Lesa is an EOS Implementer who started her career with the Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education, where she created her own curriculum to help staff members transition from terminals to personal computers. She went on to work for Stewart Enterprises in the Death Care Industry, first as an office manager for a Fort Worth funeral home, and then as a cemetery manager for a Pearland funeral home.
Today, I sit down with Lesa, a fellow EOS Implementer, as we go over what it feels like being on the frontlines during the ongoing COVID pandemic and trying to help businesses survive and stay in control. We ponder over the surprisingly good things that have come out of this crisis and how it has pushed companies to be better versions of their current selves and things we wish companies would keep doing when we slowly go back to normalcy.
1:27 What we learned about ourselves during the COVID crisis
07:19 You cannot over-communicate in a crisis
16:35 - Company core values become battle-tested during a crisis
19:47 - People default to their default when things become tough
24:08 - Having the right people in the right seat makes a big difference
28:57 - As a leader, sometimes you have to be the bad guy for the greater good
34:35 - People can get strapped in the now, they don't see what the future is like
41:21 - Don't just try to be efficient, be human as well.
46:42 - You get more authenticity when you pair good news with a sense of struggle
1:02:14 - The Reverse Accountability Chart as a tool for businesses who are struggling with sustainability
1:09:32 - Our role as coaches in helping teams make hard decisions and move forward
1:13:21 - How do coaches raise their game? How do they raise the bar?
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
LESA SKIPPER:
https://www.wvebizcoach.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesaskipper
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
May 26, 2020, Wednesday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, team, quarterly, business, core values, conversation, thinking, integrator, important, visionary, company, leader, person, world, seat, pandemic, talk, week, leadership team, peacetime
SPEAKERS
VO, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Martin Henderson, Leary and my name is Mark. And I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help people get more control of their business. And part of how I do that is by letting you listen in on a conversation between two people who have a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world. So you can listen in and in about subjects that you may know something about. But start to get some more nuance and details that can allow you to really get more of a control of that and, and break through the ceiling and really, really get the results you want. From those details in the in the depth of conversation you don't normally have access to all the while hopefully being entertained and getting some some engagement in a deep way. And so today, I've got a great guest that I really think you'll enjoy. And Lisa is an EOS implementer, which is what I do I in many things I do, but one of the things I do is implement Eos. And she does that as well. And she has a background in education, and training. And now she spends her time really helping leadership teams get what they want from their business. And so I welcome somebody who is in the in the in the front lines in the trenches with me working with the company's leadership teams, at a time when this call is really critical. So welcome, Lisa Skipper. Thank you. I'm happy to be here today. So I have a question. I'm gonna kick this off to really, this is a hard question. I was asked to me and I struggled to answer it. What have you learned about yourself? during this crisis,
01:41
I actually learned something really important about myself, I've always considered myself to be an introvert. I'm just as happy being in my bedroom with a book as I am with people. Although when I'm with people, I can absolutely be on and be on stage and, and teach and train. But it wears me down at the end of the day, I'm tired. What I learned during this crisis is that I need more interaction with people than I thought I did. I miss it more than I thought I would I thought I'd be just
Mark 02:14
fine. Well, so what happens when you don't get it?
02:19
It's almost a depression. It's almost I will find myself sitting in front of the TV wasting a lot of hours. Okay? How do you get yourself out of that funk? I call somebody, I literally will just open up my phone and try to figure out who needs a phone call, that can be one of my kids, one of my grandkids, person in my church doesn't matter. Just call somebody and start talking. Get out of me.
Mark 02:51
What happens in that conversation that brings you back around
02:56
just the human interaction, being able to talk with another human being and see where they are and be interested in them. It gets me out of my own headspace, and more, in a better place to be
Mark 03:14
interesting. So I have a similar learning and that is that I can be very productive about myself. And I can especially when there's a big project or something and the podcast and all the materials I've been working on for helping leadership teams that are stuck, get out of their crisis and funk. But I have found that I can hit a wall and not know it, but just a chance to get super frustrated. And then I realized that when I bring the right people into the conversation, which sounds silly and as I say this out loud it's just amazing how much faster things progress if I bring in the right experts and I've got the right person who's can do website design and content creation or writing or just strategy. And suddenly it's it's electric, what can happen when we when people interact. So it really is a chemistry of there's there's time for individual independent work and there's time to really bring the team in and get to so much more. With with multiple people, multiple minds, multiple ideas flowing around, then you can just one person thinking thinking thinking about whatever they're thinking about in circles.
04:31
Exactly. I think I found that it's way more powerful in my head. And when I start talking out loud to someone else, I realize I have way more to learn than I thought I did.
Mark 04:44
Way more to learn than you thought you'd okay.
04:46
Yeah. Because you think you've got it all straightened out in your head. You can you you have it all figured out. But then when you start saying it out loud to another person and they start giving you feedback. You realize that That wasn't as powerful as you thought it was. And right, have more. Yeah.
Mark 05:03
And that's a classic visionary integrator relationship thing where the visionary is doing that. And I do that I'm a visionary, sort of by DNA. And I get a combination of that factor, which is, I got it figured out, let's go and try to explain it to somebody they're like, what about those 25 steps in between A and A an x? Oh, great point. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I've also found additionally that I've been just stuck, like, okay, it isn't figured out in my head. And, and I'm just felt stuck, I was stuck. I didn't know what to do. And, and so then when I finally had the conversation with somebody, and everything just sort of flowed right into, into into picture, I was like, yeah, you have to talk to people, you have to talk to me, I got such I think I just built a habit, that if that I wasn't talking to people, I was just working, working, working heads down. And I had not built into my routine, the right rest of the advisory team for the new things like that's probably the literate learning. So in my past, habits, patterns, processes the team has outlined for the things I'm developing new, I don't have the team outline yet. So I haven't figured out exactly when this subject comes up. Oh, that's the call that I made to this person. And that's the person on the accountability chart in my organization that because maybe I'm adding seats on my accountability chart or people to my, my resource pool, that they need to start thinking, I haven't built the habits yet, but they're there. And so that's been very freeing to me, I've added people to my team. And there's, I've got a content person, really writer, and I've got somebody else who is on the design and strategy strategy side for for the marketing pieces. And I was trying to figure that stuff out on my own, and I was just going in slow motion. So that's been interesting. So how does that? How have the leadership teams you've been working with, dealt with that communication? obstacle, the, there's a lot of newness on right now. And so people are gonna have to have conversations with other people, are you finding your leadership teams having those conversations, or heads down?
07:12
I think it's, it's a little bit of both. At first, it was heads down, we're in the middle of a crisis. And the more I talked to them, the more I helped them to see that you cannot, you literally cannot over communicate in a crisis, you have to be talking to your team more than you think you need to. Because they will create a story in their own head if you don't fill in that space. And once they really got that, then things started moving. Because they started having more conversation than they thought they needed to have. And that was really yeah,
Mark 07:51
I've definitely seen teams doing that. And this is, this helps me put a couple things into words. The one is that, that you've got to fill that void, for sure their imagination is is way more active. And the shelf life of your message to them has dropped off by 80%. Like if you say, Hey, we're good, everything's cool. You know, talk to you next quarter, that worked in peacetime and wartime that last like two hours, they're confident in what you said, until they check out the next news cycle. And now now it's all kind of shattered. So you got to you got to plug into that, which is, so that's helpful in filling the void. But there's also this I do see leadership teams who are like, we have our orders, we our marching orders, which that might be their wording. And it might be they might not have any orders they might have a to do list that where did it come from? I don't know. But they feel like you know, we're working we're turning the crank. And and what I find is that they haven't really had full conversations, they haven't filtered out nonsense activities. So what do you what have you experienced in the How did leadership teams you work with touchback, get get in touch with reprioritizing, and find out what really important.
