A North Carolina native, John Snyder graduated with a Biology degree in 1999 from Duke and then took a job at Net Friends as an IT Support Specialist for what was supposed to be a year break of fixing computers in research labs at Duke before going to grad school. As time quickly passed, work at Net Friends was enjoyable and challenging, allowing John to turn IT work into a career. After requesting and gaining an ownership stake in the company by 2009, the next decade was full of major lessons to learn as Net Friends grew from 16 employees to 47 in less than 4 years, then bounced around that level and in various iterations of the business until he began to build the business with real vision and intention from 2016 onward, discovering Traction and EOS in late 2018. Net Friends is currently over 50 staff, actively hiring, and poised for significant growth despite the pandemic.
The most common setup for EOS-run companies is to have the owner take the Visionary seat. But what happens when the Owner is a natural Integrator and there's nobody else to take the Visionary role? That's the situation John Snyder found himself in. In today's episode, John talks about how it's like being a reluctant Visionary. Is the role starting to grow on him, and how does a natural Integrator find the perfect Integrator for himself so he can let go and embrace the Visionary side of things?
5:34 - John's experience with working for a company without focus and without a vision.
19:49 - John discovers EOS and things start to fall into place.
26:11 - John, a natural Integrator, struggles to fit into the Visionary role
35:30 - John is confident that his business can survive the pandemic thanks to EOS
46:03 - Visionaries feel guilty about loving the job too much
52:37 - John craves for the inspiration and motivation that a Visionary provides
1:02:02 - While being a reluctant Visionary, John feels like he can let go of the Integrator role after he found Colin, his perfect Integrator.
1:09:22 - Mark and John discuss scorecard mechanics
1:17:47 - John's passionate plea for entrepreneurs.
"I know we're focused on the business, I know we're focused on profits and growth, and culture and all those different things. But don't forget about the real problems and challenges some of the folks are having, and make sure that you have an environment where those can come out, surface and be discussed, and it's not stigmatized."
GET IN TOUCH:
Mark Leary:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
John Snyder:
https://netfriends.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-snyder-5632964/
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
You're Doing It Wrong - John Snyder
Wednesday, December 9, 2020
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
integrator, visionary, people, vision, business, scorecard, company, eos, david, pandemic, thought, happen, talk, year, feel, work, plan, friends, deep, person
SPEAKERS
VO, John S., Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary, my name is Mark, a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help you get control of your business. And part of how I do that is by letting you listen in on a conversation between two people who have a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world, talking about something that you already know something about. But this time, we're digging deeper, and unlocking those little tips and tricks and that deep knowledge that allows you to break through your ceilings and really get control of the business and ultimately, live a better life. And so today, we're talking about a wonderful subject or collection of subjects with with a fantastic, accomplished business leader with a great story. JOHN Schneider is running a killer company, more than 50 people right now really feeling in control of their world and their life with a lot of structure running solidly on Eos. And, you know, as an owner or the owner, you've got partners. But that wasn't always the case. And there's a lot of nuance and color in John's story that I think we can all learn from. So to dig into that. I just want to say, welcome, john.
John S. 01:14
Thank you, Mark, great to be here.
Mark 01:16
It's really, it's really good to have you because I think we talk a lot of different talk about a lot of different things on this podcast, everything from marketing to the life of the visionary, and getting out of their own way. We talked about integrators, what they are, how they fit in with the whole mix, inner work, all these different things. But when you and I talked about what that was so cool, is that the structure, the you know, the path to being this healthy EOS company, getting what you want out of the business and live wasn't so straightforward. So, you know, walk us through that. How did you how did you get here?
John S. 01:53
Sure. I mean, I've got one of those stories that's up from the mailroom, I started out at net friends, we're an IT company doing support. And we're based in North Carolina, I started out just as a field tech. And that was back in 1999. I did a lot of stuff with y2k prep and things like that around that time. And I was in a company that was brand new, and just kind of got started, I was fresh out of college nephrons, the only job I've ever had, which is a little odd. And I have, I basically just kind of was chillin and enjoying helping people out and solving problems. And it wasn't probably for, I guess, almost four to five years after I was at net friends, when I started realizing that there was no vision, no visionary. We seem to have values. We're very grounded in values. But we started actually ambushing David, our founder, every year at the Christmas party, say like, what's the plan? What's the vision, and he's like, the plan is to have a good party. Yay, he would dodge it really well. And, and quite frankly, he never, ever set a vision. And it's actually one of the reasons why I boldly before I was even 30 went up to him and said, I don't want to raise this year, I want ownership because I want to try to steer this place. I didn't know what the heck I was talking about. But I just was so hungry by this point. Because I'd been at that point, I'd been at net friends for eight years, and I enjoyed my day to day and what I did, but I did not see a vision, I had no idea what we were going to be what we were working on, I was watching opportunities go flying by. And I just knew that if I could potentially become an owner, maybe a vision would come to be I didn't actually have the the experience or were with all to to be a visionary or to come up with a vision. I just knew that the absence of a vision was acutely felt.
Mark 03:58
So how did that conversation go?
