of how as humans were wired, wired biologically to connect for our survival. No, it's having friends, having relationships is an innate need a survival need. And part of that need I think, is to know ourselves through how we reflect back to others. And so there is a need for connection in order to achieve our full potential. The fourth thing I would say is finding the balance. In my own life, I know that I have struggled my entire life with issues that I tried to solve on my own for decades and failed. It was only when I found a coach who understood my history, and had traversed a similar path that I was able to break through. So there's no doubt to me that coaching is, is in the context of human relationships, helps us see the things that we're blind to about ourselves. The fifth thing I would then say is, it's a comment upon us as humans to balance the homeostasis. What do we know innately? our instincts that come from inside that nobody else can tell us? And when do I need to take input from others about data that I'm missing?
Mark 06:05
So that that internal voice? Are you referring to just things we know about ourselves? Or is deeper? Like what jack Canfield will call the inner whisper?
06:14
I think it's the inner whisper. Okay. And we were talking about we have microphones to amplify, right? There's the outer voice that helps us see the things we can't see. And I think our job as humans, for achieving maximum potential is knowing when to balance, the inner whisper and the outer voice. Because that
Mark 06:35
I mean, I want to kind of, for people who might not know that concept, I coached a lot of people to understand that their life is their own destiny. And you're especially startups or somebody who is feeling in the presence of other wisdom. Other people who know more and have more experience, they tend to kind of give up a little of their own autonomy and sort of, and I see people struggle with like, Hey, I got this really smart, very experienced person telling me to do something, something doesn't feel right, you know, help me How do I decide and I say, look, you got you got to live with the outcome here, not them, your path your life, you go with what works and feels for you and learn to respect your inner whisper your inner voice about, you know, even if this is the wrong path, you're going to pay the check, not them. So be be be plugged into that. And it's not easy to tune in to your own guts. commitment to your own path.
07:30
Absolutely. And if there were points, it might have been too painful to tune into our inner wisdom, our inner voice, and we might have avoided it and that becomes dissociation and then we are constantly seeking external stimuli that will produce a feeling of well being within. So that balance knowing when do I need external data to complete? What I missing? When do I listen to the external voice? And when do I reach the point where I have heard enough, I need some time for contemplation, for reflection, for being with that inner voice. And hear what that inner voice is telling me about all the data I've taken in from everybody.
Mark 08:21
Well, I mean, it. So many things are springing to mind right now. And the one question that I wanted to kind of plant the seed on and not try to answer right now. But through this, I want to start to answer the question of how does somebody find the right coach, for them for that time, for that moment for those problems for that aspect of their life, which is kind of foreshadowing a little bit how I think about this, because I do think it is time is timing based, it is need based, it is potentially temporary. And there's lots of factors that go into that. But the how to find that. And the precursor to that is that for anybody who is not aware of what the standard, that's a terrible word. The most common definition I hear about coaching has to do with this idea of self discovery of the person being coached. There's, there's this idea of, it's not your journey, it's their journey, you're helping them figure out what it is you're helping them discover their own journey, which is interesting. And I'm comfortable with it, having heard about it this way for so long and trying to pursue it. But there's also the more everyday version of coach, Bill belcheck. You know, Gregg Popovich, these people are not seeking the inner wisdom of their players. They're saying, no, go slow, down, go faster, look behind you, your left foot is turned too far to the right. And they're hands on and there's a path there's a vision they're bringing to the table. And I think that there's reason to talk about those two sides because you know, if you want to play the game at a higher level, you might want to learn Bill Belichick system, you know, it's not all about hey, you know, I'm a player. You don't tell me how many create my own system like no Bella check system works. I want that system. So how do you see that? How much? How much spice does the coach bring? versus how much discovery and blank slate should your coach bring?
10:15
So it's so it's interesting. A lot of thoughts. First one is the five core leadership powered is a system of self discovery.
Mark 10:26
Okay, okay. It moves the system. So you actually, it's a little bit of both right? It's like I have a system that will help you find you. Okay.
10:34
Yes. In a guaranteed What? Okay. The second thought I have, if we go to the football analogy, if you think about draft day, right, yeah. So teams have 15 minutes to make a decision that will be worth potentially millions 10s of millions of dollars, sure. Which they're betting a lot.
Mark 11:01
And that, by the way, the bet statistically, are not that awesome. Like, you know, it's not in 90%. Like your your first round draft, I think some very dismal percentage, like half of them even survived three years in the league. And that is a great challenge of life where you can look at all the objective criteria of what makes a great draft choice of a number one.
11:20
Yeah. And how many have been busts? Yeah. So and what I would argue is that what's been missing is the internal experience of the person, and how they're going to react in the situation where they go from being a superstar and college, to an acceptable player at a whole different league. So that's the second thought the third thought I had was, in those 15 minutes, where teams have to choose, they have a philosophy or thought about what they're going to do when now they're faced with this array of choices. And one is, fill the need, that our team as the best player that fills a need. The other is the best player on the board and structure our team around his talent.
Mark 12:14
Right, okay. Okay.
12:15
So it's your question of, well, Bill Belichick has a system as great coach, and it's been proven. And whatever the determines of his success, it's scalable. And for me, I was driven to create and understand the five core power leadership is I wanted the reliability, predictability, to do what Bill Belichick does in football with leaders, okay. And that's what it does. And it's a system that helps us stay focused and not disassociate from our inner experience, our inner powers, the places where we have been absolutely the most effective in life, which also tells us where we're struggling, where we're succeeding, tells us why we're struggling, tells us why we're succeeding, how to do more of success, less of struggle.
Mark 13:12
So in my mind, I'm thinking that Well, I mean, it's still kind of a gray area of like, Well, we know that certain players, like you said, Bill Belichick well, Gregg Popovich better example. For those people who don't know basketball, this is terribly specific, but the but it's not well known that like he has a culture. Like if you're want to be a superstar on the San Antonio Spurs, you're not, not the right guy for the team, like LeBron James is not going to the Spurs, that's not happening. Because everybody plays together. It's a team effort. It's not about that. So to coach that team to excellence, you got to say, Yeah, I want to learn that way. That I have a self discovery. And part of that is said that I'm fine to subordinate my ego to some extent. And that's a team I think I can work on. So there's a meeting in the middle of, there's certain things that this system produces, it's not totally blank slate, it's within a lane, there's, there's constraints. And if you like the constraints, we'll get great things out. So how does that fit into your thinking of like, you know, hey, I've got to be specific, when you talk about the system, I believe in what I call a process driven, tools based approach, because that's what I do. That's what I teach. And I am a huge believer in the idea that if we can process is things that are consistent and predictable. It frees me up to do really powerful, predictable things in the really artful pieces that aren't so predictable. And so that that framework is just very high leverage to create whatever outcomes are created. I've got a tool set, I know how to use the tools. So I don't want to work with people who don't have a pre pre determined tool set because I think it's random what to produce. What's produced success is kind of an accident that scenario so I Get that that's what you've created. But what? Is there something in your system that says like, you know, here's some, here's some reasons why people might might want my system versus why people might not want my system.