09:10
It really was those weekly level 10s they became so much more important. Getting that team together, getting the list of what, what all the issues are. I had a couple of teams that let that slide. We're too busy. We're in the middle of a pandemic. We don't have time for these leadership team meetings, we can't carve out 90 minutes to meet together. And when they did that they lost they lost focus, they lost. What was really important because here I am sitting at my house thinking this is what's important, but I don't talk to my team to know what's really important. And prioritizing the list because what was on the list in February is probably still at the bottom of The list. It is not. It's probably still down there. And because it's not important now. And if we're talking about those things that were on the list in February, right now, we're probably not talking most important.
Mark 10:18
That's exactly right. And so just for the listeners who don't know, the, we use a lot of EOS language, the weekly level 10. That's the EOS tool for the weekly pulse for the leadership team. And ultimately, all leadership teams throughout the organization should have this weekly pulse based on this 90 minute agenda that's really focused on identifying the critical roadblocks and opportunities for the weak and knocking them out and getting back to work. And it's just very, very powerful agenda. But that's the tactical side. So it's really important. And it plugs right into that first topic where if we're not having those weekly conversations, some organizations needed to move that to like to daily and I had I had one team that once or twice a week, level Tenzin plus twice a day huddles, so they are meeting you know, 12 times a week.
11:08
Yeah, I have teams that are doing that as well, especially the ones that went remote. They definitely felt like they needed that daily huddle at the beginning of the day. And then an idea of what what really happened during the day because what you use experience this, I'm sure as well, what you thought today was going to be is not what today was the everything was moving so fast and is still that way. All it takes is for a news announcement that certain businesses are going to open up this week for your priorities to immediately change
Mark 11:45
for sure. And so that kind of flows into the other end of that I've had a lot of teams who say, you know, we're communicating on a very rapid pace. Everybody knows what they're doing on a daily basis. The quarterly off site, you know, I just don't think that's the thing to do right now. And how have you How have you handled that reaction?
12:05
I actually haven't had that all of my teams. I guess I'm just lucky. But all of them really have looked forward to the quarterly. Now I've had to do them remotely. But they, I had one team, that's a tech team, and they had to cut their team in half. So the leadership team is now got a day job of doing what they laid off their people to do. And their leadership job at night. So they are working like crazy trying to just keep the business together. And when it came time for their quarterly, I expected to hear something like that from them. And it was in March, okay. Yeah, yeah. But they absolutely said, No, we need it. And the visionary was really the person that was dialed in the most to say, I need to get my head out of these weeds. I need that day, I need it more than probably the rest of my team. So we're having it.
Mark 13:10
Interesting. So I have, I would say 80% of my teams were? Well, I don't know, half of them. Were ready to go knew the importance of it. Another 30% were like, you tell us man, I will for doing this. And then there was a few stragglers who were like, yeah, I think we're good. And I'm like, Yeah, I got 100% response rate on people who have had quarterlies. In fact, this is worth noting. So the the people who did the quarterly off site. Without objection, almost all of them ended the day with something that sounded like, okay, I thought this was gonna suck. I thought this is going to be a waste of time a little bit. I was just kind of taking it on faith. But this was super powerful. And this was what we needed to get on track. And it has got us fired up. And what I'm seeing is that with the urgency, and this is good and bad. And I want to talk about this in a second is that there's a lot of sort of damage control crisis management here. But there's also catch the rebound take the offense side of this, which is really starting to as the pivot that's where I'm going to I'm really starting to I've been collecting information and working on ways to really focus that that offensive side of how do we take advantage of this but what we're finding is this urgency combined with our long term values, our core values, our core focus, our even our target market and looking at what we wrote down for our long term objectives. Like when we're under fire when we look at that, and we say, yeah, that's us, man. That's we got to do that that's worth fighting for. That's worth sacrificing for. We cut out all the BS and get right to it and we stopped messing with pet projects that are pointless. We stopped dealing with politics, we just go we got to do this now and everything else can wait or we look at that and go Yeah, I don't really think that was that great. It's not that great now is probably not that great ever. So we're using that to really to focus in on on that. And at the end of the day, these teams have ended our early, they'll end with more focus, they won't have had any patience for sidebars, they won't have any patients for politics. And they will say things like, we have never operated this sufficiently before. And we can never let this go. We need to be operating at this level of effectiveness, efficiency and cultural intensity, how do we preserve it? And that's very exciting to me.
15:35
It is to Me, too. I've seen how core values and really knowing where you're going and exactly how you're going to get there is being battle tested. It's it's like you said it's either, yes, this is who we are. And this is what we're doing, or I don't know what we were thinking. Yeah, that's not who we are. Yeah, clearly, that's not who we are.
Mark 16:00
So yeah, people, people. So I want to make that. I listen to these podcasts over and over again. And I hear sometimes I'll talk about something pretty conceptually. So I want to, and you can help me on this, when you hear me talk about something or if you say something, let's make this as tangible and as real as possible for the listener so they can know exactly what this means. So core values, the three to seven statements that will help you hopefully closer to three, for sure, you can't remember more than about four or five. And so if they help us have conversations about our culture, the define how we can clearly say you're, you're a fit for the culture, you're not a fit for the culture. And some things that were cultures are family oriented. And they say we treat each other like family or something like that actually, actually not a core guy have I encountered but there are several, that means something kind of like that, I found that those cultures have very seamlessly risen up, they're just sort of they've lived that portlet we act like a family, we take care of each other ever, the trust is super high. And they're just This is amazing. Not all core values have manifest like that, like I've got a kind of a hard charging technical culture, and they have a core value, that means something kind of like, gets it done at all costs. And they've discovered that their people didn't seem to be getting it done at all costs. And what we had to dig into was that we didn't define it all that well. And if it starts to include taking care of your family, the behavior looks a little different. So we had to, we had to reimagine what does getting it done, and how to have a conversation with a very of the core value fit person whose priorities have changed a little bit. And so now we got to be able to describe this. Now how do we talk about the conversate, which actually ended up the solution to that, by the way, it was increasing meeting pulse, because we didn't know what people were doing. And so we needed to make sure we were asking questions about what are you working on. And if it means taking care of your family. Cool. We want to help you do that. Because you're a go getter, and we're go getters, but we needed to make sure we were living into that core value. And we had to change our process to get there. So what else do you what are you seeing in that?
18:09
I had a maybe this is peculiar to IT teams. But I also have an IT team who has a core value of we're in it together it
18:18
It's funny, the company I was talking to IT IT company was getting it done at all cost like it Yeah, so
18:25
it might be and that helped them to really see some people problems. Once this pandemic hit. They had more people problems than they thought they had Ogoni and because now this, we're in it together, became tested, it was battle tested. And not everybody lived up to that. And so it was very challenging for this team to see people that they loved and care about that actually didn't really exhibit those core values. Once it became hard,
Mark 19:06
so I want to dig into it a little bit more. And I know you probably don't have all the story because you send your leadership team back into the field, and then they kind of go with it. But what do you what do you think happens there was were they not being honest, before the crisis? Did did people changed? Were they you know, how did they get themselves into that gap?