John S. 04:00
He was in his office. This is like 2007. And he was like, wait, what you want ownership. He's like, how old are you? I was like, I'm 28. He's like your baby. And I was like, hey, I've been working for you for years. And he said, Well, okay, let me think about it. And then you spent about 18 painful months thinking about it. That's no, that's a no joke. Well, he went on kind of a life quest of his own trying to figure out well, what do I want? Because at that time, one of the reasons we needed a vision was we were doing software development, cabling, IT support staffing. We were doing all sorts of random stuff. And one of the things that was painful was David, a wonderfully accommodating guy, really good problem solver and crisis manager, but he's very accommodating. So he was like, yes to that. yes to that. yes to that and without ever really saying Hey, this is what I think we need to tackle as a company. So we had just kind of become a smorgasbord of doing a little bit of everything. And, and he was very frugal. So he only wanted to hire like one person at a time when we could afford it. And I kept feeling like I lost to the developers or lost to someone else. When my support team needed more resources, so I felt constrained by resources. I didn't feel like I had a purpose every year and like, new years, I was like, gosh, can I do this another year, without knowing where this is going? And and what's happening? And so anyway, back
Mark 05:34
to the talk about a lack of vision. Yeah, I believe that. But I also hear a real frustration with a lack of focus. Oh, it's huge. Oh, yeah. So much going on. And nothing's getting moved forward. because everything's getting a drop of attention. And nothing's getting like real attention.
John S. 05:50
That's right. And no one's accountable for anything. David is a wonderful person. And, and that's what kept me there. You know, you can go a long way, being a wonderful person who's capable and skilled in many ways, but I wasn't being led anywhere. There was no leader, there was a sense of leadership, or, hey, we're gonna go conquer that hill, we're gonna go to this great place. And this is this is a rough plan, how to get there, or, hey, there's no plan to get there. I just think that would be cool, don't you? None of that happened. It was very interesting. And it's weird that I tolerated it for as long as I did. It, I think it's a testament to the area that I'm in was really just full of great things to do. And distractions, maybe the people I worked with were great. There's lots of things you can focus on, when there's not a vision.
Mark 06:47
Well, that's sort of not focused, right? You can do when you're having no focus,
John S. 06:52
quick copy, edit, needed and focus wrong word.
Mark 06:56
That's exactly how many priorities Can you have? Well, technically one, because it's the one thing that comes first, right? But I'm curious if your whole concert division, was there an ego check when you said, hey, there's no vision? Was he like, No, I know. Or was he like, What do you mean, there's
07:11
lots of Asian we can do anything we want?
John S. 07:14
No, I think he pretty much avoided it. I mean, he knew there wasn't he kind of knew that if he picked the vision there'd be losers, right? Ah, and in David's accommodation just made it so that he didn't want to pick sides. Because, quite frankly, you know, if you're really going to pick something and focus on it, that does mean you are not focusing on lots of other things.
Mark 07:34
Yeah. The whole thing down to this inability to say no, because that's the train you really said. It's like, it's yes to everything, which means we're doing everything, which means there's nothing in specific that we're doing. Correct. So that's that it is interesting to see how it almost kind of comes down just to that just figure out how to say no, once in a while, and all this will start to chip into into place.
John S. 07:53
Yeah. Now here's the thing, he would say no, if something costs a lot of money, but he couldn't say no to an idea. The idea was too interesting to him. So became a vessel for a lot of ideas. But But without any one of them bubbling to the top, you know, it became just this weird thing started not things not moving forward, things get stuck as soon as you gotta buy something. That's right.
Mark 08:15
It's like us download the free trial. And as soon as it needs a license key right now, just think about it some more.
John S. 08:20
That's right. And a quick quick aside about how he ended up not starting met friends without a vision was it was it he was given a book of business as a little bit of a, like, here's a, here's a an opportunity for you that landed in his lap, good on him for seeing it as a great opportunity and seizing it. But one thing led to another. And that's kind of how net friends came about one thing led to another. And it was a lot of happenstance. And then suddenly, he had a full fledged company around him. One thing too, that happened while I was asking for ownership, which was a proxy for we need a vision, and it's got to happen sooner than later was there was two top level visions that were competing. And when the leader doesn't pick a vision, there, there begins to be, you know, a vision forming underneath the leader or the owner, in this case, David, and that's something that created enough conflict inside our business that it really could have caused the whole thing to implode. So luckily, was there like a mutiny forming
Mark 09:21
potentially or Well, yeah,
John S. 09:23
cuz you start getting factions, right? So people will form. And it wasn't based on politics, it was really based on the fact that you use a zero sum game if you're only going to hire one person at a time, you definitely have a winner or loser on that. And so headcount becomes your score keeping mechanism. And if my team can gain a person we were up a point right or up a touchdown. Pick your sport metaphor. Yeah. And and that was quite literally happening. And, you know, we're smiling at each other at lunch like you know, the different people with their plan. Everyone's all chummy and friends, but it was, you know, underneath the table, we're like kicking each other in the Tin shells. I mean, you know, it was it was some pretty open hostility that was forming. And so something had to give, you can't go without a vision, you know, indefinitely, a vision will happen and it may not be good, it may be very dark. So you're 28. And you asked for ownership. And that's proxy for vision, you know, had it was the next major step. Waiting, waiting and waiting. Now, in all seriousness, after after that 18 month period, David split the company into two pieces. One was a software development company, and then net friends proper, the original company I was hired into, became an IT services firm, and that was in 2009. The Great Recession, you know, it just started. So here I am, I have this business, and really didn't know anything about anything the first year. Oh, gosh, we must have I was we worked my butt off that year, it was a lot of work. And I think we made something like $12,000 profit, you know, there were 16 of us. And I was like, Wait, what? Hang on a second.