15:13
So you talked about culture with Gregg Popovich and say the answer for Greg's team, when they're choosing the draft choice is we're going to look at the talent, we're going to look at the need the club has, and maybe primarily, we're going to look at the culture of our organization and the culture of that person. And when that those two cultures match the individual and the organization, rather than having friction, you have an extra energy and extra leverage. And that's where the value is created. Because you take multiple people, it creates a team that has more power than the individuals because the cultures are aligned and working together.
Mark 15:57
So I mean, that's a core values thing. So that's a cultural thing. Every company I work with, they've got to get clear on what their core values are, what the culture needs to be like. So I guess I've never thought about it in terms of which I don't know why coaching has to have the same elements is a core value concept coming into this, because I guess, I guess, when I'm reacting is that every coaching book I've read is like this blank slate approach. And I'm like, yeah, that's cool. Except that people sometimes want a nudge, they, they're like, you know, I don't want blank, like I have a specific thing. And I don't want and we are highly competitive. I am highly individualistic, or I am highly team oriented. And I do think there is this idea of what's the backdrop? What's the context? You know, maybe there is clear, because coaching is about discovery. I think I you know, it is not about dictation, that that's that could be a leadership attribute that could be visionary, that could be direction. But coaching is about asking better questions, either metaphorically or literally about, you know, what are the obstacles? What is going on? What don't I know? But I do think that there is a portion of the formula that is, what Aren't we going to challenge? What is an assumption going into this conversation that we're not going to talk a lot about, but if we don't agree on is going to create conflict?
17:18
Yeah. So for me, the culture of people that I work best with where this system yields the highest results consistently, as people who have overcome challenges in life, and have reached the point where they are willing to look internally, they're no longer satisfied by external success by the car and company money, that that's not enough for them, they've started to recognize that the answer lies within. But they don't know the pathway. And they're looking for a guide, or somebody who has explored and has found power and value that way.
Mark 17:58
I just think I want to make this as tangible as possible. And we're getting into stuff I love it's, it can be a little bit theoretical sounding. You know, when you go find a coach, which I've done multiple times, and wow, like, wow, how different is a coach from the next one, and, and so many it's self described, coaches, self prescribed, self constructed, and you know, people come many people show up with like, hey, if people told me I was good at coaching, so I've been doing it ever since. Okay, is that a resume? Maybe it doesn't sound predictable. And then other people, they have a spa follow specific methodology, and then pricing. And I did some research at one point about an individual coach, you know, there was one guy who's a nice book, reputation hangs out with very well known people, and is a mastermind group with people whose names you would know, and this person charges $15,000 a quarter. And so you know, that's real. And to me, that's almost like, it's almost part of the sales pitch, like, you know, 15 grand a quarter like, well, that better I better be good. But I don't really know. What's he doing? Again, like, helping me be better? What's, what's my better because the coaching philosophies are like, well, you decide what better you know, if you're going to transform your world. Can you put a price on that? Well, no, I can't. But maybe there's some can we get somewhat tangible about what the context? Are we trying to transform financially or trying to transform leadership wise, are we trying to transform my family life? Are there some things we should share in common belief wise, like how we transform? Is there a religious aspect to what we do, which is not talked about very much? I think that would be a very fair question. So you know, in tangible terms, what do you see that's like differences? Like, when somebody's looking for a coach, what are the questions they should be asking about? What do you believe?
19:43
Sure, great questions, because it's so personal, and it's so hard to know. And we're doing so much on faith. And if we've had coaches and it's not worked out, or this is a first coach that we're looking for, we're going into the unknown The first principle It comes back to homeostasis. Like, we know, we need to be comfortable with that situation. So I'd sit down and talk to a coach and see how I feel at the end of the conversation. Number one and trust my instinct,
Mark 20:17
the homeless to homeostasis, you're essentially saying, we're here to having a conversation with a coach for a reason. Right some something said Today's the day, you know, we put it on our list, we said I need to find a coach and wasn't probably just that friend suggested we did it, it was with friends suggests in things all the time, and somehow this one made it to the list. I'm talking about somebody, something needs to be repaired, fixed, enhanced or created.
20:44
The second question I would ask is, what is the number one problem that I'm trying to solve? Why am I talking to this coach? What am I not achieving? On my own that I feel I could achieve? What problem Am I dealing with unsuccessfully, or avoiding? With which I'd like to help? Have a coach? Okay, I need to know that before I talk to anybody, I need to know what problem I'm trying to solve.
Mark 21:10
Okay, so that sounds actually confusing to me, because so much of coaching is sort of like trying to unwind that, I think, and because I've even had conversations, I mean, what I do is coaching on a different level. So I spoke with many different types of businesses, everything from you know, from manufacturing to law firms, I spoke with attorney and in this guy was a well known litigator, and and I said, What do you want? What do you know, why are we Why would we embark on this process, and I want to be the most well known attorney, I want to be like all those people, you know, and something in the conversation left me a little suspicious that this person might have might feel very accomplished and wanted to be more accomplished, because they were competitive. And there's some some triggers there. And that basically, the trigger is that at once people will check a lot of boxes, a lot of people do that not many people get to a spot in their life. And they've actually done the things they thought they were going to do in their life. They've been married, they've got a nice house, they their business businesses is great. And they're kind of out of bucket list boxes. And but they're still motivated to do something very different. Now, these boxes, I mean, for me, I had a very small list of not that amazing boxes, and so they were all checked off pretty early. Some people have really hard ones, and they check them off really early, but like this, so it just if you've checked off all your boxes, that might not mean or if you're feeling like you, you haven't checked your boxes, you might have big boxes, but let's just say when when the boxes start getting checked off, we start putting goals on our list, from random places, from our peers, from people we compare ourselves to and our friends. And so all that to say that I was wondering if the things he were suggesting weren't things that he borrowed from his peers. And I said, Well, I said, basically what I just said to you, I said, you know, what, if What if those aren't your goals? What might your goals actually be? And he said, actually, you know, I'd love to spend more time with my family. And I say, you know, that's not very sexy, but it's a lot more believable. Now, how hard? Are you willing to work for that? It's really hard. And so there's a lot of transformation to put a law firm into an entrepreneurial business approach a lot, a lot of cost and time. And so that put it in perspective, like, are they are they willing to build structure? Are they willing to pay the price? And and he is. So that's what they're doing?