19:25
I really think that a lot of it had to do with they really liked the people. And so they were somewhat blind to the fact that they really weren't a core value fit. And then once everything hit, you can't be blind anymore. You either fit or you don't it people default to their default, right when things are tough. And I think that's what they ended up seeing was the default that they didn't want to see before and now they have to So
Mark 19:59
one of the ways I Test. And this is not foolproof. But one of the ways I test core values is even under stress, these core values should be somewhat and so evident. Sometimes they accelerate and become more evident. Sometimes they take a hit, there are core value behaviors that do take a slight hit, but it should be very visible, even under stress. And so this is a distressing event. And so you're seeing people really say, nevermind, I could fake it for a while, but I really can't I can't do it right now.
20:28
Exactly. You can't fake it for ever, especially in this scenario.
Mark 20:35
So you you talk to a team and you get the sense that there's some percentage of their population of their census that are not core value fits. What do you tell him?
20:46
Well, they're not going to invite them back. When it comes time to come back. And that was a decision that was hard fought with the team. But they are clear on that now.
Mark 21:00
Okay. So you're thinking of a very specific case. So stay there. So when we think of specific cases, specifically, it helps us make this tangible. So they had already furloughed people. Okay. I see companies who have not yet and there they have, they're trying to figure out what to do. And I encourage people to use the fear of dying, the fear of bad outcomes to speed their decision making process up and hold themselves more accountable to excellence and fit. Are you seeing anybody get stuck there?
21:42
Actually, I have a success story. They're one of my teams is a tax and accounting firm, and their world was rocked by all of this. It was in the middle of tax season, which is very different from this tax season that they are experiencing, and they've been in the business for 30 years. Prior to this happening, though, they had been very intentional, about quickly making changes, if there was not a core value fit, it took them a while to get there, like four years into the EOS process before they were willing, honest, it's a
Mark 22:21
long years, people should run on and do run on iOS their entire life, but thinking about when we tell people you should be graduated in two years, you should have been shipped the wrong way. I shouldn't say that, because everybody's at their own pace. And some some companies kind of jackrabbit their way to graduated in a year. And some people that just, there's only so much change they can tolerate but that but the bottom line is for years, and I know you, as a listener take what you want from that, like, are you on the four year journey? Be honest with that, there's cost to that. And it's, it's a choice. And if there are some people who are like, I'm sorry, but I'm not waiting two years, we are going to be 100% EOS compliant. And we're and we're going to be super aggressive. And we're gonna get exactly what from from this business right away unless a year, it's choice. So continue, I kind of put you out there
23:07
it is. No, that's fine. I think that it's not that they didn't want to be. And it's not even that they didn't think they were there along the journey. It's that it's a process. Not everybody does this at the snap of a finger. For many, it's a process of getting there and seeing it and recognizing it and being willing to make the change fast. It's difficult to get to that place. And they thought they were there. But then oh, no, we're not. And then they think they're there. And oh, no, we're not. But this time they were there. And it was before the pandemic hit. And they were able to pivot and go fully remote, and still serve their clients with almost no hiccups. Which is amazing. And that's what right people will do is they will make that transition easy. It would have been so much harder three years ago.
Mark 24:08
Yeah, right people makes a big difference. For sure. And one thing I have recently come to emphasize about right people, we've got this tool to a couple tools of coming together, we've got the accountability chart, the foundation of accountability comes from the accountability chart for a lot of people who learn the accountability chart for the first time, it seems like an exercise you do to kind of get a sense of structure and you kind of move on. And that is not how I've learned to teach it. Learn to teach it as like, it is the sacred foundation like you cannot build a skyscraper on a six inch concrete foundation. You got to this is that foundation, you got to really get good at it. Core Values we've talked about and you must have people that's the right people. That's how you know the people should be in your presence, regardless of what we're They do. And those come together to be in this tool we call the people analyzer, but this right people write seats. And all that to say that I can describe for you, right people, right seats, right? People who have the core values, and right seats, there's a specific job that this organization needs, it's very clear and easy, very easy to understand. And we can put the person in that seat and they get it, they understand it, they want it, they're trying really hard, and they have the capacity to do it. It's very simple. That is not a light switch event to get good at that. Like, I cannot emphasize that enough, because I even had to learn that, like it's an iterative process, like, what does the right seat look like, you have to keep trying that over and over again, to get a little bit better because internet accountability chart, we're going to say you can't put the three page job description, you're going to have about five roles, and one, two or three metrics that are going to back that up. That's not, it's almost like Haiku of how much sophistication you have to get down to distilling that. So you can get really good at that. But your first day of doing that, if you put somebody in the seat, it's really easy to miss something critical, and have to have to re negotiate the seat, you know, put somebody in try, it didn't work, why not. And so it's a muscle, you have to do that. So to your story, two years, three years of really getting good at that I in the crisis now. Yep, getting as good as you possibly can at it, have some compassion for yourself for being better, but not perfect yet, I understand that every single month, every single quarter, you're gonna have to raise the bar and ultimately get to that spot.
26:38
You have to be able to truly I love that you said that it's more than just the right person, it also has to be the right seat. And sometimes we put people in seats, because they were good at a different job. So surely, they must be good at this, right. And that's not necessarily true. They need to be sitting in a seat that they love to do and are great at both of those things. And you have to match the person to the seat and it's like a puzzle. But you first have to define what you need in that seat. And you don't just keep people because you love them, they have to be really great in that seat. You can't stick them in there unless they are. And that's difficult. That's really hard to get to that place where you're willing to be that disciplined to let somebody go that you love, because you simply don't have a seat for them.
Mark 27:39
Yeah, so I have illustrated that metaphor, metaphorically, but sort of emotionally. So if you see on your accountability chart, you get the map of all the functions in the business that you need, and you got somebody you love, and you put them into a seat. And you can see that that's not a seat where they excel, you're voluntarily letting them suffer. And that is not the leader you want to be, I'm pretty sure. And so that's not easy. And I think that kind of sums up leadership. In it, you were in the room, this is the room where it happens. And you have the responsibility to get people out of places they can't succeed and won't feel good about their own their own work and their own life and contribution. And met me I want you to assume as a leader that everybody on your team is going to say put me in coach, regardless of their ability. And you have to be and it's not always true. But as a leader, you need to assume that some people will cry uncle and if you really good work with the culture, you can get people say that it didn't work, let me do something different. But as a leader, you have to assume they're gonna say, No, this is great. Now this is working, and you're gonna look good, and it's not working, we need to do something different. And I'm going to have to be feeling like the bad guy for the greater good.
29:04
And that greater good has to be your focus. You have to balance your love of that person. And ultimately, you're in business, to be in business, not to lose your business. You're in business to keep it and so you have to do the greater good for the business as bad as that sounds, but what you're really doing is releasing that person to go someplace where they can be successful. Don't handcuff them to a job, they can't succeed.
Mark 29:33
A lot of people can intellectualize and I've heard of greater good if the business isn't making money. And I think there's some times well what do you tell somebody, a leader when they're stuck, when they kind of go? Yeah, I know. And then you see them kind of staring standing at the edge of the diving board. Like I got to dive into that water, but they're not diving. What do you do?
30:01
I actually just look at them and ask the question, which is, when are you going to do the right thing here? And then just shut up?
Mark 30:12
What do they say?
