Jeremy Jenson is the Founder & CEO of Encore Search Partners, a 25-person Executive Search firm here in Houston, TX. They’re primarily focused on headhunting professional and technical talent with $100k salaries and above. In only 6 years, they’ve grown to be the 2nd largest privately-held executive search firm headquartered in Houston, and they’ve been recognized as the fastest-growing search firm in Texas, two years in a row.
In today's episode, I sit down with my headhunter friend Jeremy to discuss how companies are switching to online job interviews amidst the COVID19 crisis and how this could be a good thing for the industry. Jeremy also gives us some great insights on how to find people who truly care about the company's vision and success, and how to be the kind of leader that attracts these types of employees.
8:11 - Virtual job interviews give you more visibility into a candidate's true character
11:53 - Advice for employers (and employees) who are new to online/virtual job interviews
14:49 - The key to growing your business is delegating tasks to the best people for the job
18:40 - Jeremy finding his authentic self
20:52 - Surrounding yourself with people who accept you as you are
24:22 - It's not just about being yourself, but figuring out your best self as a leader
30:29 - Jeremy talks about the things that held him back from being his best self
39:04 - Employees appreciate you when you take their negative feedback and they see that you are committed to becoming your best self
41:40 - How to keep the flow of information as your company grows larger
47:42 - Accountability - if more than one person owns it, nobody owns it
49:02 - Jeremy talks about how he handled the COVID lockdown
54:34 - Companies that decide to wait out the COVID pandemic are missing out on opportunities
56:07 - Jeremy attributes his success to his honesty towards his employees during dark times
59:05 - If you want to generate business, be passionate about the product or service you provide.
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
JEREMY JENSON:
www.linkedin.com/in/jeremyjenson
www.encoresearch.com
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool.
Mark 00:01
We are live! This is You're Doing it Wrong with Mark Henderson Leary and my name is Mark. And I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help people feel more in control of their business and part of how I do that is by letting them listen in on a conversation between two fanatical, passionate people who are passionate about the entrepreneurial world and give you an opportunity to listen to the details of the conversation. So you can figure out what you might not be doing right or one way that you could do something different that allows you to break through the ceiling that you're struggling with, and allows you to really get control of your business and your life.
Mark 00:45
And so today I'm here with Jeremy, and Jeremy is the CEO of Encore Search Partners, which is a fast growing executive search firm so fast here in Houston. They've been the second largest private firm. They got to that size and under six years and has been one of the fastest growing firms in Houston two years in a row, recognized by the Houston Business Journal. More importantly, he's an outrageous character, a social networking Rockstar, a friend to all who know him and a good friend of mine, and I'm really happy to have Jeremy Jenson here today. How are you doing? This is the time of COVID-19.
Jeremy 01:22
You know, I'm doing well. And honestly, I think one of the big reasons why I can say that is Trump came through with that PPP money last week and so when that hits the deposit, you can certainly start sleeping through the night and rest assure that you're not going to have to let go of your entire team just because all of your clients pulled all of their contracts, right? So -
Mark 01:46
So did that happen? Did all your clients pull your contracts?
Jeremy 01:48
Well, fortunately, we're pretty diversified, meaning we recruit for oil and gas industry, industrial, wealth management firms, and law firms. I would say about 80% of our clients pulled back, specifically in oil and gas, industrial and legal, but right now -
Mark 02:05
So 80% of your clients pulled back in some way
Jeremy 02:07
In some way yeah, absolutely. And so while we were forecasting, probably an 80% revenue hit. Luckily, the decisions that I made back in 2016 really paid off to where we're probably only going to experience maybe a 20% hit to revenue through this Coronavirus pandemic.
Mark 02:24
So 2016 was not yesterday, that was some time ago. What did you do then that helps you now?
Jeremy 02:29
Um, so I brought in an EOS integrator. He's now the president of my company and whenever we took a look at the business, we realized that we were too heavily focused in one specific practice area and so we leveraged our proprietary process, diversified into different markets and fortunately, a business unit that didn't even exist prior to 2017 is now our largest business unit. That is where we recruit individuals in the wealth management space.
Mark 03:04
Recruit individuals in the wealth management, okay. So that was just one of your segments. And it turns out to be a big part.
Jeremy 03:09
It's a big part now. Absolutely, absolutely.
Mark 03:12
Like, right this minute?
Jeremy 03:13
Right at this minute. You know, this morning we sent out a $73,000 invoice because there was a financial advisor in Chicago, that somebody was just salivating to get on the team. They wanted him so bad, even though they couldn't shake his hand and invite him into the office and have him meet all the employees they were willing to take that risk, juggle the dice and onboard this individual remotely.
Mark 03:38
That's - Isn't that incredible? I mean, it's a lot of money. It's a risky feeling time, and there's less process than there used to. They're outside of their comfort zone - everybody is. What do you attribute that to them? I mean, that's people buying with confidence, right?
Jeremy 03:54
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's attributed to maybe these last 30 days. Through the mandatory quarantine we're now finding that you know, with the access of information to find on individuals online, whether it's through background checks, reference checks, pulling broker checks and things of that nature, you can pretty much get an accurate snapshot on whether or not they're a good person, you know, financially right? Or whether they provide honest and ethical services to their clients. And now that we have become so accustomed to doing these video interviews and video happy hours and video, birthday parties, and even video weddings.
Mark 04:37
Have you been to a video wedding?
Jeremy 04:39
Yeah, I've seen it. I saw on ABC News last week.
Mark 04:42
But you haven't gotten - nobody you knows has -
Jeremy 04:45
No, I haven't attended one. But the point that I'm making is, I think individuals are becoming increasingly more comfortable with developing and going deep in developing relationships with individuals through video now. And that's something that didn't even exist, you know, prior to this Coronavirus pandemic and so you know, of course they're gonna do their due diligence with regards to reference checking and making sure that the clients are going to come with this individual but whenever it comes to getting to know the person on a personal level and determining whether there's chemistry with that person, we're cracking beers over video interviews now you know and it truly -
Mark 05:25
You are. You are seeing it - your firm is actually, your your people are drinking on camera with your clients, prospects. Is that - I mean, let's keep it real man.