Mark 11:07
900 bucks apiece. Yeah, I
John S. 11:08
remember just being stunned. And David day was like, Hey, we were profitable. And I was like, oh, gosh, I should have asked more questions. That's the youth really shiny, but but we turned it around. And then I was able to cobble together a vision ask thing, and really say this is what we're going to focus on. We came up with, who's kind of like we we used our website as a way to say, hey, that's where Wes, that's what we're doing right now. And simply not being distracted by software development or something like that. We got momentum just out of that. So I didn't have Eos. At the time. I did not have anything. In no business coaching. No, no real management, mentoring or training. But I did, I did know that at least clearing the clutter. And having something to focus on will get you pretty far. The problem is is a bit that is in the vision. And that also isn't a plan, which I learned about three or four years later that that you've got to have both of those because the company grew 40%, year over year, in 2009 2010 2011 2012. So now I have 45 people reporting to me, business is booming. But I'm sleeping three to four hours a night crying a lot. One of the things I jokingly say is that this coffee is really salty. And I'm not sure if it's the tears or the stress reaction I'm having. Ah, but yeah, we got 2012 we were we It was just an insane year. And that was when I realized Not only do I need a plan, I need managers because I had 45 people reporting to me directly. You said that and
Mark 12:51
I the first time I heard that I was like, Oh, yeah, sometimes people just say that may mean, but you mean directly to you. Like they were like you're my boss. Yeah, it's a lot of one on one. Oh, well,
John S. 13:02
let's be Let's be quite honest, one on ones weren't happening. I had an open door policy. You know, which is a proxy for Yeah, I'm not doing management. And the other thing that was really troubling about it all too, was I was still 30 hours a week billable to customers. So it was it was crazy. And and again, you know, no vision, no plan, when the growth happens, because it may happen accidentally, not by design, then you're not really prepared for it. And you certainly don't adapt to it.
Mark 13:38
Well, right. Well, could you there's no observation, there's no ability to make a change, make changes intentionally. But I want to I want to pause for a second because most companies just completely disintegrate like asteroids coming into the atmosphere in what you just described. Because you know, you're emotionally wrecked you. You can barely get through your billing 30 hours a week and still 40 some odd people are still working with you. Yeah, that's actually very impressive. I mean, it's not good. Like, I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying you, you have built some endurance, and you are tough to survive that because that is brutal. Yeah, because what normally happens in that case is the cascade, you can't keep up and the culture falls apart. And they and they look, the people leave or they the clients get upset and it just falls apart. But you just kept gas pedal down. We're gonna turn the crank faster. That's how we're gonna get this done until what happens next? I don't actually know. It sounds like I'm just teed you up. Like, I know. I don't, but I'm assuming Something must have happened. Yeah, well, I
John S. 14:40
mean, you know, to go through it. 2012. I just said, Hey, you five people, your managers now. So just pick five people in my team that I thought, you know, roughly, that they could probably manage and the rest of the people I taught I had an individual conversation with everybody in like two weeks. period. And that conversation was one of two flavors, you're a manager. And these are the people that that you're now managing. And the rest of the folks were like, this is your manager, please.
Mark 15:11
Respect me. Stop calling me.
John S. 15:15
Yeah. And it was it was kind of crazy. And, and, you know, obviously, I mistakes were almost guaranteed to happen in that. So not all the managers, you know, stepped into that role and were successful. I look back at it. And of course, if if I had done this intentionally and with planning and EOS, I think a lot of the managers would have succeeded in their role. I didn't pick a single you know, seat No, no right person, right seat, you know, happened at all there. It was just simply seats. I think I need roughly a manager per 10 people. So yeah, okay. That's how I divvied it out.
Mark 15:51
really strict math him,
John S. 15:53
and that's not good, slapdash, quick, quick and dirty. You know, because there's strong winds in a business climate and when you put up a little rickety shed, it's not gonna, it's not gonna last it's gonna hold up. Yeah, yeah, it's gonna get leaks at a minimum, but more likely, you're gonna wake up and go, Oh, that's the stars. I shouldn't see the stars. So yeah, and but to keep going with it just a little bit further. We we started doing this tumble forward iteration year after year until around, honestly, 2018. And it's embarrassing to say how long it was with us kind of bumbling around in this interminable period. But it wasn't until EOS we finally it was like, you know, you have to hear something seven times. Yeah, we finally had a person say, when I was really, really ready, I think you need to read traction. I really think you need to sit down and read traction. And you know, like, I'm sure you've heard this story a million times. It's like a bolt from the sky. It's like, yes, you know, and I'd seen the I forget his name, but the guy who did good to gray, you know, I'd seen him talk and Jim Jones, Jim Collins, thank you. And I've been to all these little, you know, one hour business meetings and you know, gone to the webinars and you come out of it going, Oh, yeah, that's some good advice right there, you know, top three things you need to work on or something but EOS is I needed it in a book form that took me through the whole narrative and gave me a prescriptive plan. And my team was sure ready for it. So we we adopted EOS like, like,
Mark 17:32
that was funny, the team being ready for it. That's one of the things that I encountered early on, I'd be brought in to talk about it to the team by the visionary or the integrator or both. And I established pretty quickly that the leadership team oftentimes wanted it more than the visionary, but they were trying not to embarrass the visionary as like, no, you're doing great. We like it here. But this might help. This could help you. You're doing good, man. You're doing good. We love you. But yeah, start the system like now immediately now. Because now
John S. 18:07
Oh, I had people telling me all the accountability in this place is terrible, or, you know, nothing gets done unless you personally weigh in on it and say something about it. So delegation was impossible. And I learned later looking back on it, I was like legs sweeping the people around me left, right and center. I would like delegate to them. And then like I would get antsy within a day or two and then take it back. I was doing all sorts. I was, yeah, every single thing you could imagine you shouldn't do. I was committing those sins. But no, across the everyone, everyone in the company really welcomed it. The detractors I had and it's totally fair, they were saying this is a fad. This is a phase John's doing the little thing. Give it three months, you know, and, and that was probably the only negative pushback I got, which was constructive pushback, which hidden in that little phrase was, can this not be the next fad, please? I'm tired of fads.