30:15
You usually can see a lot of pain on their face. And I've had both experiences where one time it was. I know I need to I just can't. Okay. Okay. Then you're choosing, as long as you understand that, and the other one was
30:36
today.
Mark 30:37
Yeah. Okay.
30:39
Yeah. So it really is, where they're at and what they can and can't do. But I think that we're the question and have them answer the question.
Mark 30:50
Yeah. And I think that's ultimately where this lands. You know, I Cameron Harold talks about working with, we talked a couple weeks ago on this podcast about how he will hold people accountable to the minute they'll say, and he's very direct. It'll basically say, like, you know, you need to fire this person, and they'll be willing to do it soon. Like, how soon like, what time Well, today, like what time okay. 415? Great. Okay, text me at 416? Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah, I'm serious. And that's how he holds people accountable. Um, I don't have anybody who's wants me to treat them that way just yet, right now. So it's really more about let's, like you said, I will say there is a right way, there's no, there's no right way, no wrong way. You can move at the pace you want, if you believe it's culturally consistent for you to wait this out and to pay people for non productivity or to figure it out. That can be a choice, but you need to understand the cost. This, the cost of slowness, the cost of waiting is very, very high. And you need to own it, if you're willing to buy your way out of this problem. Understand that there will be consequences for long periods of time, especially for cash strapped businesses or businesses that historically have dry periods, all that dry powder, all that money. Some companies are used to that they're used to kind of going out, we got a lot of cash. So we got no cash, we got a lot of cash, you know, and when they get a lot of cash, then something bad happens. And they wait it out. And other companies. Like, again, this is not a right or wrong thing. But it makes me uncomfortable. When if somebody says you know what, you know, we're if we're going to take care of our employees in that way. Okay. Just bear in mind that, like you're getting very close to add out of money. And if you if that happens, like nobody wins, the companies I work with, that are at the highest level of performance are the ones who have lots of cash, lots of great people, lots of very, very concerned and core value fit awesome people. And they tightened down quickly, they shut down immediately, no extra expenses, they make a plan to reduce. And then as they move through it, they're like, yeah, we're really killing it. We're doing great work, we see a lot of optimistic things happening, the team's operating a super high level. And you know, we're playing it super conservative, as well as offensive, I'm thinking one particular company who plans to be two quarters ahead, at least in software development features against their competitors, because they played super great defense up front. And they stopped the bleeding. they assess the situation. And they went right to work on offense. And they're like, okay, we know what the features we were going to work on next year, we're going to be and they're going to be super valuable right now full steam ahead developing these things. And so all the money they're spending is not like buying time, it's gaining ground. And it's exciting to work with companies who are that serious. And so that's, that's where I'm pushing people like, let's open the door. You know, what, do we know what the blood loss looks like? Okay, have we sized it? What's our run rate? Okay, stop the defense, the deep, you can over defend. But you should if you did it quickly, you you're in good shape. What does offense look like?
34:17
Exactly. You know, you said you were a visionary. I'm more than integrator. And so I can get stuck in analysis paralysis is what I call it, because I love the details. And I will spend more time trying to gather more details than actually moving forward. And I think that that's one of the things that's happening right now is people are so involved in the details of what's happening right now. They're not looking around the corner. They're not seeing what the future might look like. They're not planning for that. They're being strapped by the now. And that's dangerous. It's dangerous for me. I've learned To really understand when it's happening, and then get myself out of it, I have some strategies for breaking out of that analysis paralysis. But that's what businesses are doing sometimes too, is as a business, they're so worried about the now that they're not planning for coming out of this really strong. And they have to be looking at that.
Mark 35:23
You're not gonna in Honestly, I personally experienced a little that paralysis, not the analysis, that integrator side about over tactical lising and maybe just looking at decisions and not making any of them. That's a piece of this not making decisions, there's paralysis that comes from that. But it was also in the first weeks, three, four or five weeks. Now, maybe not that long, two or three weeks of everything was new, everything was uncertain. And so I was just collecting all the information that I could possibly collect. And the the overwhelm that came with trying to learn everything that was unknown was completely paralyzing to me. And so it wasn't until I, I had our quarterly meeting, actually, on my team, we had our quarterly and annual was really it was a kind of an abbreviated annual that I, at the time, just like a lot of my clients thought this is not the time for this. And we've got to go to work and really doing the annual planning, this doesn't make a lot of sense for me to right now. But I got the block on the calendar, let's let's do it, I don't have a good reason to not do it. And I couldn't believe how galvanizing it was to look back at the long term goals and say this is this is the time for this, this is this the our long term vision has never been more relevant. People need to know this is what we need to do. And it allowed us to focus and tune out all of the other things that were distracting. Like, I don't need to become an epidemiologist, I don't need to know the economics of all the things on the world. What I need to know is how to get leadership teams focused and productive and get companies to survive and thrive and dominate their competition over the next several quarters. That's all I need to know. And I can tune out everything else. So that helps me speed up a huge hit on a huge level. So I didn't have I didn't have decision paralysis that I did that I did have planning analysis paralysis, I needed to start pulling people in who could challenge my plans and put some steps to them because I was going from step a to step z. So me as the visionary was just trying to just leave and leave and I wasn't getting anywhere. So by bringing people in to have these conversations and hat and really do some, some much more focused, discussions of the quarterlies are is so valuable. That's where most of that happens.
37:40
And that in companies, there's a visionary and integrator relationship that is so important here, especially during this time, because the visionary is doing exactly what you were doing, envisioning new ways and new things and coming up with 20 new ideas. Five of them are good, you know, that kind of thing. And they need that counterpart, integrator to really challenge that. That sounds great. What about this, this, this and this? And that's when you said early on? Oh, yeah, that won't work. But you need someone you need that balance between the two people. And I think that relationship in a business right now is more important than it's ever been. They have to be on the same page about what the future looks like. And the only way they're going to get there is to have those conversations and not be stuck in their own heads. Because they'll have the columns.
Mark 38:38
And that's all. I agree with all that. I want. I want to add that sometimes as a leader, you feel I felt that I've heard my team sick Well, well, I don't think we I don't think we need the quarterly. I think everybody knows what's going on. And I kind of dig into that. And it's okay, well, we'll issue solve for Well, we'll talk about on the team t at RTR week, level 10 and see what the team wants to do. But I'm kind of skeptical where they're gonna move forward. And I can visionary calls me back. I was surprised everybody's really excited. Everybody really wants to do this. I'm like, yeah, you feel like you don't want to waste time you feel like you've over communicated already, you haven't as a as a leader, you haven't over communicate. They still want more instructions. The plan you gave him last month and last week, and maybe even yesterday is aging at hyperspeed. And so getting getting the team back in the room to reassess the plan and make sure we're doing the right stuff is you just can't do it enough right now.
39:33
You cannot over communicate, it is, I think, virtually impossible. You can hover too much, but I don't think you can over communicate. And I think that that's really the lesson in this environment is that you have to say it again and again and again. And it's changing so you have to be able to be ready to pivot and then change the message.