05:36
Absolutely. You know, it's something that we didn't necessarily know that we needed to have in the handbook. But hey, you know, if a little glass of Tito's is gonna take the edge off, right, whenever your kid is screaming two doors down, then hey, we support it right? but -
Mark 05:53
Well it's funny, I mean, alcohol seems to be an essential service. Like you know, you got to keep the cars running. You got to keep alcohol flowing in terms, we got to get the trucks on the road and supply chain alive and people need to be able to be drinking. And you can get drinks through your delivery to go orders as a part of an emergency measure. And now you're saying alcohol shows up in the workforce. And I'm kind of making a joke out of that. But is there some truth that - is there some wisdom in that pattern we just described and -
Jeremy 06:21
No, there's absolute wisdom, you know, and I was married for nine and a half years. And I'll tell you if alcohol would not have been, you know, in the picture from 8pm to midnight, three nights a week. I don't necessarily know if I would have made it as long and so, you know, when you're plugged into a controlled environment, where it's out of control, right? And chaotic, where you may have three kids a wife, clients banging down your door, your boss saying, hey, why aren't you hitting your KPIs? You got to have some type of coping mechanism to get you through the day, right? And at the end of the day, I'm not encouraging getting drunk. What I'm encouraging is, hey, everybody, if you're open to it, there's no harm in taking the edge off. I guess that's -
Mark 07:06
Hmmm interesting. So I feel like I've kind of opened Pandora's box now because I definitely have a personal aversion to alcohol as medication, right? I think it's just a tragic combination of, I see people use it all the time: I just need a drink. And my personal experience with that has not been good. So I definitely personally do not encourage it is as any sort of medication, but I do feel like what you said there - we are breaking down some barriers. And that's sort of the theme, maybe. That's the theme I'll take from this - the disruption of patterns. It's a pattern interrupt if you enjoy your takeout and on a different level, if the takeout shows up with beer in it, that's a different takeout experience. Your family experience is different. Your interview experience is different. And we're going to see something a little less prepackaged, maybe? Do you see more truth in people? When people sort of like: hey, it's a different world, you know, and you know, open up the beer and like, I gotta be real, you know, I don't want to move to Chicago, or I've been so what do you -
Jeremy 08:10
Well to get off the alcohol topic, I think, you know, there is absolute visibility into somebody's you know, true character and personal life whenever you're facilitating a video interview with him. You know, I'll give you an example. I did a video interview with a candidate that you know, had a massive deer head on his wall in his office, right? And that spawned an organic conversation, talk about his passion for hunting and things of that nature, right? And so, I think that with video interviews, you're sort of letting people in to see the real you inside of your, you know, primary environment where you can control what the surroundings are, right? I'm looking at you right now and in your man cave and you've got a guitar, you've got golf clubs but more importantly, I see hundreds of books. You've got a massive library there as well. And so that could lend a little bit more organic conversation into what it is that you value. And what it is that you'd like to spend your leisure time doing, right? And so those are the things that may not necessarily come up in an initial prospect meeting or an initial candidate interview, to where if I have insight into that it can really open up and motivate somebody to be a little bit more transparent.
Mark 09:29
So it's interesting, I think part of this is, if there's a traditional interview process, it can be very staged, right? Because we know step one, step two, step three. Wear the suit, wear the tie, this is the right color. You know, don't drink we know we're not doing that. But now it's a world like, I don't know. You can do whatever, you can drink. You can you can wear a T shirt, maybe you can see your house. It sounds like it's a combination of changing expectations, relaxed expectations and so much less scripted. It's just, it would be impossible to try to stage every piece of this. Like I could set up my whole room. Am I gonna figure out my mic situation and headphones for the interview? It's like, there's so many variables to just like, well, there's just gonna see the real me. Becuase I don't have time to fix everything that's gonna be a little bit of rough around the edges. Do you think this is sustainable? Is this just gonna continue or people going to figure it out?
Jeremy 10:21
So you're talking about individuals working from home and being productive working from home?
Mark 10:26
No, great question. I don't think I was clear at all. I'm thinking like that,it seems like we can interview better now. Seems like we can interview better now. Well, maybe it's too bad. Can we interview better now?
Jeremy 10:38
We can absolutely interview better now. And truth be told, I think one of the directions that corporate HR is going is they're making more data driven decisions, right? By doing, facilitating testing and two personality tests aptitude tests, and gathering those insights and making actionable decisions based on what the data says right? Not necessarily just hiring the person that interviews the best. Right. And so I think that's the way that things have operated for the last 200 years is do I have chemistry with this person? Do I seemingly trust this person? And would I grab a beer with him after work, right? I think there's a lot of employers that kind of base their decision making - final decisions on those three variables. And at the end of the day, because we're becoming a little bit more technology focused, employers are able to make actionable decisions based on what the actual data says.
Jeremy 10:38
Well, do you have any advice for people? Right now, to maximize this? If people are interviewing right now, they're a little uncomfortable. And I think we're kind of saying like, hey, get comfortable. This is awesome. For both sides. How do you maximize it?
Jeremy 11:53
Yeah. So you asked, do I have any advice for people that are maybe interviewing right now -
Mark 11:59
- for both sides. I was actually thinking of the employer who's got to hire well, because that's who I spend most of my time with. And they're they're sort of trying to figure out how to hire well right now in a different time. But both sides, because people who do follow this podcast are - some of them are out of work, and some are looking for the next opportunity. So both sides.
Jeremy 12:17
Yeah, so I'll talk about the candidates first, right? And so, you know, you've heard in real estate, it's a buyer's market or it's a seller's market, right? And, you know, what will kind of correlate those two is the buyers are the candidates, right? That are looking for a job, right? Just like a buyer's looking for a house. And the seller is the one that actually has the asset and saying, hey, I've got this for sale, do you want to come buy it, right? And so right now, what we've seen over the last 60 days is that the market has shifted. It's specifically here in Houston, Texas, with the price of oil literally going from $60 a barrel to negative, I think right now it's in the teens. But, you know, with all of the layoffs that have already occurred in Houston, whether it's hospitality, retail, energy, manufacturing, industrial, this market has quickly shifted from being a buyer's market to a seller's market. And so jobs are fewer and farther between, candidates that are looking for a job or obviously, you know, a plenty right now.