Mark 19:08
Right? Yeah, you're exactly right. There's they're saying challenging. It's a fad. And I really need you to prove me wrong, right. And I'm going to put up the resistance because I don't want to be hurt by this. But it'd be great if we That's exactly right. Because I get that it's like the end of the focus that, you know, when I the very first day, I get lower ratings around that one thing they say, I want to believe this could be a 10 but I'm gonna give it a seven because it only is a 10 if this actually plays out, and then we use an early Yeah, and digit building day one in getting 10 they're like, because we actually came back actually are doing this and this and we're taking it seriously. So true.
John S. 19:49
So true. So yeah, 2018 we started implementing EOS and it was it was so effective. So quickly, everyone really snapped into place and saw the power of it. Now, it didn't mean that all of a sudden the problems went away, we did start identifying issues left, right and center and breaking them down into due to dues that were actionable. We, you know, were much better at it than we were on day one or day 10 or whatnot. But the hunger and the eagerness to give it a real shot was it really meant a lot to me, but it also in hindsight was like, yeah, cuz it was so overdue. I mean, you're watching some very, very thirsty person chug a gallon of water. So But yeah, I mean, it was. Yeah, there's so much more to unpack there. But yeah, that's, that's it? Yeah. So that's the overview.
Mark 20:44
Yeah. So that's okay. So you guys into EOS in that regard? So, you know, you talk about this concept of the visionary and the integrator. And you we didn't, we didn't really, let's unpack that a little bit. So the visionary and the integrator, are the sort of archetypal yin and yang leaders, that every business, we've discovered, every business needs an integrator to integrate and harmonize and glue together the major functions of a business. And if you're not familiar with that terminology, you can think of it that as the boss, the boss, or thinking of whether this is the President, the CEO, or the general manager, this whatever time you're thinking the boss, you got to have that person who's data driven, accountability oriented, can delegate and can unify the team. And what what you need to know about that, if you don't already know about that is that there's another kind of leader that if they're, if they exist, you gotta, you got to adapt to that. And that's this concept of the visionary. And the visionary could also have similar titles, it could be the CEO, it could be things like that. But it's where this integrator is focused on accountability is good with hard conversations is probably more patient with letting processes roll out, they can see steps one through 10, all 10 steps, a visionary might see steps one and 10. And there's probably something in the middle that on time for it. And it's very, very emotionally motivated, and is bigger and bigger ideas, trying to take a bigger and bigger bite of the future and is motivated to be outside the organization and hoping everything is running great back at the shop. And so the yin and yang of integrator, visionary is so important. You got the outside leader, the inside leader, outside leaders, visionary inside leaders, integrator, the visionary brings the ideas and the integrator stewards the plan to completion and drives accountability. So that with that primer in place, you were you were saying, There's no vision, I got to bring this vision, but you don't think of yourself as is that visionary? To talk to that?
John S. 22:37
Yeah, I really don't, I will, I am getting my footing on that front. And, but recently, and thanks to EOS, it's really made me do some hard thinking. I tried to run the company through an integrator prism or integrator frame, without having the terminology. And what I mean by that is, I tried to coach and mentor and lead by example. And and I would do those 10 step plants Oh, yeah, here's what we got to do. And I would rattle off the things that need to be done and, and I'm pretty good at following up on those things later. And, and staying on top of it. I love that I my term for it was operations, I love operations, I love getting in there and and not just meeting the, the customer and shaking their hand for the big sales win, but really, you know, being there building that relationship with them over time. So what happened was, is we we had, we had these like little mini visions, nothing that was really substantial. A lot of it was more like, let's not do that. And, and you know, and it took me a long time to realize it that you really just can't get very far, you're very zigzaggy. In your approach, you're kind of lurching around roughly in the right direction, but without a real clear path forward. So so to really answer your question in a more direct way, I think we basically we're, we're probably going to fall into that same trap, without me stepping up and saying I need to, I need to force myself into a vision, I need to surround myself by really smart thought for thought leaders and get some get some ideas that maybe I'm not the guy that comes up with all the best ideas, because a lot of my ideas are incremental, but I can still see a really good idea and recognize that that is something that we could integrate here. And and by proxy, get a vision out of that. And then that may sound less inspiring and like wow, you know, because I would love to say, Oh yeah, I basically go spend a week at the beach and then come out of it with an epiphany and we go do that. But largely, I find myself so strongly in that integrator mindset, that what I have to do is almost creative Have a vision through like the stuff I'm reading and exposing myself to that I can then adapt and make it our vision. And I hope that doesn't sound strange or sad. But it's something that I think I'm kind of, I'm in this I'm in this position where somebody has great vision, I know that not having a vision is a catastrophe, but also know that my partner, David, he's not going to be the guy that's gonna suddenly 20 years after knowing he's gonna supply it. So I don't know, did I cover that enough?
Mark 25:34
I think I should find ways to kind of inspiring because what I've discovered and seen and I didn't discover all this a lot is is Geno's work. And Mark winters has done a lot of this as well, that this idea of the visionary and the integrator isn't necessarily exclusive, you're not one or the other, you have a propensity for each in a certain quantity. So like I could measure you. And in fact, Mark does this with, you know, your vision of a visionary score and an integrator score, you could score low on both high on both? And did you happen to have your you know, your scores? Or
John S. 26:04
I do, I don't have the exact number, but I'm like mid 90s for integrator and like low 70s. For visionary.