Mark 39:59
Well, that's it And one of the one of the ingredients that I hear from a lot of people that I've, I personally was recommending this early on. And since then, I've seen many people support it, that you got to communicate with high frequency, which you've already clearly covered. But also brutal honesty. And that little ingredient there changes the game, what doesn't, it shouldn't, you should always be doing it. But in a time of uncertainty and rapid change, when you put that ingredient in there, it's it changes the color of everything, because some of that brutal honesty could sound like, I have no idea what's about to happen. And you have to say that, here's what I do know, it's like this teaspoon of information, I would like to add to a drop to this teaspoon of information of certainty, every single day, and I've got gallons and gallons of uncertainty. And as that changes, I will let you know, which, you know, when I that metaphor should make it clear that every drop of certainty is going to be really game changing. And every drop that comes in every hour every day is that's your next balls. You got it. You gotta say I gotta drop. I got another drop, fit. Now. I gotta have a cup of information. Look at this. It was a teaspoon just a couple days ago. Soon we'll be we've got enough soup for everybody.
41:21
Exactly. You know, last week, I participated in a, an online conference with Patrick lencioni. And he said something that was so important that I think that we're missing as we're being separated. He talked about all these zoom meetings that we're having, and we're trying to be really efficient. And you need to stop and be human. And ask how people are doing, ask what's going on in their world. Because right now they're taking on whole new roles. They have everybody at home, and they have kids at home that they're now homeschooling, and they never thought they would be doing that. And they're working from home. And they're trying to balance all of that. And what he said would be a crime is when we get back to work to take out the human because we've been doing that How are you? What are you doing? How are your kids doing? Is everybody healthy? We're asking these really important questions. Now, just don't lose that later. Because it will show in your team and how much they think you care about them. Because you've cared a lot in the last few weeks, don't stop that going forward. And it's been a really interesting thought to think about, we try to be very effective. But that's not what these zoom calls are about. You also have to add the human.
Mark 42:53
So that's thought provoking. So when I think about asking those questions, how are you in a deeper way, and instead of a two minute check in might be a 20 minute check in one on one or as a team and allowing things to go a little bit longer, we try to our level 10 meetings will be a five minute check in and I've had some really good meetings that have been like 25 minute check in. And why I think that's important is that in peacetime, to some extent you can make some assumptions about how people are and that things aren't changing very often. And right now, you can't you can't make many assumptions and I'm seeing people profess to be totally fine and totally okay. And clearly based on work quantity or work quality, something is up, we got to find out what it is. And so you can't assume so I'm thinking you know what, how we move back into into peacetime or maybe not even and I'm realizing that terminology is inaccurate and are imprecise anyway because as we transition towards normalcy, which may not be the same as peacetime but it may be different than our early early wartime situation. How do we measure back the assumptions? Okay, we 25 minute check in we can't do that. That's That's too expensive. Five Minute check in might not be enough. We know each other a little bit better. How do we keep that conversation? At that higher level? How do you how do you think you do that? How do we have these conversations back in with more efficiency? Because I it's not sustainable 25 minute check ins 30 minute hour check ins not sustainable? What do we do
44:36
know and when things start slowing down and the world isn't changing as quickly. I do think that those can dial back but I think that we do have to keep it's one of the things I love about our level 10 meetings and that check in because it is decidedly both personal and professional. And I and I agree. I have seen some times 20 minute check ins. And I also agree you can't keep that up long term, you do have to find a way to be checking in with each other on a deeper level. I just don't want to go back to saying how are you? Yeah, let's get into the meeting. I think you have to ask how are you and really want to know what the answer is?
Mark 45:22
Yeah, I have experienced sporadically in peacetime when someone has a bad day. And they bring their authentic self into the conversation and say, you know, it's been very hard for me and my family for the last couple of months. But I'm grateful to be here with you guys. Because this is a great team, and we're doing great stuff. And that that was the most powerful check in I'm thinking of a very specific person, when I first experienced that was very powerful check in, and it was a great guy on a great team. And so I brought that thinking into this. So you know, you may not have had a great day, if you're going to bring in some good news to the meeting, which is the the first agenda item good news, personally, professionally. How much more powerful is that, when you bring that with a sense of authenticity, the idea didn't have a language for before I didn't have I didn't wasn't able to say, you know, don't sugarcoat it. So just give some good news, I want people to think in terms of positive filters and bringing good news in every meeting. But I was just really surprised that how much more powerful it can be when you bring a little contrast and an authenticity and you say like, Man, you know, I just really sucked getting out of bed this morning, or you know, I just whatever is going on. And and you pair that up with something you are truly grateful for. And maybe that's the formula, maybe the that formula is bring your good news, with, with some authenticity with with the realities, the some recognition of something that's hard or brutal or unhappy, in a sense of fighting the fight. I don't know. And I think there's always a fight even in peacetime we're not we're not showing him business, lazy, you know, almost every business I'm working with any time has a powerful vision, they're trying to make real against some forces, you know, they're trying to win. And so I think that needs to show up the sense of, of struggle.
47:19
I agree, I think that when we bring our real selves, and I've experienced those check ins as well, more recently, where people are being more authentic, more real about what's going on in their lives. It's like now we have permission to say it. And for some reason we didn't have permission before. But I think we need to keep that that permission needs to stay there to be real about what's really going on. Don't just come and share something surface, share something real.
Mark 47:53
So I think that's it. I'll be really curious to listen to this again and see what the pattern comes from this. But I had a conversation with somebody last week, and we were talking about the job interview process, and how it's a total pattern interrupt to interview somebody remotely now. And for reasons you wouldn't necessarily I didn't necessarily think of and that is that. When you're interviewing a year ago, you know, the drill, you know, the rest of the resume supposed to be you know what, how many interviews are going to be there's going to be pre screen, there's going to be there's testing, there's whatever it is sophisticated interview process. And so you're to some degree prepared for the between three and 10 steps that you're going to go through. And expectations are that you're going to put your best foot forward and each of those audition steps, there's a there's a ritual that goes with it and expectations. Now it's sort of like, I have no idea what the next step is. And yeah, my kids probably gonna be in this interview. Or my dog or my you know, yeah, you want to meet my wife. Yeah, she's right here. Come on in. And so people are dressing different, you're behaving differently. And it's almost like there's so many variables to try to account for. No one's even trying. And so you see a real in depth, the curtains coming down, you see the real person's life, you see how they act in different circumstances that you really had to try to do before you really had to say, oh, we're gonna meet him socially on an interview. We're gonna go out for drinks and I'm gonna invite the spouse out for it and we're gonna see how they act there. Then I'm gonna have them drive their car with me as a passenger and I'm gonna assess out Now you don't have to do that everybody just sort of like this me. Like I'm drinking right now. It's noon. Even if you don't like drinkers, I'm not the right guy for you. So I think that that the curtain coming down in weekly meetings, because why not? The curtain coming down in interviews because like, I can, I can't put the curtain Back up, maybe we're getting more in touch with humanity. And maybe we're more comfortable with being just more and more open and more and more real.
50:11
I just don't want to lose it. I think that's the point. And you talked very early on about what do we want to make? Sure we absolutely do again, and I think you have to do some of that analysis, what's the one thing you want to do? Going forward, and you don't want to lose from this? And what is the one thing you will never do? Again, because there's got to be decisions that have been made in the last eight weeks, that you would not repeat. And you have to learn from that and go forward. And that's all in that context of bringing the team together and having those conversations in, in a way that allows you to still move forward. And that's one of the things I love about the level 10 meetings when I was first introduced to the level 10 meeting. Again, I'm the integrator. So I was in this is, this is awesome. I love it. Because it's structured, and I like structure. And my the visionary I was working with at the time, didn't like structures, she loved having two hour meetings where everybody told you, you know how they're feeling. And, and, and nobody got to have a bathroom break, right? That was, you know, and so to be constrained by 90 minutes and have the constraint of a structure. But this creates the format where you not only get to really see what's important, but you get to really get to know your team members better. Because everybody has to really dig in and be real. And I think we need to keep that. So
Mark 51:56
you said a couple of things that I think are really important. And what are we going to never stop doing now that we're doing it? What are we going to never do, again, that we did before. But there's a there's a third thing that is very interesting to me. And that is what are the patterns that we as leaders tend to repeat that we may have broken out of temporarily, under the stress that are likely to come back without that stress. Because I think that's where growth and leadership comes? Well, it comes in different places. I mean, a lot of a lot of younger leaders, you can kind of give them instruction, and they just sort of take notes, and they're solved. Next thing, next problem, the low hanging fruit kind of fall off the tree. But eventually, as a leader, you start getting harder and harder problems to solve. And those are typically those patterns. And so what patterns Do you see in leaders that you're concerned that without additional growth as a leader will likely return as things normalize?