Jeremy 13:28
And so advice to people that are looking for a job opportunity, the biggest word of advice I would give you is be open to jumping through hoops. So let's jump into some fun commentary. I don't want to talk about hiring, I don't want to talk about - let's talk about something related to, you know, how to motivate and inspire your employees or how to attract employees or, you know, are you attracting the right ones or whether it's more cost effective to build versus buy? I mean, I think there's a lot more exciting things that we could talk about. Other than just new norm and what's gonna happen with individuals that are looking for a job, right?
Mark 14:07
Like, what?
Jeremy 14:08
I don't know. I mean, where's the deal? Here's the deal, man. I know that because I brought in a vice president that was self motivated. He had an actual playbook on how to structure, build, and scale a company. I know that by bringing that individual in, I've been able to 5x my business in three and a half years, and all I really needed to do was just put, you know, $1 in in order to get $2 out. There aren't a ton of layers of complexity to building and scaling a business. And that's just really been my experience. And I'll hear other individuals that say Jeremy, how the hell do you do it? And the answer simple. The answer is simple: I was lazy. I didn't want to do the marketing so I hired a marketing professional to do it. I didn't want to make cold calls to prospects so I hired somebody to do it. I didn't want to manage KPIs so I hired someone to do it. I don't want to listen to call recordings and provide real time coaching to our people. So I hired someone to do it. The way that I grew my business was because I didn't do shit, but hire great people to do this stuff for me.
Mark 15:34
Well, okay, so I want to slow that down because you said a lot. And I think the essence of this podcast is somebody hears that and they go, yeah, that worked for him. How do I do it? And so I want to stop at each sort of punctuated point, the first thing you know, that you said, it wasn't that hard. It's not that much to growing it. I worked a lot of businesses and a lot of them work very, very hard, even the really good ones. So that might be a reason to disbelieve. But this ended with well, in the beginning was as easy, the middle was I'm lazy so I delegated everything. And the last part of that was just just hire the right people I think, was kind of how I heard that. And so it's not easy, I don't think - I think it's total bullshit. I think it might be simple, or they might be simple, but it's not easy. I think that I have seen a pattern through 20 years where people - individuals understand their limitations and have a narrow lane where they know they're awesome. And they don't try to do anything outside of that - seemed to have an easier time growing businesses. Do you see that pattern? Like even like technical business, oh, it's an IT services business. I don't know anything about technology and like, well, how did you become so large? Well, I just marketed and sold and I had tech people do the work, and that works for them. But then you also have, I guess, the advantage like when I have billionaires onn the show and they said, oh you gotta help and I gotta pull that apart right? You're a billionaire. You can help it a different way than a million dollar a $2 million, even a 10-15 million dollar business can do. So we got to pull that apart. You hire - you're a hiring guy. Hiring is your thing. So what's your secret? How did you hire your second in command, your most strategic people? What makes it so damn easy for you? What makes it so damn easy for you?
Jeremy 17:25
Well, first of all right, you have to be open, honest and transparent. You know, if people are meeting with you, and they don't wholeheartedly feel that you're telling the truth that you're somebody that they can trust and be friends with and want to work for, then that opportunity's not ever going to present itself. And so one of the things that I personally did is I was just myself at networking events, and I was just myself on social media. And you know, building a brand that people wanted to follow and engage with. It wasn't a scenario where I was always trying to pitch the service that my company provided.
Mark 18:00
Okay being yourself, that's a buzzword right? I believe in it and I'm not trying to like discount it. But I do think people glaze over a little bit now because there's a lot of very audacious personalities out there talking about being yourself. You got Gary Vee, you got Grant Cardone. You've got anybody who's got a big, bold, f bomb dropping personality. Those are the people - be yourself. And I think the audacity is cheap, attention grabbing. And if it's audacious, and you drop the F bomb, and it's authentic, that's actually rarer than somebody who just sort of says like, well, I'm gonna get the room's attention by saying I'm gonna drop the F bomb. How did you find authenticity and what is your authentic self?
Jeremy 18:47
You know, I don't know if I read a specific book or listened to a specific podcast -
Mark 18:52
I don't want the book. I want to know when you - where did you go wrong? Where did you go right? How did you - are you just a narcissist, and you never cared what anybody else thought or did you - and that's actually I don't want to call you a narcissist. But I wonder if there are when people really truly are born not caring what other people think, does it go better than the people who are very sensitive to people's reactions to them?
Jeremy 19:15
You know, it's funny that you say that because I think that I probably care what people think, more than 99% of the the rest of the population and so, I absolutely care about what other people think, right? But with that being said, you know, I don't necessarily know why I you know, became kind of uncensored and started to be my true authentic self at events, and maybe in videos or in social media. I mean, truth be told, I think it was probably related to, you know, going through marriage counseling with my ex-wife and coming to the realization that I wasn't ever going to be the person that she wanted me to be. In that all I was going to do was be myself, live my best life and that I valued my personality. I valued my time I valued my love, my attention, my friendship enough to where other people would would gravitate towards that if I was my true, authentic, organic self, that there were enough other people out there that wanted to be surrounded by that person. I don't know if that makes sense.
Mark 20:32
It does. And I don't want to put this in your own words, but maybe my own experience is sort of like, when you get tired of trying to figure it out. It's like, I could just get all that energy back if I just stopped trying anything, if I just let it flow out naturally. If I just say what's on my mind, instead of wondering what I should say, all the energy comes back. I tried to figure out what other people wanted, it didn't work. And so maybe I'll just stop all that shenanigans and let the people who are fine with me as I already am find me and this will make it easier for everybody.