23:26
Yeah, I do think that oftentimes, we start off, as you describe, with a superficial exterior level of I want the things What do I want? What are the things my friends have? Right, right. Right. And then when challenged, as you did to go deeper, they'll tell you something that they actually want. That may not sound that sexy, right? Right. But it's real, because it comes from the inside. That's where you start working. And I would then get clarity on that, and interview coaches. And at the end of the interview that I have with them, I would want something tangible that I had learned from that conversation, because that will tell me what my future experiences will that person are going to be?
Mark 24:13
Yeah, I think to me, that's what I want from coaching into something. There's a large portion, I did not profess to be an expert on this. I have experienced coaching and made levels from you and from other people. And so I believe I understand what coaching is about, but it is really what I want is somebody to see something about me that I couldn't see. And I do find for myself, that I'm a tough nut to crack like a lot of people, like very few people can see many things about me that I don't already know. And so when I do encounter somebody who can get on that nerve and say something a little humbling or a lot shocking, right? It's like Well, okay, you wait, don't move because you were able to see things that other people wanted to see. Let's Let's Go into the blind spot and help me with that. That's what that's what I think coaching is about being able to get something that just couldn't get for myself, broaden the conversation. And so I guess the real question is when you can improve all parts of your life with infinite possibility, because a coach, any good coach is going to be able to speak into the infinite possibility. But let's try to make that plain, like really good coaching the coaches I know, we're all trained to say like, how big is your future? I'm good at it. And that, that's sort of priceless. Whatever we're talking about is priceless in the future. And so if you talk to five coaches, and they're all good, the odds are really high, but they're all going to get you excited about something really big and limitless. And you're going to have to ask yourself the question like, you know, which facet of that diamond Am I going to go after? Because I can't and shouldn't do them all? I guess. So how do you make a decision? Or how do you help kind of guide somebody through that process of starting with the need, I feel like I'm going to grow something, I have a problem, I'm gonna have a conversation with a coach and they're gonna reword it for me and hopefully, give me some clarity or, or even challenged me that that's not my problem at all right? And you're narrowing it down to like, you know, what the most important thing?
26:16
Yeah. So this brings me back to a comment. You made about various coaches, how they got to be coaches. I coached the way I was coached. And my coach was an Israeli Special Forces General, who I reconnected with when I became a coach, because I felt that I was transmitting what he had taught me on the battlefield, to leaders. And in the course of coaching conversations, over 11 years, what he did was he pointed out the core leadership powers that I had buried in the field of combat that were too painful to see, because they were tied up with trauma. And he was relentless, about pointing out to me what my powers were, and I rejected them, I blew them off. I didn't believe him. Because that was my defensive mechanism, keeping me away from the trauma that I was trying to distancing myself from. And he was relentless and courageous, and wouldn't let me escape the trauma under which my powers were buried. And so I eventually embarked on a journey to release the trauma through therapy, so I could access the core leadership powers, that is exactly what I do with leaders, I help them see the core leadership powers that they themselves are not aware of, or not seeing.
Mark 27:42
So what did what did he do? What was he saying? What What did it sound like when you were kind of getting the relentless encouragement about your leadership abilities?
27:49
My view of combat was that I had not done much, and nothing much had happened, which was a protective measure. GQueues is really a high intensity combat over 19 days. And then eight months. And my Brian had just disassociated from that experience. And he was very specific about places we had been combat we had been in, that I had deleted, and when I trusted him, and that's a big component of coaching his trust, and started to believe him and believe that he had no ulterior motive, even though my brain was saying he's nuts, and he's wrong. And I have no idea of what this man is talking about why he's saying it. I trusted him and respected him enough. So you have to trust and respect your coach, that I was willing to accept the truth of what he said. Even though I believed I had no data to support it. I had no memory of it. It couldn't be true. But yet he said it was true. Then I asked myself, what's the last thing I remember before I don't remember? And I actually got answers. And I started to work with those answers, to unveil the trauma, and really connect and see myself as not only that I was strategic, and I was always interested in history. And that was an eight to me. I always practice till I became the best at anything I did. But also the parts that I wasn't saying was that I was empathic. I could feel people's feelings. I was very flexible. I could adapt quickly to changing situations. I didn't see myself as being courageous. I just saw myself as being the same as everybody. And he told me specifically about people who did not go to the battle who turned away from the battle. He was highlighting that the courage that I displayed was unique. And it was only when I started to have a relationship with the qualities of empathy and flexibility and courage and accepted it and was empathic towards myself courageous towards myself. That those Power started to come alive.
Mark 30:01
So how did that how did the you this language in in the in his activities in retrospect, were very powerful in the moment you sound like you were just dismissing them. And now down the line you have your you've become in the past from now but in the future from then you are realizing that there's something unanswered and if something's not quite right, and you need to repair that, what does that feel like?
30:32
It felt to me like I was drawn to him, I was drawn to speak to him, I, in my mind was making a connection between being a chair of Vistage and coaching leaders, and an experience I'd had in the battlefield. It took me 11 years of coaching, you were
30:48
drawn to him years after you were in the battlefield with correct, okay,
30:51
I felt that whatever, even though logically, I had a good life and everything was good. There was something in complete, that was somehow related to him. I had enough of that sense. So I was drawn to him to have the conversations.
Mark 31:05
Okay, so just for people who don't know, Vistage is a group that Europe, you're a chair for Vistage as well. And so you help facilitate a peer group, which is different than mentorship and coaching. It's people who are, there's different groups, but we'll just say their leaders, usually CEOs, but there are other groups, who are peers of similar sized businesses with similar size challenges or similar challenges, but and you facilitate them through that which is, so that's a different part of this. But in your journey of helping people become better leaders, something is causing you to want to raise your game and solve for something that you feel is holding you back from being your best. And this starts drawing you back to your history of being in battle. Exactly. So
31:44
when I have that need, and I'm talking to a coach, and I'm talking to coach because I have a need, I have a sense that perhaps I can't put into words, perhaps I'm in denial about it to some level. But I'm drawn to get better to feel to overcome to do something in a more effective way than I have in the past to confront something that I'm avoiding. Okay,
Mark 32:09
so how did that unfold?