Mark 26:11
Yeah, perfect. That's exactly what I was expecting something kind of in that category. So somebody who's passionate about something can be the visionary, even if they have the ability to be the integrator. The problem with the visionary and integrator personas is that they're, they're incompatible with each other in any given moment, if you're wanting to think big, thinking pragmatically and saying no, is not really conducive, it's pushing and pulling at the same time, if you want to either push, or pull. And that kind of creativity just just does better with, with two people doing it. So so it's like the whole reason you have, you know, two sets of attorneys, you know, you want to you know, the prosecution and the defense, it doesn't make sense to put into one person, and that's the same thing in the business. And so it's not that you can't do both, it's that you really had a need and need the visionary side, every visionary is doing the same thing. They're filling a gap, right? So so your, your primary tendency to be an integrator is so easy for you, you can do it. The visionary was trying to get pushed out of the way because the integrators look like I don't have time for your visionary this, I don't want to mess with that. I just want to integrate, but that but the visionary inside he was like, No, dude, we need a vision. And you need me to out a little bit, at least a little bit, at least I can do it. And it's in conflict, right? If you do let it out, it creates this kind of push and pull. I don't like wearing both hats. But you're you've been able to do it. And what I've found is that those integrators who really are great, what they're craving, and visionaries don't get this this is this is hard for visionary to get an integrator is craving a vision to be given to them that can fuel them. Yeah. And it's sort of like what you want to be is on the same page with a visionary. And so you don't have to do all that pre processing thinking. They do all the pre processing thinking you go, Hey, is this a pretty cool? Do you like this picture I drew and you're like, and that's incredible picture. Let's go make that real. That's what you want more than anything.
John S. 28:06
Yeah, it's funny, too. We've got a gentleman who's been with me, his name's Colin, he's, he's been with net friends for like, 18 years. Quick, funny side story. When he was hired. I wasn't there for the interview. I was just a pianist at Netflix at the time. But I remember David told me all we found your clone. And I'm like, Oh, really tell me about this clone. He's like, Yeah, he bakes his own bread. I'm like, Oh, I don't I don't I don't do that. And then he he mentioned like three other things. I'm like, I don't do that. Who do you know who I am? But I think what David got and this is actually an epiphany that dawned on me pretty late recently is it Collin is an integrator at his soul, just like I am. And so what's been interesting, though, is Collins probably much more purely an integrator than I am. So by proxy, when I'm with Collin, my visionary side pops out a little bit more by contrast, and, and you can
Mark 29:06
let go of one the other one can do its job
John S. 29:08
and he's wicked hard on me. No, no, no, no, no, no, go back to the root. No, let's break this down. You have not thought this through enough. He's just so good at coming at me full bore without any concern of hurting my feelings. You know, you know, he knows I've got thick skin, and we work really well in this crucible. He's always professional and polite. I don't mean to disparage his character or anything and but he is definitely. For me.
Mark 29:37
It's constructive conflict. Yeah, absolutely.
John S. 29:39
And he is our integrator. I mean, he's, that's, in fact, we and we have company rocks that we're working on his he's basically his responsibility is to ensure that those rocks remain on track are no more than two weeks off track any given quarter and go to completion and, you know, we've we've made that His core priority. So he's helping me form the rocks. And he's helping me and my team complete those rocks. He's, he's great.
Mark 30:09
So it was interesting talking about this as like sort of a non standard configuration. I'm realizing right now I'm working with a company who has a very similar situation. In terms of the identity, the way you found your way into this is very different he is and we've identified, he is a master integrator, like top top shelf integrator, with a vision for his organization being very franchised, very franchisable, very process driven and all the things that an integrator would love, but it's really his business is really around franchises to actually is a franchise, and with a multi level model where all the franchising processes become really critical. And so he's able to see that he as visionary is to know what perfect integration looks like and get that actual integrator in place. And so he has to kind of like, model it just long enough to get it in place, and then really get the heck out of it, even though, even though he's going to be the very best Integrator for that his higher purpose, his higher role is visionary. And he's able to do that and let it go. And it works.
John S. 31:13
That's awesome. Yeah, letting it go is a real challenge. And I know that that's not a unique challenge. I mean, I mean, my hat tip to anyone who can, who can go that deep because when I see myself in an integrator role, I'm putting a piece of that idea deep into my soul into my brain and leaving a piece of me with it as well. I really want it to go somewhere because I feel invested in it in a deep way. So leaving that to just go on its own and and in the hands of others is it is a perpetual challenge for me.
Mark 31:49
So yeah, it's interesting, I think the challenge for high integrator visionaries is that you know, the difference, you can see details I mean, it all visionaries do, too, but in a different way. visionaries are emotionally detail sensitive, like, like, what was that comma about? Like, you know, like, that slight tone of voice is not what we how we talk around here, you know, it's something feels weird in the culture to me now. And I can't put a finger on visionaries are very good at these very sensitive, hypersensitive things like, I don't there's nothing wrong man's like, no, there's something wrong, I can smell it. That's what visionaries are great at. But the integrator side, it's like, I can see that this is a 123 step process, or visionary will never know. Like, I would never know that a good integrator knows like, No, you think you've got it all figured out with the 10 steps. It's not it's 123. Until you get up to speed on fully breaking this down, you're gonna have problems. And so is that x ray vision? And so to really train somebody to your level of integrator, in your way that that would be a little bit tricky. Absolutely.