Jeremy 21:04
Yeah, not necessarily just fine with you, but are motivated, inspired by that true organic self, right? I mean, when you talk about culture, and again, I'm not a culture person, right? I'm not an HR professional, right? I'm a headhunte,r it's probably a little bit closer to being you know, a stockbroker. You know, dialing for dollars and making it a numbers game but what I was going to say is you know, culture is defined by having everybody rowing the boat in the same direction right? And if if that means that the CEO is you know, Grant Cardone with his super aggressive and tell it like it is type persona, right? The person that's, you know, the mousy accountant sitting in the corner is probably not gonna like that culture. But when you surround Grant Cardone with individuals that share the same mission, vision and values and respect that persona. Now they can all row that boat in the same direction. Now, it may very well be in a completely different direction than the boat that, you know, Bill Gates was driving and the boat that Steve Jobs was driving or the boat that Tony Robbins is driving, but at the end of the day, they're going to put - they're gonna point it in the direction they want to go in, and they're going to sprint in that direction, because they're all speaking the same language. And they're all fired up about being on the same team.
Mark 22:28
So this ties together a hundred threads. I mean, almost every podcast recording since the beginning has talked about something about identity and self and the core values and culture and authenticity and finding ,discovering them and turning them up to 11. Do you find yourself 100%, unrestrained at all times? Or are there times when you got to dial it back? Do you adjust for your audience?
Jeremy 22:54
No, absolutely. You know, the biggest audience where I would say I find myself really being intentional about dialing it back and kind of thinking before I'm speaking, is really my own internal employees. And, you know, a lot of that is attributed to, you know, me kind of growing up early on in the organization and being somewhat of a perfectionist and a hothead. And, you know, hey, if you did it wrong, just let me do it, get out of my way. You know, it really wasn't until I brought in Scott Kelly at the time, who was my vice-president, who's now the president of the company, to where I definitively had somebody that was making sure that I was right - beating to the right drum and, and adhering to the core values and treating everybody with respect. And so I absolutely have to police myself in that regard. Because, you know, this isn't a, you know, an environment that's driven by a dictator, right? We recognize that our people are our most valuable asset and fortunately, I've got a president that does an amazing job at coaching and mentoring myself, and making sure that I don't deviate from, you know, the core values and in the direction that we've all agreed that we're going to row this boat.
Mark 24:16
So what I hear in that is something I've heard in a lot of other great leaders. That is, it's not just exactly about being yourself, that's part of it. It is figuring out your best self. And understanding that there is some intentionality about this that I am me, I cannot be not me. And there are things about me that I really am proud of, and I want to live into, which might mean two things and that is, that once we agree to the rules, I have to play by them too, even though I might not always want to, which is a kind of counterintuitive thing. It's like I wrote the rules around me and then somehow I can't even follow my own rules. Why is that? But I think that's true. Do you experience that? Like you write a rule like it's about you, and then suddenly it's hard to - so it's weird like, I want to be like this. I've always been like this. And then today, it's like, well, I don't want to be like that today. It's like, well, too bad. You have to do - you said, we do this and you got to live by your own rules, which then the second dimension that is growing into it, because as time goes on, you may raise the bar. Have you raised the bar for yourself?
Jeremy 25:22
You know, I think in many areas, I absolutely have risenthe bar for myself, but at the end of the day, I have enough self awareness to know that, you know, I'm so far from meeting my own expectations in certain areas to where I've got to be very intentional about working hard on becoming that best version of myself. And so, you know, we definitely set high bars, we definitely have raised, you know, bars where maybe the status quo was set a little bit too low. But I think one of the things that my leadership team prides ourselves on, is we've all got areas of opportunity to improve and that means you know, in business, in our relationships - physically, mentally, across the board.
Mark 26:08
Okay, so how does your leadership team hold you accountable and help you grow in that? I have to imagine that if you bring in the right - like you got Scott, who's your, we'll call them your integrator, your second in command, your President, all that to say your single key leader that you delegate the leadership team functions to, you know, that's really the big boss and the organization who reports to you. How does how does that interplay?
Jeremy 26:34
I think that the way that it interplays is creating a very open environment where we can be fully transparent with one another, you know, and if I tell, you know, Scott, my executive vice president Casey Knight, you know, the things that are keeping me up at night and the things that you know, the own internal demons that I'm fighting or whatever, whatever it is. You know, if I'm able to be transparent about it and I not only have my partners but my best friends help process those issues with me. And they have no ulterior motive, right? they want to see me achieve my own personal goals and they want to see me succeed in business as well. To where I would say that the key is to find that real close circle of folks where you can truly be your authentic self and and for lack of a better phrase, lift the skirt, right? Show them the good and the bad and have them be confident they can give you trusted advice. Now at the end of the day, the accountability falls on you, right? But it's one of those situations where I've created an environment with my leadership team and my EO small group, to where I can talk about things that are keeping me up at night. And those individuals that truly care can give me unbiased and unfiltered insight in order to help me make the best decision to go forward.
Mark 27:58
How did you create that? I think a lot of people want that and they go and they try to hire their second in command or their integrator and it doesn't work. How did you get there? Do you just get lucky on the first shot? Did you make some false starts?
Jeremy 28:10
You know, I think I got there in therapy, right? And, you know, I've gone to therapy three times in my life for, let's say, six to 10 sessions each time. So it's not a situation where, you know, I've gone through it, you know, for the last nine years, but, you know, and being vulnerable and being open and help, you know, professional help you process your own thoughts, and consolidate your own thoughts, in order to say, you know, hey, that light bulbs going off, I really didn't know that that was an area of exposure for me and I need to be intentional about filling that gap. And so -
Mark 28:46
So this is not small. So I - this is not what gets talked about all the time. So I want to really unpack this. This was personal relationship therapy? This was professional leadership therapy? What was this like?
Jeremy 28:57
Yeah, so you know, therapy, man. You know, therapy. I mean, I don't want to go into detail -
Mark 29:02
and sure. Individual therapists - you and a therapist trying to unpack your situation.