32:12
It was really a remarkable story in which about 11, five years into our conversations, he specifically told me about specific combat related events that I was then confronted with, I have no memory, the man claims that I was there. He's firm about it. And he's telling me that I deleted it. I accepted that, and I started to question myself about Okay, so what's the last thing I remember before I don't remember anything, I accepted the fact that I don't remember, rather than saying it never happened, I shifted. And that's when I was coaching my own with a peer group of chairs, about building my practice and getting better based on my own unique contribution in history, that the coach suggested that I get therapy. And I resisted that. Because I did, I didn't live under a bridge, I didn't have any trauma, I'd raise the family, I'd run a business, I didn't see myself as being traumatized in any way, shape, or form.
Mark 33:11
Yeah.
33:12
But again, I respected the coach, because she had had a history of overcoming trauma. And she eventually convinced me, and then I did go to therapy. And I did have that image of a burnt out bus, on the battlefield, that that was the last thing I remember before. I don't remember because I accepted that I don't remember. And I also accepted that I didn't remember for a reason. So rather than forcing myself to remember something that I was unwilling to remember, I accommodated myself and I was loving to myself, and caring to myself respecting to myself by saying, so what's the last thing I remember? before? I don't remember. And amazingly enough, our brains have all this terabytes of data, that if we ask it with a specific information with a specific question, and a desire, true desire to understand, it will give us an answer. And my brain gave me the answer in the form of an image, which I then took to a therapist that then unfolded a whole series of events, and using very powerful methodologies, some that I learned in therapy, and many that I found on my own reading over 200 books, in which I was actually able to understand that the traumas held and encoded in our vagus nerve, and that we can release it and be access to all our leadership powers, all of them, and then have that sense of achievement and fulfillment and completion, and that there's something I'm in good shape, but there's something missing, right? That was my feeling. I'm in good shape. I don't have a problem. There's just something missing. I'd like to get my arms around. And so I started working with my coach during that period because she approached me she had worked with other chairs, so I trust and credibility in her, because I'd seen her work with other people who I'd seen become better. So that I think is another coach, if, if the coach that you're working with that you have external evidence that you have seen people, you know, become better. I don't think there's anything more powerful than that. So I trusted her and was open to her approach.
Mark 35:20
And that's a big takeaway for me, that it's really about what the truth, I think, I don't think is enough dimension and depth to put, we could put on what that trust looks like. I mean, I think it's the the example of being on the battlefield, battlefield, somebody you trust so much with your life, you know, it's a totally different conversation, it's a different way of thinking, if we're, we're on a mission of some sort together, the things I'm learning is in a much richer way than then the opposite tactical approach of like, Hey, I'm struggling with some staff. And I need to know whether to fire this person or not very tactical, and you can just sort of put it on a box like, do I trust this person? Sure. They fired people before. And I'm, and I'm trying to tackle many concepts at once. But I think that understanding how, how deep is his coaching going? It's probably the biggest question, because I think that I suspect that a lot of people enter coaching with a very tactical sense, like, I want to work with a business mentor, who can help me decide to fire and faster and enter and exit markets and things like that. And that's cool. But I think that when we start that path we encounter, I know, I have encountered patterns and behaviors like well, it's it's not as simple as knowing when to fire there's, there's reasons I keep coming up with people who need to be fired. And there's reasons I keep pulling the punch on firing them or doing something or there's my own behaviors. And you you tend to, you've done a lot of work in the deep rounds, like you've really tried to get into the behaviors and things behind the scenes. And so how do you see that continuum working together as sort of like, Hey, you know, you want to do a little coaching? What does that mean to you? Oh, I'd like to be a slightly better leader. I'd like to sell a little more, I'd like to be a little stronger in front of my staff, I'd like to make some better strategic decisions. Well, that sounds very reasonable. And we might have, that's not what I would say.
37:14
I would say Why? Why do you want to be better in front of your stuff? Okay,
Mark 37:18
so So, yeah, so So how does that do you find people say, like, why are we going there? I wanted to know, just to hire this, fire this person? Or do they? Or do they generally get it and 90% of the time, you really say I'm glad we started with this very reasonable conversation. And we're going to go a long way from where you started.
37:38
I think many people like myself, approach coach with a specific problem. Once we recognize that the answer lies not outside of us, but inside of us, not somebody else's to blame. But that it's our decisions, our patterns, who's the type of person I hire? And why do I recreate the situation? Like, what is the pattern that I'm looking for people who are willing to, those are the people I work with the people who reach the point where they want to fix their lives at a fundamental level,
Mark 38:16
they see it as being something slightly deeper than just a little more knowledge, or much deeper than a little more knowledge.
38:23
They go deeper, we go deeper, to solve the problem. like myself, I didn't have a problem about unknown, I didn't think I had trauma. I just felt there was something related that I was drawn to be a chair, there was something related, I wanted to explore it. And I think, as business people we are drawn for we live in the real world, in the physical world. And we have physical problems, though, the ones to which we give priority. So I start with an actual problem I want, I want to have more clients, or I want to grow a business or I right in some way. And on that journey. As we discover, well, why don't I have the clients that I feel I'm capable of? And then what are the behaviors that I'm engaging in? And then how can I change those behaviors, so I had to create a better life and achieve the goals for which I set. And then I may discover, as you said, Well, I achieve that goal. But I still have a yearning or a desire to achieve something else. But I can't tell you what it is. But But I'm here to put meat on the bone and to figure out how I could achieve what are the things that give me meaning and purpose in life?
Mark 39:34
Do you ever encounter anybody who's not feeling in some way really stuck or truly meaning? I guess, you know, the people who do it my hypothesis is that because we look at people who are very successful, we assume they feel as successful as they look to us. And behind that, you know, I've had the hypothesis the most successful people are the most Most broken feeling, because they're the as the motivation like they know they have some childhood trauma, some some something in their life that made them feel so incomplete, that they went into overdrive mode, as opposed to just being so talented, it was so easy, because I just don't think that's common or even may not be existing at all, that they were just so talented that their outrageous success was inevitable it was it was virtually effortless for them just a little bit is when they're off, they're off the races, I I tend to think that it's like there was such a need, such as desire set to burning drive, that that came from somewhere, yes, but do you encounter people who are kind of like, you know, this is basically pretty good, or, you know, the more motivated they are, the more reason to be coaching, the more likely it is to say like, you know, there's something here and we need to unwrap it.