53:14
Oh, that's a tough question. I think the thing I'm most concerned about and the leaders that I'm working with is that they'll just try to go back to business as usual, and not recognize that we've had a pandemic. This isn't normal. This hasn't been seen in decades. And nobody alive really understands what a pandemic means. And so I think that we're so anxious to get back to normal life, that we will abandon the lessons we've learned, if we don't take stock in them, and really decide we want to be different. And we don't want to go back to that person.
Mark 54:06
So what does it look like? What kind of things do you think are the first ones first things to go?
54:15
that people will decide that? Oh, okay, well, that's over. So I can go back to the way I was managing people before. Do you
Mark 54:23
think it'd be largely conscious? Like the governor open everything up on Friday, Monday's back to normal? Good.
54:32
Yeah, but I'm not sure how conscious that is. I think that we will slip back into that of, okay, that part is over. The hard part's done. We can just go back to the way things were and there's learning that has happened. And if we don't take that learning and use it, specifically how much time you're spending With your people. Yeah. Like, you know, how much time are you giving them of you? And making sure that they enter not only understand where we're going, but how we're going to get there and what their role in that is, and what success looks like. There have been a lot more conversations about that recently. If we just forget about it and go, Okay, well, now I've told them. So we can just go back to the way things work, because we're in the office now. So we don't have to worry about having daily huddles, right. We don't have to do that anymore.
Mark 55:38
Yeah, so this is this is getting complex in my mind, which is not surprising, because my mind is pretty complex. In a good way. What I what I heard in that is that, and I see leaders treating their behavior, their own behavior over the last 689 weeks. Almost like a leadership stimulus package like it is, we are going to spend lots of time and money and energy and kind of fix this. But it's a one time deal. And when we're out, we're out. And we're going to go back. And I think it's more accurate, although not 100%. accurate, it's more accurate to say that you've actually been leading well for once. You should not stop leading well. Now the huddle is a good example, though, where, you know, does everybody need a huddle? No. Some organizations do, I never prescribe a huddle until there is a solid level 10 weekly pulse in place, because it's too expensive and too inefficient, it tries to do too much. If you don't have that good issues solving pulse in place, you must have an annual you must have a quarterly, full day off site. And it weekly level 10 is your leadership team level before you look at anything else. And if those are healthy, and you still need faster pulse information, huddle could make sense. But the pulse requirement will change based on urgency. And if you're high growth, you may need a pulse or faster pulse. And if you're in crisis, you may need a faster pulse as well, anything that creates high change. But that's that's a tactical piece of this. If you're finally really connecting with your team, and your team is really at a high level that that's not over. You need to do that all the time. And so that's that's an interesting way to frame that. do you what do you what percentage do you if your team is think, see it as a one time shot versus this is the new way?
57:39
I actually think it's probably about 5050. Unfortunately, because I have newer clients in the process, than probably you do. So I have some really old I have some really old, it's about half and half and some really new. And because this isn't a muscle that they have really developed, they're newer in the process. I'm afraid that we're going to go back to the old way of doing things, even though they know that this is better.
Mark 58:11
So in the spirit of tangibility, different teams, different industries, very different exposure to this. Essential businesses off many of them, it's almost like nothing changed. If people who were in the in the like, we've been shut down for eight weeks, well can't understand what I'm saying right now. But that is really like that. And there may be a couple office workers work more from home, and they are very much like you said earlier on, okay, or one or both of us said, okay, it's Monday is normal again. And they are they're talking like that they are very much talking like that. And they. So I don't want to judge that. It's important to note that that's a different world, different business. They've adjusted differently. They're their workers in the field have started wearing masks eight weeks ago. And so that's different, right? So I people who were essential businesses or constructors and are in construction, they did take it seriously, I'm thinking of a company that you would probably think of is basically, well, if you're an office worker who was stopped going to the office, and everything became zoom in your whole world, or you had a work that just completely stopped you you would you would look at this, at a company who's doing field construction is it though nothing has changed. Although when you talk to the leadership team, that's not the case. They are very concerned that their teams stay healthy. They understand that if they had to really sit I'm thinking of one particular company, they sent a very powerful message to their entire staff and their construction crews, like go home, if you're not feeling well, you are not going to get fired. And because that's a real concern for that type of work. And they had built trust over the last few years that they meant that Now not all companies enjoy that level of trust, but they had crews who were very open and honest and they could do that and they've been very, very clean and they've had no interruption. But you know, their world isn't really that different other than the people on the front lines were more masks. There are other companies, other organizations who are minute bitten minute to minute like there, without the PPP, they were going to be out. And so they're on super high alert, and the world is so different to them. And they're gonna have to really think about how different it is. In the future, IT services is very different. It's in the middle ground there, there's what is the what is what's the thing, pick a business and describe in detail what their world is, like right now.
1:00:39
Um, you know, I'm, I have a team that is in the medical billing industry. And you would think, because this is a medical pandemic, that there's didn't change, right. But that's not true. All the elective surgeries, all of the, you know, all of the things that were elective, got pushed off. In fact, hospitals are saying, Look, I don't have any money coming in. Because people are getting free treatment for lots of things. Right? And so how do you run a business that is essential, all the medical are essential, but in some cases, they have no money coming in. because nobody's coming for the, you know, stubbed toe, or, you know, I cut my finger, or, you know, the things that you would now stay home for? Because you don't want to go to the doctor because you don't know who's there.
1:01:51
So how are they leading through that? Lots of communication? are they following people?
1:01:57
They've worked really hard not to furlough. And they've worked really hard to try and keep the team, but they're not sure what this looks like coming out. So have you talked to them about the offensive strategy? Yeah, absolutely. We we've looked at a tool that we use in the EOS world is called a reverse accountability chart. What does this look like, if you have to furlough if you have to get rid of people because you'd no longer have the business to sustain the staff that you have. And they've really gotten some clarity about what that might look like, and what it looks like coming around. So
Mark 1:02:41
what were some epiphany for them the accountability, reverse accountability chart, which for those, the accountability that we talked about, that it's the map of what your company looks like, its most clear, simple and efficient, without people in it, it's just the structure of the business. And then you put people in it, we call the reverse accountability chart, the reverse accountability chart, because we want people to think in terms of maybe letting go of growth as the only objective, right? We want to build a structure that might be going the opposite direction of what we were thinking when we wrote our first accountability chart, or second or third, or 10th. And so it creates, I encourage people, in fact, I've got a company I work with, and they say, Well, here's the accountability chart had a division director in each of the cities in Texas. Which makes sense, but now in a virtual world. Do I need anybody in any city? So it not the workload concern? And the three division directors for three cities? Or do you need one? And And that's not just about size, it's about structure. It's about letting it's about what does make sense for the most efficient, effective machine that we can work towards? Are you seeing what are you seeing in terms of open open mindedness on teams for this?