John S. 32:50
Yeah. And we are, we haven't really talked about my other partner, Neil ish. He, because that's something I think is kind of interesting. You think that with my understanding that I don't have a vision or that we need one, which I definitely knew, all throughout, you think that I would look for and seek a visionary to fill that gap when I'm looking and trying to say, who's the who's the partner that's going to join me and David, what are we looking for? Instead, I chose someone who really had proven themselves and then an integrator type role, and then operations manager role. But I saw that they were ready to make a transition into being a sales person into into more of a sales oriented role. And, you know, obviously, I shouldn't say obviously, because you, you know, not everyone who's listening knows this. But I mean, Neil is just fantastic. He's a wonderful partner. And he, he really is an embodiment of the soul of the company, in a deep way. But in many ways, he's he still, we still have this, it put me in the same position where I was, and where I still didn't have a vision, a person who was going to set that vision and allow me to go out and do my little integrator thing. And I remember in the first year of our partnership, struggling with that feeling that I didn't get exactly what I wanted out of neelesh partnership, even though he was phenomenal. He was doing everything right. It was because I hadn't been fully honest with myself, and really thought about what that gap was that I had between me and David, that I was still seeking. And it's not because the again, I'm in the role of visionary and I'm okay in that role. But my super happy place is when I can just sit there and play in that integrator headspace still working on the business instead of in it. I do prefer that, you know, working on it instead of in it. But yeah, integrators do that, too.
Mark 34:44
Yeah. It's, I mean, oftentimes the visionaries are doing they're on it on the golf course are away. But that's right. Even even integrator who tend to be very thinking about their eyes are in toward the business. What does the process need to look like? Like, it's still it's still they're still working on the businesses not they're not typing their way out of the problem, they're thinking their way out of these problems.
John S. 35:06
Right and and my brand of integration is usually trying to think about the new thing I'm going to integrate in. So I'm trying to constantly kind of, you know, being an IT, you you're gonna pretty fast evolving space and, and you need to stay up on the latest and greatest and try to try to say, okay, what's this new product? Or this new thing that's coming out? And how are we going to fold it in? And I'm not talking about the little incremental tiny things, but the bigger the bigger shifts that are happening in our industry. And boy, howdy this year. I mean, we we saw that, you know, accelerate beyond any we did 10 years of of it, maturation as a society and in less than a year, thanks to everybody working from home and all the things that came with that.
Mark 35:50
So let's talk about that. What happened this last year?
John S. 35:53
What didn't happen? I mean, this is, uh, Oh, my gosh, so yeah, the pandemic was insane. For for us, we, what was probably the weirdest thing about the pandemic, and this may sound really strange was we'd actually been running drills, preparing for working from home, or what would happen if we had a major regional disaster, like a pandemic, we were actually planning on that. starting in September of 2019. We did this risk assessment, and we ended up getting a list of like 20 to 25, risks, big, big level risks that we needed to grapple with. pandemic was number three on that list. And we, we said, All right, well, let's let's sit down have a meeting, we went to the CDC website and downloaded their little checklist of what you need to do and started prepping and planning for what would we do if there was a pandemic, and we had to send all our staff home and everyone was quarantined? And I got to tell you when it was the first Monday in March, when it looked like this thing might actually be coming here and we might need to actually bring that plan out. It was the weirdest thing. So it was like did we make this happen on someone? This is not a drill and and I liked it when it was just a drill.
37:17
Oh, man. Yeah, I
Mark 37:19
mean, it's almost like make a crazy scenario make up something that could never happen. Okay, cool. disease. Right. Okay. Plus, run the traps and oh my god, don't anybody think of anything else? Crazy. Okay. Just think about next year as very benign. No more crazy drills, please.
John S. 37:39
Yeah, I would like the drill we run is what if we run out of snacks? Let's stick with that level. Right? Like,
Mark 37:46
okay, you know how to bake right. Okay.
John S. 37:49
Where's the nearest store? Quick get the credit card. Yeah. Oh, man. But that that was probably the biggest trial for everybody. That I mean, maybe maybe, you know, you have test cases here there. But the the collectiveness of it all, was something that I hadn't seen before where it really felt like we were all running from the same, you know, stampeding bulls coming after us. That was a really strange and scary position, because it didn't feel like there was any safe refuge. And yet, boy did we have to focus on innovation and evolving and standing by our people. And I'm super proud to say that we stood by our people, and we didn't cut salaries, we didn't cut staff, we we, you know, stood strong. And that was very, very hard to do, not because we didn't have great people, but in the face of all the advice I was getting, it was like cut your staff 30% you got to do whatever, you know, you got to you got to prepare for the worst. And, you know, of course, the stock market's crashing. So it looks, you know, looks like okay, maybe they're right, but, you know, if I didn't have EOS, and it was pre EOS does still didn't have any of that discipline. I do fear really down deep that I don't know, if I would have had as much of a rooted confidence in the place that I was in, that I could withstand that advice that I was getting, every person I talked to everything I read from all those channels were like, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. And, and that was difficult to do. And I don't think without that clarity of our values, clarity of where we stand, and how our powers our people. We stand by our people. That meant I had to do it even when things were really tough.
Mark 39:44
So what was your advice? thing got to cut 30% was revenue falling off? Oh, yeah.