40:48
We attract the people that are the chair, our values and our goals and our experiences in some way through which we can have connection. So many of the people that are drawn to me are people who have overcome some difficulty, some challenges, some adversity, some trauma in their life and are driven, what happens with trauma, when our life is at risk, we get this supercharged energy to survive. And then when that energy is not released, it stays within us. And we transfer it to achievement and achievement and achievement. And then at some point, the inner experience that the high achievement can no longer mask, the inner experience. So in terms of the people that I'm connected to and drawn to my experience was working with the CEOs of companies that are 5 million 10 million, 20 million 100 million. The view from the outside is, Oh, these people are the top people in the country. These people have made they have budgets, they make decisions, they control the lives of 10s, hundreds 1000s of people. Yeah, they're it. And yet my view from the inside is spending 6000 hours talking to these people is that they've all the same fears, all the same apprehensions as anybody else. And I think the difference between them is, they're quicker to see when something is not working. And they're quicker to address it.
Mark 42:16
Yeah, I mean, I've worked with companies who are between, you know, smallest companies might be 966, and a smallest company they buy six people to work with, but I work with people who are companies, several 100 employees. And I was was remarkable to me a few years after doing this kind of work, that it wasn't I couldn't I couldn't identify. It's not that there aren't differences is that I couldn't identify the revenue by how the leadership team felt, or how they looked or how they acted like I would be I would really be like was this is this company, like a $9 million company or like a $90 million company, and I wouldn't know and then I'd have to go look at the data. Because the leadership team had the same problem, same challenges, same things and how we solve problems. And how we interact with just so very, very similar. What What is different is like types of companies like a tech startup is like so different than like a piping installation company in terms of how they interact. But that has nothing to say about the ability to execute like you like, I'm not gonna say that that tech company is going to execute better than that piping insulation company, they might be lethal leaders, they might be really awesome. So that's, that's, that's the dimension that I can remember.
43:24
Yeah, no, I do agree that it's, if you really want to understand the situation. The best way is really sit down person to person and talk that person, not as the CEO of a company in this industry, but as an individual who thinks and acts and decides a certain way has certain strengths, certain weaknesses.
Mark 43:46
One of the things we teach in the EOS world is this concept of healthy and smart. And the difference is that healthy, healthy versus smart is most people are kind of taught to be smart. Go read a book, learn your craft, learn, get the technical stuff, write the regulations, write the laws, right, you know, learn the the data stuff, the smart of the healthy side of it is lots of things politics, openness, and honesty, clear conversations, your unique abilities in Dan Sullivan's terms, you know, what are you? What are your God given talents? Are you in the right function? Are you the right role is self awareness and a lot of this internal soft stuff, it's in that that's where it breaks loose. I mean, at some point, you're going to hit the ceiling. That concept is really you're going to get stuck. And when you get stuck. It's probably not just the one technical tidbit you're missing. It's probably something about how you think and how you feel and that self awareness. The Healthy side of that just becomes really hard. So I guess, yeah,
44:51
I would agree and i i think that was a great lesson I learned from combat was that not necessarily the smartest, strongest, most handsome Most Outstanding, most impressive person is actually going to deliver in the clutch. Sometimes you just don't know, you have no idea of the quiet guy in the room who's going to surprise you, and turn the situation around. And that's why I look at character so much, because at the end of the day in battle, what really matters is the character of the people you're with, and your ability to develop trust, and execute at a very high level.
Mark 45:29
So I want to so I actually, lots of lots of things going to mind out in the psychology side of this character development. And I get the idea of character is something that is about it's highly judgmental, it's, you know, do you have good character? Well, that's highly subjective, like, what do you what do you think a good character looks like? And I don't believe it is obvious, that that you could compare to people who have ideal characters described that they would be the same, they were they wouldn't be that. But I think it's interesting to think about, if someone wants to develop their character, that is not just merely a choice, like that's a journey, like you've I think you have to be able to figure out what your character is. And as I'm saying this, I'm thinking that if I were asked this question, like, would you even know what your character is? In the moment? You probably would think, of course. And then after some reflection is like, well, maybe I actually have no idea. Maybe Mike, maybe because the character is end up being. And this is, again, this is highly opinionated about what the definition is. But I think your character is represented in your actions. It's not about what you want yourself to be, it is about what you actually do. And I don't know how many people are really, truly in touch with how consistent they are in their actions for what they think they're holding sacred. And so that, so I think coaching, in essence, might be driving towards trying to find your ideal character.
47:05
That is a great insight mark. And I've always thought about character, as what I want this person in my tank crew, they can rely on that person to be there and fulfill the job at the highest level. And will they stand by me? Well, I want to stand by them in situations of extreme duress. And that is the number one determinant. And actually, as I think about it, the insight I have as you're talking Marcus, the five core leadership powers in my mind are actually the definition of our character.
47:41
Okay, so what are they what are the tell tell us a little more specifically about the five leadership
47:47
powers. So as I was going through this journey with, with unknown my mentor, and he kept adding to in a traits that had come out in combat that I had buried, and I was able to see myself more completely, as a whole human being as a complete character. As living as a coach as living fulfilled, my effectiveness, just rising off the charts in terms of my ability to touch people, I started to notice. And I started to look at the leaders I was working with, and help them see that their own powers to solve the problems that they might have been avoiding. And so I just found very different combination of powers that people sometimes we're not aware of like, and it just ranges, it's literally there are hundreds of them. Okay, so the Fae, are your five, these are hundreds in my five some of them just to give you an example, say, like some of the people I think about are well, let's talk about you, Mark, since Well, I let's do it. So I just you and me and here No, no one's listening. We're just kind of Top of Mind stream of consciousness. So like, what I know about you, Mark is number one, the number one thing that comes and this is really a question of evolution, and conversation and give and take. And the way we know that we've really hit the five core leadership powers is that there is or power by power, there's a physiological response, people get centered, or they get emotional, okay? They're really focused is really, you know, you're really talking to the absolute core of the person. So, for you, I know that you're curious, you read books, you got to lectures, you learn, you're driven to learn, you look for coaches, you look for peer groups, you're constantly evolving to the next highest best use of who you are. So I see you as just driven, driven to nothing will stop you from From evolving to the next level, so I see this strong drive. The next thing I really see about you is, you're really smart mark, you're one of the smartest people I know, like, intelligence. And I've watched you over the years, as the intelligence has focused on what I call outer intelligence, the knowledge facts, data, books, all that information, as your journey as you started to focus inward. So you're also have a great depth to you.
Mark 50:30
Thank you.
50:32
So that would be an example of how I'd start a conversation. And those are my observations. What really matters is the physiological state of the person responding. And that tells us it's kind of like radars that tell us and we hit that ping, is this the core of who the person is.