1:03:55
It was really tough at first to think that way. But when when it got really hard, it was easier to look at it with that lens. Like I think that once were put under extreme stress, we're more willing to look at the hard stuff and say, Okay, what does this company look like? If we have half the income? What positions do we absolutely have to have? What can we get away with not having, and really understanding what that structure can look like in a new normal? once they hit the wall, they were very willing to look at it. But I think it took some time to get there because they didn't really want to believe this was going to go on for eight weeks.
Mark 1:04:46
Right. So that wall that's one of those things we can't we can't wait for that as great leaders and Gren and a lot of the companies that come to us are stuck. Right. But they're stuck. They feel stuck, right? And that's one of the places that I find people stay stuck. All right, let's build a structure that's clear, simple and efficient. And some of those teams aren't really that willing. And so this is the time where their willingness goes way up like this could get really bad. And the fear of dying is enough to push them over the edge. And so how do we preserve that? How do we get people to say, nobody wins, you're giving away the the kingdom's riches by not taking this seriously.
1:05:39
Right? You know, the tax firm that I have, they did such a masterful job. Because again, this was a tax season like none other, usually tax season, there was a definite start and a definite end, and every week is an 80 hour week, period, end of sentence. That's what this is. And you sign up for that when you go to work there. This became very different, they bring in they double in size during tax season, because the volume changes during tax season. And when this hit, they had to let go of their tax season help completely, and say, Okay, we have to do this with the full time staff and not have any tax season help. And by the way, we're not going to do tax season hours. And by the way, we're going to have to go remote, talk about really rethinking the structure of things. Yeah. And by the way, April 15, is no longer the deadline. It's changed. And so now we have to decide what that looks like. We're very you this was a, this is a business, it's very used to having that seasonality, where they are 90% of their income in the first four months of the year. And now they're not doing that.
Mark 1:06:58
So what does that look? So that, that sounds like a really great disruption to me, I'm sure it's very painful for them. But having worked with lots of CPAs, and CPA firms, they have that very binary existence, like you can either have time to talk, or we're in a busy season, and you were unavailable for anything other than the work at hand. And I just that's like a miserable life for them. But that's their choice. But it's miserable. For me, as somebody on the outside, it was either trying to use their services or be their friend. And both of those are very hard to do. They're seasonal friends are seasonal human beings, they just kind of come in and out of existence. So do you see that? In that particular case? I know the team you're talking about? Have you met with them for quarterly?
1:07:50
Yes, I have. And it was one of the best quarterlies we've ever had one of the most honest, upfront, willing to face brutal facts, quarterly that we've ever had, is there, Is there gonna be permanent changes as a result of this for them? Yes, I think they have seen where this can be, and they don't want to go back. That was said in our quarterly. Everyone said this was the most open and honest we've ever been. And we don't want to lose,
Mark 1:08:23
okay, so that was because I was going to be skeptical, and I will still be skeptical, because I have said that to myself and every human being, particularly visionaries. integrators may not have this problem, where they like have I'll tell you gonna mean negatively are habits and behaviors that we know don't serve us in addictive patterns and behaviors, things that we do that keep sabotaging ourselves, visionaries are very prone to this. And so when I say that, I said, We are never going to do this again, it kind of takes me back to college, right? Never gonna, I'm never going to hire somebody without the against the wishes of somebody else on my team, I am never going to rush somebody through the hiring process, we are not going to compromise our core values, we are not going to hire without having really clear accountability chart. And we are never going to allow ourselves to have less than 80% of our staff, right people right seats and the remaining 20% are always going to be in the three strikes process. And then what's going to happen? What are the patterns that are gonna come back? So that's what I want to challenge. But so what were they saying was never gonna happen? Again, the openness and honesty,
1:09:32
the being open and honest and putting the business first and really looking at the hard facts and making decisions doing it. Don't just talk about it and hope that it's going to get better, but actually making those hard decisions and moving forward. So what's your role in that as a coach? It's helping them to not lose it. So when I See them slipping? I have to call it out on them, I have to make sure that I'm the person that is helping them do the gut check. Wait, you guys said you weren't going to do that again? Why are we doing this? I think that it's just to remind them where they've been. Because I agree, we are good at forgetting how hard it was just as human beings, we want to put it behind us and assume, okay, great. That was hard. I don't want to do that again. But I don't want to think about it anymore, either.
Mark 1:10:35
Yeah, so I even before all this I have worked with, I'm thinking of one team who had a very difficult decision trying or having to choose to take a partner out of the firm, wasn't a core value fit wasn't this wasn't wasn't a fit in the firm at all. And they've basically fired and bought out one of the three partners. Now it's a two partner firm. And this was in the first six months three to three to six months of maybe first three months of working with me, somewhere in there. And they felt like they had dived into the deep end of the pool. And that was a really big thing for them to do. And then right after that, there was another issue. And and actually, I'm telling, I know, I'm telling the story out of order, but the point is still the same. Because if they listen to this, listen, that's not the order this happened. And but what what, why what happens is that we have a really big decision of really difficult people, person, people, people person, people issue, and like was so traumatic to get this person out. They feel like they're safe. Like we that's behind us, like no, this is business, this is leadership, the next thing is going to happen is hopefully going to be better. But your This doesn't go away, like you are going to get more of these coming at you leadership in business is really hard. And those people issues, those difficult things you can get better at. But it's not just about making the one good decision, it's going to last for the next five or 10 years. It's about one hard decision that makes it 5% easier the next time you have a similarly difficult decision, and then maybe 5% after that.
1:12:09
Exactly. It is about consistently making those hard decisions every time it's in front of you, because it's not going to quit getting in front of you.
Mark 1:12:19
Yeah, yeah. It doesn't turn into smooth sailing. If you if you fire somebody and they're gone, and you get the new person in, what are the odds of that person is perfect? Like, honestly, if you think about the data, not great. Like if you if you don't have a track record for hiring really well, the odds of this next person on that speed that seat being perfect, or a little better than before. Not Trump not transformative. Lee better necessarily. It's so it might take several iterations on that seat, it might if you get that seat, right, there's another seat trying to break. You know, your company is growing. And it's and there's new challenges, and that person's getting burned out, and they were fine last week, or they're not fine this week, and you're not a failure. When that happens. You're normal, you have to just keep eating.
1:13:07
Yeah, you have to it's an iterative process, you are never done. You're never done looking at that accountability chart and defining those seats and getting the right people in. You're never done.
Mark 1:13:21
So you as a coach, how do you raise your game on on raising the bar?
1:13:27
That is an excellent question. One of the things that I took from one of our quarterly as EOS implementers. We all come together every quarter, and learn from each other. And one of the things I took from one of those sessions was that I am not the answer in the room. And I'm an integrator, I like being the answer. I appreciate being the answer. I'm the question in the room. And so I get better when I asked better questions.
Mark 1:14:04
What do you do when you ask the question, the room doesn't seem to either want to answer it or have the answer. I've actually had that too. But both were like they The answer is kind of there and they're not going there. And other times it's like I'm not sure these people have the answer.