Jeremy 29:05
One on one. Well, you know, what it was really inspired by is, you know, here I was successful company, three beautiful young kids, massive house, pool, outdoor kitchen, half acre lot. I had everything right? The fancy exotic cars, the beautiful wife, and everyone would have pointed at me and said, man, that guy has made it. That guy is at the pinnacle of his life, and he's truly happy. And guess what? Each and every single day I was unhappy. And so I knew that I needed to go and unpack that and figure out why I wasn't happy. And, you know, I'm still working through a few things. But you know, I think that element of self awareness is really what helped me in recognizing the areas that I need to focus on and be intentional about improving because at the end of the day man, it's not always the top line. It's not always the bottomline. You know, sometimes it's, you know,hey, I got to care more about what my own internal people think about me because at the end of the day, I don't want, you know, a coup to be staged where one of my officers picks up 90% of my team and go creates a firm across the street, right? And I think being intentional about being the boss that you want to be, the husband that you want to be, the father that you want to be, all those things are intertwined. I absolutely believe that.
Mark 30:29
What do you think - looking back, how are you holding yourself back? How are you standing in your own way?
Jeremy 30:37
So the way - so that's a great question. And I don't think that anybody's ever asked me that before, but I know the answer. I was an arrogant prick that always knew that I was the smartest guy in the room. And it was an intimidating thought for me to be in a room with people that were on my level or maybe even potentially higher than my level. Does that make sense?
Mark 31:06
It makes perfect sense.
Jeremy 31:07
And so I think one of the massive turning points in my career - well, not even really career but in personal life, is whenever I joined the Entrepreneurs Organization. You know, I was a millionaire at 30 years old Mark. And I advertised it. I waved the fucking flag and said, I'm better than you, I'm smarter than you and you know, really a lot of it was spawned from my own insecurities growing up poor and having nothing and being jealous of my friends that had better cars and bigger houses. But when I joined the Entrepreneurs Organization, and was now sitting at a table, where individuals are making one $2 million a month, not just a year and having those individuals or having witnessed those individuals and the humility that they had and the willingness to help new members and give their time, which obviously is our most valuable asset. In seeing how those individuals treated others, that's what really motivated and inspired me to say, Hey, I'm not shit, I need to recognize what my strengths are, I need to focus on those, but at the end of the day, it's really the legacy and the relationships that create long term lasting remembrance. And just, you know, personal wealth. It's not all about the numbers in the bank account. It's about the way that you make people feel. If that makes sense.
Mark 32:44
Yeah. So in this moment. This is probably a period, probably a long period. I'm guessing that you look back at this as an epiphany and you can put a phrase to it. This is probably a period of weeks, months or maybe years that this transformation occurred. As you're sort of realizing, my old way isn't too useful, my new way is going to be different. How does your behavior start changing? What are the things you start to intentionally do to put your life in the direction you want it to be?
Jeremy 33:14
Yeah, so don't get me wrong. I mean, every single day that I go into the office, and I sit at my desk, I'm thinking how the hell am I going to make money today, right? And so, you know, that's still a pivotal focus, you know, at 36 years old for me in my career. But with that being said, I think the biggest thing that has changed is we've been able to attract individuals that weren't necessarily simply motivated with by what is the base salary and what's the commission potential. It's hiring people that you know, believe in, you know, the vision. They believe in the leadership team, they trust the leadership team. And at the end of the day, I know that I can trust them because, you know, they're putting their 110% into their role and implementing, creative, you know, problem solving, you know, abilities in order to diversify into areas that I couldn't even think of. And so, I guess the short answer is, by kind of changing my own mentality and giving other people the stage and giving them the recognition and the compensation, it's really bred an environment of having 25 entrepreneurs, not just one.
Mark 34:28
Okay, because that was the question is that, you know, how are you leading differently now? Is the result - a lot of people love to see the result. I mean, every EO event we've ever been to together and seeing other people on stage, we see the polish, we see the results, and it motivates us. And I think the missing part of the conversation is like, is the dark time. I mean, we even hear like, it was really tough. I had to pay, you know, payroll on my credit card or whatever, and I was down to zero dollars. I've heard that story a million times. That's not the hard stuff. I mean, it is but you don't choose it. If it comes and lands on you like a ton of bricks, and you got to either die or dig your way out. The really hard stuff is the optional stuff. I'm going to be a better leader today because I want to be. I want to get out of my way, I'm going to change my behavior, because and I'm willing and humbled to do that. And it sounds like the essence of that was to really get the spotlight was to really give away the spotlight and let other people take recognition, take ownership and start the conversations around, you know, how can you be better? How can I help you be better and put that in your own words. What did you see your transformation look like?
Jeremy 35:35
Yeah, absolutely. And so you'd made a comment earlier is how long did that take, right? The process started, you know, back in 2016, right? But with that being said, it really wasn't until, you know, maybe 17, 18, 19 it really started to evolve. And I think a lot of that was attributed throughout the process of doing confidential surveys inside of the organization. And me reading the feedback on those surveys. And here I was thinking that I was creating an environment where people were fairly paid. And, you know, recognized, but there was a consistent question on each and every one of the surveys, right? Or two questions: One of them was, do you feel like the management team treats you with respect, provide a commentary around that. And then the second question was, if you were to leave Encore Search today, what would be the reason why? And I would say, it was a very humbling experience to read that feedback. And for individuals to legitimately name me, right? Jeremy does, this Jeremy did this. I wish this would happen. And I would say that's really what the turning point was, where I was sitting in my office reading those confidential surveys where I didn't know who was sharing the feedback. But would literally start crying because I had no idea that my team felt this way here, I thought I was creating a very successful, profitable company that everybody wanted to work at. And it wasn't until I started to ask them for the actual dark stuff to where we could really start to plug those holes and work on scaling the business.
Mark 37:26
And so you got - sound that you got harsh feedback, like what were some things people said?
Jeremy 37:30
Oh, man, I don't want to get into it.
Mark 37:33
Man, yeah, you're not gonna go there with me.
Jeremy 37:36
You know, a leader should never - it doesn't matter if your employee lost you $14,000 or, you know, fell victim of a phishing scam. You should never berate or reprimand an employee in front of their co-workers, right? And that's something that I knew, you know, as as an 11 year old kid, right? It's no news, no news to you or no news to your audience, but, whenever you do things and you really don't even know that you're doing it, that becomes a problem, right? And that's whenever you rely on the individuals that you trust around you, that are pointing it out and coaching you through it.