Mark 50:52
So those resonate, you know, I hesitate to get too close to the smart guy, there's ego and, you know, this wrapped up in that, but certainly the driven side of them, but I think that's a relatively safe place to talk. Yeah, I'm obsessed with the next thing, whatever that is, and they grow or die mentality is something that I believe is an asset. For me, it certainly my brand is built around that. And that's part of how I deliver value to my, to my world. And at times it we've talked about this, where that can become either either a weakness or a distraction, or an addiction.
51:36
All of them, all of them can become in my five correlation, power system, all of them. The search in life is for the balance point is where I'm at maximum power. But I haven't overused one power to the extent of another, when I move into addiction, is overusing a power like I would overthink out over strategize, right, when I was too stressed out, and I couldn't access empathy, or how am I feeling about the situation? Now just stay thinking. So strategy and seeing the big picture, and how complex things interact is a great part of my strength. under stress, when we're not aware of all our characters will overuse one or two. And then they become addictive.
Mark 52:20
Yeah, so how does somebody identify that? I guess I'm thinking about people who are, you know, stuck in some form of leadership ceiling? Yes. And and they're trying to say, because I think the conversation started with you got to know is that there's a problem? What are you trying to solve for? So you're stuck, you're a leader you're like, or maybe not even stuck, you're frustrated, it's probably not even clearly it's not even clear defined is stuck. You're not here, like, I want more. And I've wanted more for a while. And I'm trying to get a sense, because I'm starting my own journey of what do I need, and identifying the difference between a strength that's gone too far. visionaries do that all the time, the visionaries I work with, they're taking a bigger and bigger bite of the future, and what fuels that organization are all those they're 20 ideas every single week or every single day in some cases. And then 19 of them are not useful today. And they just feel like a failure, because they feel like they're wasting the time of the organization to distracting people. They're getting into arguments with that with their best leaders, and their and their wrestling ideas to the ground. And they lose sight of the one thing that they brought to the table that was worth it all. And they can't get around this idea that like, that was enough, like that one idea and your vision that fuels the organization. And to get that one you had to kind of fight through 19. And then so, but they still feel like there's something missing? How do they get them? So what's what's the thought process? How do you coach, how do you guide somebody to start to think so you're well,
53:53
we start with the frustration, the frustration that I'm at this situation? So your example, we brought with a great visionary, who started a company, but but now can't stop visioning. And is not creating chaos on his company. Yeah,
Mark 54:07
yeah. But the biggest threat to a visionaries amazing ideas, their next amazing idea.
54:13
Right? So in that case, and then that person, as you said, gets into conflict, and it creates chaos. And now it started with a pure, beautiful vision, but it ends up with conflict and lack of execution. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Right. Yeah. So that inner frustration that that person has, is a reflection of the fact that they have leadership powers that are not fully expressed. They're trying to express it through one at the expense of others. So for example, say if that person had a quality of empathy, that they could then discover, they could modulate the visioning with empathy for the people need to execute it. And they could then stay in the visioning part, but they could build up their empathy commune occation skills so that they could inspire people to fill the vision. Okay, so
Mark 55:05
I've already just talked about this. But I want to make this somewhat tangible to these two people listening. And maybe so I'm clear on it, that what you said is not the same thing as fix your weaknesses. It is find your complimentary strength. Yes. So you have a natural ability to do one thing and you have something else you can also tap into that will work when that first thing doesn't work. That is not the same thing as doing the opposite of the first thing because that, so you need to have your access to your five primary colors of your abilities, and some will counteract others in a way and you should know what your five are, because you can use them. You're not trying to be somebody else. That's That's the difference. you're
55:46
frustrated. The frustration is a sign that you have that other power, but it's not being activated. Yeah. And what you just said, is something is the greatest insight into the nature of the work and the nature almost of life. That one of the people I was coaching, reflected back to me it was we all go through life thinking that our problems are our problems. There are problems, our weaknesses, what we're not good enough. And if we could just get better enough at those. Right, right, right, then we'd have a great life, and we'd achieve everything we want. And our companies would run great, everything would go smoothly, it would be us on our best day forever. Right? And, and the inside, what I'm saying is, our problem is, is not the weaknesses that we have. It's the powers that we overuse, that in a sense, we're addicted to
Mark 56:40
it. And I hate the word balance, because I feel like it creates this unrealistic expectation that our lives are kind of like the same formula every day, every, every month. And I'm a big believer in the power the concept of seasons. And I think I'm borrowing that from Rory vaden. Actually, he talks about this in his books that like balance is not real. There are seasons and did you got a recipe and I use talked about all the time, like, if you want to make a cake, and you put flour and sugar and those ingredients in place, and somebody says, you know, sugar tastes good. Just put some more sugar in there. And you keep putting more sugar and more sugar, more sugar, and eventually you've got 100% sugar. That's not a cake. You know, that's maybe a hard candy. But if you're trying to make a cake, that's not the right recipe. It's not about it's not about balance. It's about what are you trying to make? In this part of my life in this type of situation? Am I sacrificing my time with my friends, because I'm trying to graduate med school, that's not balance. But that's a recipe for a grad for a medical degree and if that's what you want, so understanding how those things all fit together. So I don't want I don't want balance, but it's understanding about when you got something that's woefully out of balance, like is a problem coming? How do you counteract that with tools that are accessible to you, not somebody else's tools, like a skill you've got?
58:05
Yes. And these leadership, for example, your curiosity, your ambition, your drive your intelligence, are in a team. They're always there, your form of intelligence is yours. There are other smart people out in the world. But none of them smart, the way you're smart. And you have to connect fully with the smartness and the drive, and the ambition that is yours. And activating the powers that you're not activating. Yeah, to create the balance so that the recipe, I believe that all of us are created with a recipe inside, except we're born without a recipe book. Yeah, the journey of life is to find that recipe so that our life is is a maximum internal harmony. So we're creating the maximum impact
Mark 58:52
outside. And what I love about that is that you know, there's this sort of blank conventional wisdom on your strengths. There's the evolved wisdom, which comes from things like the Clifton Strengths Finder, and that idea of work on your, your strength attributes and build those up. And I like kind of where that is. But there's a lot of people who take issue with that. And my experience has been that it's like some somewhere in between like it because I think the strengths approach at face value makes it seem like you know, you just sort of forget about things you're bad at, and you just only do the things you're good at. And I don't think there's a recipe for we talked about this sort of nuanced counteraction of the negative side effects. And I think what what I've, there's some research to support this, but I can't reference it right now. So I can't give credit to where it's due. But what we find is that when we have clear aims, and clear objectives, that our strengths play to, there will be obstacles, and then involves doing hard work, and we're going to have to navigate past Our own personal weaknesses, our own personal obstacles. And it's not all about, well, I'm, I'm terrible at talking to people. So I guess I'm just not going to talk to people like, well, if you if your objectives and your strengths line you up to an objective that involves talking to people, like, you know, doing a podcast or being on stage or writing a book, and you know, doing a tour or, or leading people or managing people, and you may not be great at managing people by talking to them, but you can manage people by data and objectives. And well, you're going to have to figure out how to counteract and you're going to have to some hard work, how to talk to people well enough. And you're going to have to maybe discover what your leadership abilities actually are, that you that help you do the very best job at talking to people. And it's not about like, I'm going to be the best talking to people person, it's that I'm going to put the recipe together with ingredients I've got that will get me what I want.