1:14:19
That's a good question. I don't know that I know the answer to that question. I'm working so hard on asking the good questions and hoping that I guess I really just restate it and try to push them a little further. If I don't see them rising to that occasion. I think the other thing is, is I have to genuinely be curious. I find that my questions are better and more poignant, which is the thing I can control. When I'm genuinely curious, if I've already made a decision in my head as to what the answer is, then I'm not as good as I could Be? Because I need to be genuinely curious. Why would you say that? Why is that the answer? You know, and keep asking why and keep asking good questions. And being genuinely curious. That's when I do my best work is when I don't think I have the answer. I have to genuinely believe I don't have the answer to this. They do. I just have to help them get there. Have you?
Mark 1:15:27
have you encountered teams that just sort of not not seeming capable?
1:15:35
I actually haven't. So you're scaring me that that might be by future?
Mark 1:15:40
Well, maybe it's just me. I mean, I have, I've worked with teams where I'm just like, I don't think these guys have it. I just think and I didn't, that's not the end of the debate. Because that's really when I put the mirror up and say, am I showing up them? I do I have I brought everything to them. And I really set you know, could I ask the question more directly or better, or bring them some awareness? Because there sometimes there are spots where I'll share my experience? And there's teams that want that and coaching clients? And I have, I asked my individual coaching clients as to how much how much advisor function do you want from him, versus taking you on your unique journey exclusively as a spiritual guide, if you almost in that coaching perspective, and, and usually people want somewhere in the middle, they want my perspective. And so and I try to couch this, all right, this is my perspective, my example. And I'm going to be crystal clear that if I give you something that sounds like advice, I'm not going to be accountable to it. It's you. If you took my advice, and or if you took my experience or my advisory, as something that was a decision making for you, and it doesn't work out for you that's on you, you have to own that. So I'm not simply disclaiming that so. So there are times when I feel like I want to kind of get somebody off the center. And I'll put some couch to experience to kind of get them going in a direction. And other times I see a team that just looking at each other like we aren't selling, and we don't know why. And, and I'm looking at them, like, you know, you don't know how to sell this. You need to know that like you Why don't you know how to do that. And so I don't know where I'm going with that other than I feel like I could do more I'm going with that to be the best coach for them. I want to be able to reflect for them how, and I'm getting better at this. And virtual teams are making this better reflecting back to people much more clearly how wide the gap is, like you as a leadership team do not know how to sell clear yet. Okay, how big a problem is that for you? Big problem? What are you going to do to figure out how to sell? And? And is it a marketing problem, and if you've been pretending it's a marketing problem is really a selling problem, or vice versa. So I know that from my track record, I'm very comfortable with teams that have a proven track record who want to be excellent. That's pretty, that's fun work. And I love working with teams, it's easier than working with a team who is had people in functions for a long, long time, who haven't grown much in a long time. And they're comfortable with where they are, and they don't know how far off the mark they are. And so that's my responsibility to say, in a way that inspires them in the right ways. You're way off the mark.
1:18:29
Yeah, yeah. So in that vein, I think that we all have blind spots, I think that there are things that we do or don't do, that are causing a problem for our team. And it is the job of the coach in the room to help them see those blind spots. So I think that sometimes you have to be very direct and point them out and say, I think you're blind to this. I think there's this is going on, and you have to see it differently. And then ultimately, it's up to them whether they're willing to see it or not. I think that we're the mirror.
Mark 1:19:11
Well, so I realize an ingredient that people should know, that is a leadership team coach. That's what we're describing. So I mixed two different formats, individual coaching and leadership coaching. So most of this conversation, when you and I are talking about this is leadership team coaching facilitation and teaching the US tools. That is a dynamic of between three and seven people in the room that we're working with very different than individual coaching. So individual coaching, I don't have that problem at all, like individual coaching is very straightforward because the person showing up it's not straightforward. I mean, there's lots of experience that goes into it. But in terms of the complexity, it's one individual who wants help one person is trying to help them and I understand that dynamic very well. When when you have three to seven people in the room, and you can't get the team to come to life. There's one one ingredient that really can upset them all. And that is the fearless leader of the client team, if they're not willing to be open and honest there if they're not willing to create a space for that, because it's not individual coaching at that point, there's somebody in the room who is part of the factor. So if your team is stuck, and it's your team, and you're the fearless leader, you got to look at yourself. And if you need coaching, to get past your own patterns that are not serving you, if you're not seeing your own blind spots, you will never create a space for the rest of the team to do the same. You cannot top grade from the bottom up, you have to top grade from the top down. That's just it's I've tried to do it the other way doesn't work. What do you tell a team that you work with where you see the weakest weakest link is the fearless leader.
1:20:54
I think you have to call that out. But you do it privately. I've had that conversation with someone that I worked with, not that I was leading. And it's a difficult conversation, you don't do it in front of the team. You have that conversation individually with that person, in my experience. And you are very open and honest with them and help them to see that they're the issue. And ask them what again, be the question, what are you going to do get out to get out of your own way, so that your team can move forward because you're the one that's holding them back.
Mark 1:21:31
So we're kind of running up against our time here in a minute. So I want to end on that subject. And so thinking specifically about that leader, the fearless leader, whatever that is, and I use that term on purpose to allow some imagination as to who that might be, that could be the owner, the CEO, the visionary, but sort of who we look to in the room is that one person that sort of sets the pace for everybody else. What's your passionate plea to that fearless leader in this time moving forward?
1:22:04
My passionate plea to that leader is desire to be better desire to do this the best way that you can. And if you can't get there on your own, reach outside of yourself, and be willing and open to becoming better through somebody else's help through somebody else's help.
1:22:29
Yes.
Mark 1:22:30
So that kind of bookends our conversation. We're talking about how it was to get get ourselves unstuck. Leaning on other people asking for help. asking for advice could be coaches. Clearly that's not that's not, not a shocker. But my personal experiences has been subject matter experts. People who can can verbalize with we can learn from figuring out how to be not the smartest person in the room, several podcasts theme is, if you want to be the best, you've got to find a place to be the worst. You've got to go hang out in rooms where people have more information than you and you can learn from you are the limit to your own growth personally, as a leader and for your company, you owe it to your team to be the best you possibly can. And if you're stuck. It's you. Yep, it's you. Well, Lisa, thanks so much. This has been a wonderful conversation. I appreciate where we went. Did we talk about anything you expected us to talk about? Of course not. I'm glad I don't disappoint in that regard that we go someplace. I really, really appreciate this. And I think it's gonna be really helpful for people. If somebody out there wants to find you, how do they do that?
1:23:49
They can go to my website, which is W VE biz coach calm. And all my informations there how to contact me is all there.
Mark 1:23:58
Awesome. has been wonderful. Thank you for the conversation. I look forward to seeing you in our world. We share it we have a very common community we hang out in and it's been it's been great. So for listeners. We'll see you next time. We've got more great guests booked out I've got a big backlog of more great guests and and please check out the back catalogue. We've got this great interview. We've got Cameron Herold, we've got Jeff Hoffman and a host of other folks in the recent recordings, that I think you'll find it super valuable now and into the future. But that's it for today. Don't forget to subscribe. Please share this if you found this valuable. share this with your friends get this in the hands of people who can use this information and get themselves unstuck. The whole idea is so you and the people in your world can feel more in control of their life and especially by using these tools to feel more in control of their business. And that is our mission. Thanks so much. We'll see you next time.
VO 1:24:57
This is you're doing it wrong. with Mark hinders and Leary for more episodes and to subscribe, go to lily.cc