Mark 38:19
So I think that point deserves extra attention. And that is, you don't know your own blind spots. And if you've hit the ceiling, in your personal leadership growth, your company's growth, you know, by definition, like the evidence is there, there's a black hole. How do we know a black hole because things keep disappearing into the black hole that we haven't seen a black hole in outer space, but we know they're there, why? Because things are happening. The company's at a ceiling, my leadership's at a ceiling, there's a black hole, it's our blind spot. And the trick is, how do you get into it? And then, once you can see in it, did you stare into the eyes of Medusa and are you paralyzed? Or are you reacting to it?
Jeremy 39:04
Yeah. So what we do, and what we did was, you know, we have quarterly town halls where we talk about rights, we'll call it the State of the Union, where we bring everybody off site, everyone in the company. And it's about a two and a half hour presentation, PowerPoint. And, you know, one of the things that I did was I read the negative feedback out loud to my entire team.
Mark 39:30
How hard was that?
Jeremy 39:31
Oh, man, I mean, there were definitely some waterworks, I'll tell you that. And then there was a commitment. There was a commitment to fix it, right? A verbal contract that I made to my group, to say, I hear you, and I'm going to do something about it, right? And so that's one of the things that's really helped our organization with regards to creating stickiness with our employees or loyalty, and really just promoting that kind of open door policy where they can come in and voice any types of concerns or foreseeable roadblocks instead of feeling like, you know, it's a dictatorship and all I'm here is just a cog in the wheel to, you know, to make money for the organization. And so, you know, really, that was a big turning point inside of our company specifically was, whenever our employees, whether they've been been with us for five years or five weeks, you know, that they saw that we're committed to becoming better versions of ourselves. That's when our own people started to be excited about working for Encore Search. It became not just a job, but a family and a career.
Mark 40:40
So, I mean, everything you're saying is so beautiful, and I appreciate it. One of the things that I see in growing companies is that whatever you do to get you here, it tends to get harder to keep doing that if the success is coming, ironically, right? You think when success comes you're gonna have more resources and less risk, but as the company grow, you have more people. And as you have more people, you have more conversations. And as you have more conversations, you have more reason to be - opportunities to miscommunicate, you've got more managers and everything gets harder. How do you, now that you've got this leadership team in place, as you're growing, keep the lens on the blind spot and allow that free flow of information of the most critical, harsh bad news and delegate and empower and get the leadership team to do their part without you having to run around being the sole leader doing everything.
Jeremy 41:33
So there were a few parts of that question. Can you simplify it for me for just a second?
Mark 41:38
Yeah. How do you keep up - with more people and more leaders involved, how do you keep that flow of information?
Jeremy 41:45
Yeah, so I'll say we're really trying to figure that out. You know, my president has gotten to the point where, you know, one-on-ones, you know, take up 25 hours of his 40-hour work week and maybe they're not on the calendar for 25 hours, but that's really what it kind of evolves into. And so one of the things that we recently did was we created an extra layer of middle management. We hired a training and operations manager to kind of take a lot off of his plate, that way I could delegate more towards him. You know, another thing that I personally did was I committed to, you know, spending a lot of time out of the office with my leadership team, where we could still kind of solidify those personal relationships, and that stickiness, but more importantly, you know, potentially have another four to five hours a week where we can talk off script, and you know, about the business and the health of the business and just maybe go a little bit deeper in those conversations where maybe we wouldn't have had the time to do that within the standard 40-hour work week.
Mark 42:55
So with more middle management, more leaders, do you get feedback or are there problems with people who used to talk to you directly, feeling like they can't talk to you directly anymore?
Jeremy 43:05
No, I mean, we're small enough at 25 employees to where, you know, I'm always gonna have the open door, Scott's always gonna have the open door. You know, I haven't, you know, grown the business to 50 or 75 employees where, I think that that opportunity would not be there, right? And so I would say that at our size, it really hasn't presented itself yet. And at the end of the day, our middle managers are really lieutenants that are kind of implementing a lot of the strategic decisions that are made at the sea level, and they're really more doing the tactical behind it, right? And so, whenever it comes to being that confidant or that sounding board for individuals on the frontline, that's still coming to myself and to my president.
Mark 43:54
So okay, so how does that information flow to you without bypassing leadership? I mean, walk me through how information flows to you. And in keep in - so other leadership stays in the know as well.
Jeremy 44:07
Yeah. So we've got a published accountability chart, right? where individuals know where you go with specific issues or concerns, whether it be personnel issues, or technology issues or HR issues, right? And so, I mean, I think it's clearly defined within our four walls at the office on where you go with what specific challenges. But for the most part, you know, there really is only one medium that's directly coming to me. And again, that's my integrator, right? So he's the filter that's coming in and saying, hey, here's the problem. Here's my proposal with regards to a solution. What do you want to do? What is your take, right? And so, that's been kind of our process. And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I probably agree with him 90% of the time, provide a little bit different perspective 10% of the time, and, you know, he feels that I do a great job of hearing out, you know, his solutions. And as I mentioned 90% of the time, we're implementing, you know, what his thoughts are, his solutions, but at the end of the day, most of the big decisions, whether it's, you know, putting people on performance improvement plans or terminating individuals or even hiring individuals, those are made by committee at our organization.
Mark 45:28
Committee. That sounds bureaucratic. Tell me about that.
Jeremy 45:32
Um, no, I mean, it's just, you know, I think that, you know, everybody needs to kind of be on the same page in order to give individuals a fair shot. And so, you know, we give the middle managers, the C level executives and opportunity have to interview all potential new hires, even if it's in different business units, because, you know, I feel like, you know, we do need to take everybody's opinions into account and, you know, I may value one thing as a strength, but an individual that may work with that person each and every day may view it as a weakness and I need to be, I need to create an environment where we can be transparent around foreseeable bottlenecks before we hire individuals.
Mark 46:14
So how does consensus and veto power fit into this committee structure?
Jeremy 46:18
Um, you know, it's really not clearly defined, right? And everybody has a voice. But there's no specific point system or hierarchy where we say, hey, well, if Jeremy says yes, and Blair says no, then it's a no hire, right? And so -
Mark 46:35
So how do you prevent deadlock? How do you make decisions without getting stuck?