1:00:56
So let's reframe that. I'm not good at talking to people say,
Mark 1:01:00
yeah, it was a random things, but it's hopefully not a terrible metaphor, we'll see. Oh,
1:01:04
yeah, it's just a great metaphor. So so the impact of saying that as a judgment, that then blocks off any possibility of change. So I'm now when I start, whatever growth I want to have from that position. of I'm not good at talking to people. I'm foreclosing any growth in talking to people, because I said, I'm not good at Yeah. The reframe is, I was not effective or successful or happy communicating in a specific circumstance. That's true. That's an accurate statement. What can I learn about that circumstance that perhaps caused that ineffectiveness? It's possible that I may be a better communicator than I think, when I reframe the experience from the experience defines me as a poor communicator forever and ever and ever, in my mind, the instruction to my brain I've just sent is, don't bother trying to communicate anybody ever. Because you're horrible. And you're just going to feel terrible. And the brains job is to keep you alive and feeling you and feeling good about ourselves. So I think the reframe that's accurate, opens up possibilities. Because sometimes we don't know for a good communicator, not where communication ranks, in our five core leadership powers, is empathy is a courage is a curiosity. Is it the intelligence? Is it the persistence? Is it the ability to inspire people? What is it?
Mark 1:02:39
Well, you're making that as tangible as possible, am I my own personal experience with I had run my business for many years, and I had other business leaders I was interacting with and people who work for me and I, and just interactions where I discovered that sometimes it didn't work. Like I felt like I was good enough to be doing it. And I discovered that there were certain people that just didn't work. And so my first belief around that came to be that Well, some people I click with, and some people I don't, so at least there's some optimism that I can do it. But I'm thinking there's, there's, there's a dark spot where you know, the sun doesn't shine, and I'm just gonna have to accept that that's not where that goes. And then I found a coach, who said, oh, by the way, you are a very good intellectual communicator, and you are a horrible emotional communicator. And that may sound you know, like, no big deal. But in before that conversation, I had never divided to up. And I thought I was an amazing communicator, unspecified. And now that she had specified and he ranked me a high on one area and, and really low, because she later went on to say, she thought I was one of the worst she had ever encountered. And so that cut me deeply. Suddenly, I had no, I had no experience with that. Now, it's what I really was humbling. And so I thought, but what does that mean? I've got a whole new journey. What does emotional communication mean? And what I learned from that was, I was not aware of my own emotions in communication sometimes. And so if I could communicate that, hey, I'm feeling fearful or I'm feeling frustrated, or I'm feeling concerned about something else that may not have anything to do with the words I'm telling you, I could sync up the person I'm talking to, with my emotion and they could understand that I was not mad at them that because that's what was happening. Like they thought it was mad at them or arguing or fighting with them. But I was really just concerned about something else. And so this some awareness of emotional states that was sort of stage two, and that got me a decade I think, and then the next decade became like, Well,
1:04:43
can we stop there for sure because more cuz I think your coach did for you. What my coach did for me, okay, was they help shine a light on something that we had considered differently entirely differently and you are now able to differentiate between intellectually, well know you're real smart. And you can communicate. Not only are you smart intellectually, but you have passionate but communicating your ideas.
Mark 1:05:09
Right? Right. And that can be a train wreck.
1:05:13
Well, it's very complex. Yeah. Cuz cuz you manage amazing amount of complexity, right? So communication is Manny is matching our style and weight to the other person's so they can hear it. And you had this tremendous insight. Hey, I'm created this type of communication. Not so good at this. What does that tell me? That was one important step on your journey. Yeah. and discovering that, so that, as you say, you could then become a better emotional communicator.
Mark 1:05:43
Right. And I guess I'll even kind of underscore that point, I realized I said it kind of flippantly. That was a decade. And the way I meant it was sort of like, you know, that was it was a decade again, before I learned something even more transformative, but I the re say that like, Well, that was quite a lot. That was a lot to digest just that one little tidbit. Like what is emotional communication? Where do I see it everywhere? Am I am I self aware in those, and, you know, I probably could have moved that along a lot faster with a different better coach, or whatever if I had pursued it. But it was still a long time and self discovery and figuring out what it was a powerful insight. Yeah, it was. And so then the third iteration, and that's where I'm at in the third iteration, and it's probably fourth and fifth coming down the line, but it starts to become like, well, there are I am being a little more aware of some of my emotions, and maybe not as aware as I thought maybe they are. Maybe anger, for example, is a secondary emotion in there's other things like sadness, fear, disappointment, that usually drive anger and haven't been now that aware of some of those. So asking myself some harder questions that don't have immediate answers. And understanding the root cause of like, I do have a feeling of fear or anger or frustration, and I'm not sure why, like, you know, and suddenly, it's not just a matter of awareness. It's like, hey, there's something there's something here. Like, you know, I'm getting angry, frustrated, maybe even disproportionately in this situation. It's getting, it's not serving me, I'm not leading as well as I could, I would love to be cool and calm under pressure in that state, but I'm actually quite out of control. That's not great. I don't believe it's not serving me, let's let's go down the path of back to these primary emotions, which are actually and this is, this can be very, very difficult stuff for leaders to start at a leader is supposed to be strong. Ask them. What are you afraid of? to this be vulnerable from them? I've actually, because I'm very used to this concept of vulnerability.
1:07:33
You've said so much, you say some could we just you brought it up, write down a note, because I want to bring back this idea of vulnerability. You? Yes. So for me it because you talked about anger, I'm not my heirs not serving these leader in this point. The most outstanding thing that I saw about unknown my mentor in battle was his calmness of battle. And my question was, how does this man maintain his composure? Under this intense artillery bar?