John S. 39:52
Oh, yeah. We were contracting. And people were paying slower. It was the it was there was there was a A genuine reduction in our, our gross revenue. We were, gosh, I hate to say an actual number. But let's just say April was the biggest down month we've ever had by like a factor of three. Just that one month was painful. And you
Mark 40:21
get any worse, right? It's like it's Yes, it just one point in this. It's like it's one thing it was a dip. But if this is the beginning, that's a whole new thing. And that's
John S. 40:28
what we were staring at. And a big shout out. I mean, we went and we read, we went for the PPP loan, that gave us definitely a really good backstop. Of course, you know, we were in this interminable period where every day felt like a month, and you just didn't know what was going to happen if you were going to get it. But so even that uncertainty, which in the moment and in hindsight look like it went on for, for what felt like an emotional year, we had to stay steadfast and big testament to David and neelesh partners, we really rallied as a partner core and stay true to our values stay true to our company's goals and mission, we, you know, when you have a plan, that plan is your life raft, and you're able to, you know, you sure do miss the big awesome ship, you just, you know, got knocked off of, but you're able to say, okay, we're not going to drown, because we've got this plan. And, and that was real, and we clung to it. And we stayed true. And it gave us a way to focus the company on that plan, and say, Look, we don't want you to watch your your back, because you're worried about what what's going to happen to your job or something like that, we want you to focus on this plan. And we repeatedly said that in all of our company meetings, which we started up every single week to really keep everybody focused on that plan, keep everybody focused on their certainty that they were we had their back. And by doing that, that kept us on track that kept us focused. So
Mark 42:04
in terms of time and pulse, you've got the plan to keep up this dramatic fall off of revenue, and we're gonna keep our people was this a one month plan, this is a two week plan, because at some point, the plan has to change. Right? So how are you addressing the, we're gonna go back to the plan and re address it, and if things have changed,
John S. 42:21
so we we did talk about that we said, so this is this is some insider conversation that I had with David and neelesh. We're like, we looked at the numbers, and we're like, we can stay the course through June now of June. looks awful. not truly awful, as bad as April does and may isn't good either, then we're gonna have to do something. I don't know what it is, you know, we're but but we have that kind of leaders eat last mindset. You know, we'll we'll dig deep into our own coffers, we're not going to take compensation, that sort of thing. Because we want our people to thrive now that's I'm not judging anyone who doesn't have that kind of mentality. But as a partner Corps, that's how David neelesh and I think about our business he's leaders eat last.
Mark 43:09
Okay, so but you would you had run it, you felt like you could get enough of a time horizons and not revisit it for a while. Right. So,
John S. 43:16
math, okay. And that was before the PPP loan hit. Once the PPP loan hit, we're like, okay, we're, we're probably good for the year. You know, we can we can make this go. And plus I was seeing the results of that, that message to the team. And the emphasis on the strategy. Folks, were innovating, folks rallying. So I was watching this inspiring effect happen within my culture within my company. And that was it, because we just suddenly started paying attention to culture, we had been talking about how the powers our people, and we had been really emphasizing this. Here we are in the moment where it's tested. And I looked around at my team and, you know, through the zoom slash teams portal that I had, but I was able to see that there was a genuine awareness and nodding with me that Okay, yeah, I believe his words, I trust him. And I think he's gonna stay with me. And that meant that we got the best of of everybody. When you see that happening, you realize that the way out is through the way we're going to get to the other side of this is with this team focused on this plan. That's how we're going to get there. And, you know, you take that whole reluctant visionary concept that I that I that I have, only that felt good to have that vision and to have the team rally behind it. I can see why visionaries are who they are. It's intoxicating to see something that's in your brain and come to life is powerful. And it was just wonderful to see that happen. And it was something I could focus on and my partners could focus on through the glue And in Duma, that was a lot of a lot of 2020.
Mark 45:04
Well, so it's something that's, and I recognize him and ask a question that you might not have fully answered. So I feel like I don't just tell me that we will talk about it later. But you keep coming back to reluctant visionary. You've been out there, you've you've successfully created the vision. You've done it. And it's, it's been powerful. And you've led through chaos and crisis, and it's paid you back. And I still here like, yeah, and, and anytime I can take that hat off, I do.
John S. 45:40
It's true, though. Like the I'm like the guy that swims like I love getting in the water. But after 15 minutes, I'm like, and I'm done.
Mark 45:50
So I think there's two there's two things here, I want to create value for people listen to this create value for myself create value for you. And those are potentially all different. But one of the things that I think is really resonant with me that I think a lot of visionaries could take away from it. Like, not everybody wants that job. Like, don't feel too guilty when you love it so much. Right? A lot of visionaries go, Oh, I can't have that job. Because it's too fun all the time. Like, you know, all I have to do is think and like think about the future, and then come back and like, yeah, that's like, no, don't don't mess with the metrics. Like, I don't want you in the business. That's not a good use of your time, like do get out. But we need that vision is really inspiring when you come back into the office, and you're just so excited about where we're going. We love it. Now go leave and do it again.