Jeremy 46:38
Yeah, I think it's mutual respect. You know, it's really listening to the feedback from your peers, and digesting that and giving them a stage where they can voice their concerns or voice an opportunity to fight for a specific person, right? And so, that's what I'll say - it's mutual respect.
Mark 46:59
So I know you guys run on EOS and in EOS the accountability chart would have a very clear, accountable hiring manager like this person is accountable to this manager. Does that manager get the ultimate decision? Or do they get overridden or - because I'm hearing you say that this is not bureaucratic, it works just great. But the way you're describing it sounds like if I told people to do it, it would be a disaster. So I want to kind of pull it apart. So if somebody does listen and implement this, they don't get themselves stuck with indecision.
Jeremy 47:27
Correct.
Mark 47:27
Does the hiring manager have an outsized vote? Do they listen and then make the call or how do you prevent people from getting stuck?
Jeremy 47:34
Yes, definitely. They listen and then make the call. The specific hiring manager has the vote, absolutely.
Mark 47:42
Okay, that was the key piece that I needed to land because if more than one person owns it, nobody owns it. And we just get locked in indecision. And in this empowerment concept. There's a leader on the accountability chart, one name one job, gives them the power, give them the right to succeed and the right to fail. If you don't do that, you are going to end up doing their job for them. What scares you right now?
Jeremy 48:09
Hmm, that's a tough question. I would say that I'm not an individual that tosses and turns at night, because things scare me. I've always been the type of guy that would run in the face of adversity. I'm a quick thinker. I'm a problem solver. And I make do. right? You know, my favorite TV show as a kid was the show MacGyver. Not sure if you know it, right?
Mark 48:36
Oh, yeah,
Jeremy 48:37
you know, if you said what scares me? Hmmm... I don't know. I mean, I would say that I'm not really scared of anything right now.
Mark 48:51
Is there a time you can think of in the last few years where you were afraid where you, you know?
Jeremy 48:57
You know, I really can't think of any time that I was afraid. Yeah.
Mark 49:02
When the COVID lockdown started coming, you were like, no problem. Did the uncertainty hit you in any way?
Jeremy 49:09
No, absolutely not. You know, because of the way that our organization is structured to where people are so KPI driven, we knew that we could give them an IP phone and literally give, give them their laptops and dual monitors at home, to where they would have full scale capabilities in order to do their job from home. And, you know, we made it very clear that there was a zero tolerance with regards to production. And, you know, fortunately, we haven't had to do any reductions in force since people had started to go work from home because people are hitting their KPIs. And so, I knew that our team was equipped with the right training and tools in order to be successful. You know, with that being said, there was a time where I was scared and it feels like so long agos - over five years ago. And if you want to talk about something from back then I can definitely give you some insight because I would imagine -
Mark 50:10
Yes I do.
Jeremy 50:10
- I would imagine some of your listeners have been faced with the same thing. So, back in late 2014, oil and gas plummeted from $108 a barrel, down to about 40 in about a 45-day span, right? And so, you know, there were deals on the board that I had a 95% accepted offers, start dates, and companies were pulling the offer saying, hey, we literally can't onboard anybody. We are in a hiring freeze from HR can't hire anybody. Better yet use external agencies. And so at the time, I had probably a7-person firm and and we were consistently doing about $100,000, $220,000 a month in revenue and that all went to zero. You, know December was small. January was zero and when your fixed expenses are, you know, $60,000 a month and revenue's zero that's a really tough punch in the gut to take, right? You know I was faced with the decision of, do I fire everybody, weather the storm, live off of the money that I've made the last few years, right? and just wait it out. That was one option. Second option was, do I call it quits, shut down the company, take a full-time w-2 job, which I did flirt with an organization and they made me an offer and I politely declined but I needed a contingency plan. Or number three do what I did - change the name of the company, tweak the business model, doubled down, actually hired staff doubled down, diversified nationwide, invested more money, and fortunately came out stronger and bigger on the other end of this deal. So I was super scared at that time because I was in a position where I was fortunate enough to have a spouse that was a six figure earner. And she was expecting our, I guess it would be our second child now. And she was informed by her employer that she was going to be laid off. And I think that's probably what contributed the biggest element of fear was everything that was in my control, I knew I would figure it out - I always do. I'm the serial procrastinator that you know, woke up at 3am the day of the tests and started studying 4 hours before the actual test. I didn't even do it the night before. But I always knew I would figure it out. But the point that I'm making is, whenever that outside of my control, that opportunity presented itself, I would say I was scared that day, whenever she informed me that she was getting laid off. Now, fortunately, people in other departments whenever they heard that she was getting laid off, started to create dialogue internally saying, well, I have this open position, can we just transfer her here? And so once it started to be publicized that she was getting laid off, she actually had three opportunities to interview internally for and her company kept her on, fortunately.
Mark 51:22
Okay. Well, I can imagine a lot of people relating to that. And one thing I want to point out, you said he changed the name of the company. That wasn't because you were trying to hide the past of the company. It was because you were trying to rebrand into this new business, right?
Jeremy 53:38
Right. Absolutely.
Mark 53:40
Well, we changed the name of the company, we scooted across town. We locked the doors.
Mark 53:59
There wasn't it at all. So okay, so you pivoted. You thought, well, the old model isn't working. There is a new model. I can see you, so you had vision about the future?
Jeremy 54:08
Absolutely. We made very, very quick decisions and executed on them quickly. I think that was the key to us surviving is we didn't, we didn't wait 60 days to look at the data and say, hey, you know, we're down revenue. We're burning this, we need to look at doing layoffs. No, we saw, you know, what the next 90 to 180 days was gonna look like and we made decisions very, very quickly.
Mark 54:34
Yeah, I am concerned about companies that say they're just going to sort of wait it out. I think that there's a lot of opportunity to miss, a lot of engagement that you are missing out on, a lot of opportunity to help people, a lot of things you can learn, a lot of investments you can make now at a cost that you can't compete with, you know. Like if you're - you're going to spend this money in time, if you're not being productive now, and if you've got to go spend money and time again in 60 days that you could have done in the first 60 days, well, you're going to be doubling your expenses, and you're going to be twice behind your competition.