Mark 1:08:05
Okay, so I don't want to stop you. But that is the magic, right? So that is what we're talking. I think that answered the question for me of this context. Like, why do you choose that guy's a coach? He's calm under pressure. Like, I don't even know what that means. But there's a depth and power, there's a character there. I need to discover what that is. What does that mean? And it's and if you if you tap into that wisdom, everything else kind of
1:08:30
flows from that brilliantly shot. And that brought me back to him 30 years later, that stayed with me? How does he stay that cool? How can he achieve that much? How could he overcome such odds? How could he be so compassionate? How could he take care of everybody? How could he defeat an enemy sois an enemy force 10 times the size and be as cool as a cover? I need to understand that and I need to understand that that was a part of me that internally if the logically I was saying I have no problems I have no trauma I got through the war fine. That was the part of me that was saying there's an internal lack of calm that I need. And I need to connect with him.
Mark 1:09:15
See, saw the contrast you were drawn to a light and that began the journey of coaching yourself. You him him coaching you getting getting to uncovering the dissonance.
1:09:28
Exactly. Exactly. How did he stay so calm? Was he such an inspiring leader? How could he rally people to stand firm, even under the hell of a 45 minute non stop artillery bombardment, where our bodies were literally shaking in voluntarily? What power of leadership that he possess? I need to know that.
Mark 1:09:52
I don't want this to be a non sequitur and throw you off. So just ignore the question if it doesn't make sense, but how does vulnerability play into that? was being vulnerable. He show vulnerability was vulnerability, something you saw in him in some way.
1:10:06
He showed humanity. He showed humility. He showed concern. He showed love care for us as soldiers, not to waste their lives, not to send us into futile battles that he would not participate in. He cared for us, we cared for him, there was some sort of connection, human connection that was essential in the greatest leader I'd ever seen.
Mark 1:10:33
The concept of vulnerability is very popular right now. And I believe in it. And I think I've taken a little bit wholesale. And I'm trying to reprocess, like, because I've sat in most of the time I say, the leadership team, we're coming together, we want to be vulnerable and open, like I'm scared of the outcome, and I want to fight to win. And if you do this, except that one leader in the room can be open and say, like, I'm scared to we're gonna, we're in this together, that's cool. It brings brings the team together. But then from a leadership perspective, I leave the room and go in front of the staff and the team, what does it look like to be vulnerable in front of them? Because I've had teams Look at me, like, I'm nuts, when I say like, you got to be vulnerable in this room. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? That's weak. And I'm like, you know, it's not weak. It's not what I mean. And so I'm not great with the language of explaining when and how and why.
1:11:19
Great question. vulnerability, is a leadership tool to build trust. And the amount of trust we generate, will be proportional to the level of our authentic vulnerability, like anything, like any buzzword, that becomes a mantra, people will say it and go through the motions. The real tool, the real purpose of it, the real purpose of leadership is for people to do things, when we're not there, when we can't see them. But we leave that that imprint of trust that we trust, when I show that I'm vulnerable, I'm honest, not as a manipulation. But if I really want you to do what you need to do, even though it's difficult, when I'm not there, and the instinct is to cover it up, or do it half assed, or just not be as effective as I could we just go through the motions. We do things for causes for people that are greater than ourselves. What's the thing that's going to be greater than my own self interest in the moment when I see I want to get out of the spot because it's too hot? I don't want to do this job. I want to finish the, you know, I'll finish these. I'll stop working. It's five o'clock, the assignment is not done, or am I going to stay till it's done? Because there's a higher, a higher cause I believe in a person, a group and organization a leader who's real? Who's given it all for me, I'm going to do no less.
Mark 1:13:03
Yeah, it's in that realness. You know, Patrick lencioni talks about this and the Five Dysfunctions of a team which I always teaching my clients about. The bottom layer, the foundation is trust. The opposite of trust is invulnerability. I think that tells a story. If trust comes from people saying, Is that me? Was it me? Was it on me? I think it is me. It's on me. It's Extreme Ownership. Is Jocko willing, you know, it's like, it's on me. How about that? It's totally on me. I think that's the essence of what vulnerability is. And I think the most vulnerable people are the strongest, which is different than this weakness of sitting duck loner?
1:13:42
Yeah, I think vulnerability is a tool to build trust. It's also it's a way of being real. And people know, when people are being real or not. Most of our experiences are superficial and unreal. And we're not trusting them. Yeah. What we really crave is real experiences with real people are really authentic. And that's where and when we find that we want to follow them.
Mark 1:14:09
The contradiction I think comes from, you have to be strong enough to be truly vulnerable. Like if you're really in bad shape, like you can't afford to be vulnerable. Like, if you're if you're just not in the right mindset, you don't have the capacity, that you are vulnerable, somebody needs to take care of you. If you're a leader, you can't in that leadership position. You have to be actually strong enough that when you let the guard down, there's still a lot of strength left and there's you're like, you know, let's be real. Let's show what real and give people a sense that this is not a show.
1:14:46
Right? I think in our mind, sometimes there's an equation between invulnerability and strike. You can say anything to me. I'm not going to show an emotion. I'm not going to be hurt. You can do anything to me. I'm strong. That proves that I'm not strong because I'm And vulnerable. Yeah. And I think where our society's progressed to the point where we understand that that's not real, that that kind of brittle strength can shatter in the moment of need. Yeah, what we're looking for is the real strength inside underneath. That's why we're being vulnerable to get to that real strength and be real, connect real relations that inspire people when we're not there.
Mark 1:15:25
So that's, that's, that crystallized it for me to really had it to talk about what the power of vulnerability is. It's about access to authenticity, it's access to what what is actually real, what is the real problem as a diversion, as opposed to the mislead? Like, maybe I need to develop something, maybe I should have done something differently in the future I could. That's where the trust comes from, that there's nothing hidden, and the what remains is still great. And so it's that authenticity that we're trying to build. Well, that was a very powerful concept. For me, that might be a good place to end. That. Is there anything you'd like to share and final thoughts?
1:16:06
Mark, this has been fascinating. I have no idea where this was going to go when we started either. That's how this works. But I know you Mark I had trust. I didn't know where it was gonna go. I knew it was going to be a fascinating, interesting, interactive dialogue. It's been illuminating for me, I appreciate the opportunity. You can reach me at gaadi dot paulick. That's ga di dot p as in Peter O, LL AC k at
Mark 1:16:33
Vistage in our welcome. What I'm sorry, I just talked over there. So make sure you get this stuff in the show notes. So let's say your email address again, but we'll make sure that it's clickable in the in the notes.
1:16:43
Sure. It's got that pollock@vistage.com I will have a website up probably within the next 90 days or so Gotti pollock.com, where you can see more but the five core leadership powers So Mark, thank you. It's been a wonder.
Mark 1:17:00
Thank you. You're an inspiration. I appreciate it. You've got so much experience and I'm really glad you could take some time and share your experiences with the group. Thank you, sir.