Jeremy 55:06
Absolutely, wholeheartedly agree.
Mark 55:09
I get that it's hard though. A lot of people sort of feel like they don't know what to do. They're busy or overwhelmed by uncertainty. And we've talked about this on with several guests that it's not always obvious what the pivot looks like. It's not always obvious how to help somebody, your company, your client, the world, and sometimes it takes a couple of tries, a couple of many, many conversations to figure out what people need to do. So I encourage entrepreneurs who are stuck and they feel like they're a long way from revenue or if it had a huge fall off or if their industry is going to be in a total transformation. That it does require some patience. And I bet you, back to that time. I mean, this was probably, I don't know, even if you lit a little light switch wake up in the morning, like Monday morning you wake up, you're like, you know what? I'm all in. It's going to be ESP, we got a new name, we're doing this. It wasn't two days later, it was successful. It was a lot of iteration for a long time, you had to have the dream and you had to fight for it just like you were starting your very first business.
Jeremy 56:06
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now fortunately, I already had a team that I knew and trust around me, right? Ones that knew that they could trust me because I was being transparent throughout the process, and letting them know where I was, talking to potential employers for myself, and the fact that my spouse was being laid off, right? And so they valued that air of transparency, so they could make decisions on their end for their families. That's right. And so I would say that was really why we were successful whenever we rebranded and doubled down, is because I took care of the people and was honest with the people during the dark times. During the times of uncertainty. I didn't hide the balance sheet, right? I didn't tell them that things are great. And then I was you know, making decisions about potentially doing layoffs behind closed doors. And so they trusted me, and believed in what we were doing at the other end of the tunnel.
Mark 57:05
So that's a theme in all the great leadership conversations I've had. Got to tell the truth, especially if it's brutally bad. We got to really build trust through that honesty. But you also said something I want to highlight again, is that a lot of people feel the revenue's gone or the opportunity feels uncertain. And so there's a feeling of scarcity. And that's fair. There may be some brutal facts, brutal honesty you need to come to bear with, but if you have a team, if you have assets, experience, people who you know, that's a huge asset. I mean, we just talked about building a leadership team, and how hard that can be for companies to find their second in command and their real leadership team. People try it for a long, long time to get that. And so if you have a team and you know what they can do, then you've got a big asset that you could redeploy fast and get on the ground, you know, half the equations there. All you might have to do is market and sell, which was a lot. But it's - you have a lot and don't squander that opportunity and maybe find some ways to use part of it or pare it down or work a negotiated deal out. If you're if you're laying off half your staff, you know, which half are you keeping and how can you be creative with the resources you have? I think that's a really important upside to take advantage of. And that's what you did.
Jeremy 58:21
Absolutely.
Mark 58:25
So right now, you were just one of several great entrepreneurs, great leaders, I talked to who just, through the conversation, you know, I end up feeling more fired up than when the conversation starts. And that's what I want to be contagious with all the people who listen to this. What is your passionate plea for entrepreneurs right now?
Jeremy 58:48
So one of the biggest things that burns me is whenever there are producers, salespeople, right? or consultants that say that cold calling is dead. My passionate plea to entrepreneurs is, if you want to generate business, number one, you have to be wholeheartedly passionate about the product or service that you provide, and how it's gonna solve a problem for your customer base or make them money. But number two, don't be afraid to pick up the phone and call the people to spread the word on why your product or service is great. I'll tell you guys, as a business owner, I sit at my desk probably 90% of the workday, maybe 80%. And my phone literally rings one, maybe two times a day. And it's usually outsourced to a cold calling service in India or the Philippines. And so whenever people call me at my desk I answer and, you know, I grew up as an entrepreneur in sales. And so I respect salespeople. And so if your call target is into the entrepreneurial, right? C level executive, right? Whether it's the CEO or the Chief Revenue Officer or the VP of sales, those guys don't hate being cold called. Give them your best pitch. So that's my passionate plea. Don't listen to the white noise of saying that cold calling doesn't work, right? Pick up the phone and sell your product or service. And there are so many talented people out there that are not in business today, right? There are bartenders or servers, or assistant managers at Mattress Firm, or, you know, the general manager of a Chipotle. And these folks are making 30, 35, 40 thousand dollars. They're itching to get into a corporate environment where they can have uncapped earning potential. And I'll tell you, we hire those people. We train them, we give them a shot. And I'm happy to say that there are several of them on our team that are now consistently making six figures because they weren't afraid to pick up the phone.
Mark 61:09
Pick up the phone. Pick up the phone. I mean, it's so important, I experienced that. I love that advice. I think that it couldn't be more timely. I think now is the time to pick up the phone. If people answer the phone, you know where they are, they're at home. You can talk to them. You can find out what's going on. If you don't have anything to sell, you can find out or if what you sell isn't appropriate for the time you can, how you doing? How can I help? What's going on in your world? So much comes from that. I love that man. Thanks for sharing that.
Mark 61:41
Well, our time is about up. This conversations been really good. And just like I always promise, you know I didn't know that we're going to talk about what we expected to talk about and we definitely did not I really love what we talked about. I think that people will get a lot out of your story. If people want to connect with you people want to find you how do they find you on the Internet? Is that a thing for you? We're on the internet.
Jeremy 62:05
Absolutely. So the easiest way to find me is on LinkedIn. Believe it or not, I read every single message that people send. And I reply to that 95%. And so if you want to reach out, it's just Jeremy Jenson and the name of the company is Encore Search Partners. Track me down, shoot me a message, and I'll be happy to engage.
Mark 62:29
Awesome, man, I really, really appreciate the time. I appreciate the vulnerability. I think we really talked about some good stuff that people don't get to hear about a lot. I'm looking forward to our next conversation. And that's it for today. So if you like the conversation today, please subscribe, share it with your friends, make sure the word gets out that this information is out there. Let's not keep this a secret, people people need to hear this stuff. So share it with your friends, and make sure it's out in the light. We'll see you next time on You're Doing it Wrong. Thanks so much.