John S. 46:35
Yep, no, it's true. I mean, little anecdote is like a side story. My sister went to college, and she thought she needed to be a science major. And in you know, she hated going to class she hated school was struggling to get a B. And then except in her history classes, she was crushing it. And she felt guilty doing her. I mean, she was to turn in like, papers that were twice as long, you know, like way but overdoing it. And she's like, I just couldn't stop, you know, and she got, and she thought it was wrong. And it was like, but you know, I remember talking to her one night, and I was like, you should be a history major. She's like, but that's not a real major. I was like, yeah, it is, it's a thing and who cares what you ultimately do with it? Isn't your happiness, what really matters and you're struggling, doing something that's not not natural to you go to the thing that's natural. And soon after that conversation she did. I don't think I was the only one telling her that. But, but she pivoted and she just crushed it getting all A's having a great time and graduated in great standing. And we're all really proud of her. She's awesome. But if she had kept going against the grunt the grain that would have been, that would have been really a lifelong struggle for her and she may have been turned off from like learning, you know, like, as an adult, like, I don't learn I guess that was a childish thing I used to do, and that would be a tragic outcome. I think the reason why I keep pivoting around the reluctant visionary is I look at like that story about my sister and I've got dozens of other stories like that. My worry is is that when you're going against the grain like that, my worry for myself is Oh, no, what if I end up like them? Like like hating hating the place that I'm in? The good news is is I think I found a way to do it, even though I'm reluctant about it. I have like like that's the story I mentioned earlier about Collin. I found someone I can have my integrator love fest with him and and that and that really fuels and feeds my soul. And, and, you know, and I've also learned that, you know, turning to someone like David hoping and hoping for a vision is is not going to be good for our relationship. He's not going to supply that. Does he bring other things to the table? Oh, yeah. He's fantastic with crises. He loves facilities management when the toilets out in the office. Well, he's all over it in that weird, that's the kind of thing where I'm like, Oh, no, not interested in that at all. And David's like, I'm on it, I got this. Yeah. And, and, I mean, he's does a lot more than just that. But I mean, boy, he's, he's so good at so many different things. But vision isn't it, it's just not a thing. And and, and so, but I do know that we need one I do know that every business needs one. And boy, I'm impressed by anyone who's a natural visionary, it's they're fun people. I mean, they really are
Mark 49:26
sometimes fun. You know, sometimes you like that fun to be on the other side of the fence. Like fun you want to watch not funny you want to live with so that's fair. You know being and I'm not trying to beat up on my visionary clients and friends or for myself, you know, I I think a lot of us start businesses as visionaries, and we kind of go through this delusion of like, man, why can't everybody be just like me? And, and we, if we had more me's everything will be going great. Somewhere in life. Life holds up a mirror and it's not good. Like, no, no mark, one is quite enough. Let's be sure about that. And you have a contribution you definitely do. But we need some diversity and other parts of the puzzle to create a full picture. And that's exactly that's turned out to be the case.
John S. 50:17
Oh, yeah, I've I have multiple mirrors in my company. And they have I know all their names, I will not list them here. Because we don't have that much more time than so many people that are, I don't know what it is, you know, like, there you have that guy that you know, you can you can crack jokes about, because he's a good natured guy. And that's actually kind of what he wants. I have I seem to be surrounded by people who are very comfortable giving me Frank feedback.
Mark 50:45
Yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah, one of the questions that I asked one of my clients is this question that seems cuz you said it, like every business needs a visionary. And I don't I don't take that as a, as obvious. And I asked them, Do you have a visionary? And if they don't answer that, and sometimes the visionary leaves, retires. Other things happen? Do we do we need it still, we still need a visionary, or something even changes in the organization. And I've had a few organizations to decide that they either don't need one yet or don't need one now, for simplicity, or for the fact that the business isn't changing much and that kind of thing. So you take it as obvious you you do you feel like net friends needs a visionary?
John S. 51:26
Gosh, oh, I'm just I'm afraid to answer that question fully. Which means it's a really good question. I, you I think on short term, Sprint's you could probably get away without a visionary. But if you're trying to grow, you're trying to attract really passionate people, people that are going to take you somewhere, oh, gosh, I feel like you need that inspiration that comes with the visionary. You need a rallying cry. You need someone that can give everybody a sense of purpose and place. I look at a visionary as someone who, who is your best recruiter, not just of people who are going to work with you, but they're the recruiter of your customers. They're in that's it. Maybe I'm putting too much stock in the visionary because I don't necessarily have one here. So I'm, I may be putting them on a pedestal that is like what
Mark 52:18
you're doing, because you're making the case for like, No, no, I needed it. Because it sounds like a kind of a wish list for you, like you're doing it. So I bet I'm betting without having had this conversation in depth with you offline, that what you just outlined are the things that you kind of force yourself to do, that you'd like to have to not do. And so I think what you're saying is very powerful. And I appreciate that you're
John S. 52:37
going there with that. Yeah, I mean, you know, think of it in my head to give everybody a relatable story. I mean, all of us have been either to a concert or a talk with a with someone and they have moved you, you know, you really felt honestly like something shift in your chest. When you listen to them speak you you know, you're inspired and you're taken somewhere. Maybe you're transported imaginatively, somewhere, maybe you just come away with that with this weird buzzy feeling in your chest that's just so meaningful. And and it's a spiritual moment. And, and I, I've gotten a taste of that through various other endeavors and and in so many ways of hungered for that in the place, I spend the majority of my time each work week, you know, I've wanted that same level of being stirred and moved deep in my soul. And that's what I think a visionary does not every day, not like, Okay, you've moved me for the eight o'clock hour, it's nine o'clock, I'm ready for my next spiritual moment. But just, you know, so not about putting the pressure too much there. But there, you could look back and say, Wow, you know, I remember this talk that I had with you and you you, you made me think about things differently. I crave that. And and yet I understand that. It's it's something that I don't want to say I'm not going to get. But it's something that I've kind of given up on, on just sitting around craving for it. And I've just tried to recreate that as much as possible. I look at the people that I work with every day. And I try to give them some approximation of that, knowing that I'm, I'm not the best vessel for that. I know. Yeah, I but I give it my best.
Mark 54:21
No, I love it. And I think that what you're describing is what i what i see every organization needs some form of beacon, sort of the lighthouse or whatever, where are we going north star, whatever, whatever your metaphor is. I always just want to say that the visionary is kind of a high priest of what's right and wrong in your organization. And that's subjective. It's kind of how I describe it. Other people probably just, it's not as pure as people who would disagree with that. But what I do know is that every organization kind of crass. What they think they need sometimes is crafted on the basis of what they have. That's that's a unique thing about the visionary because sometimes it's sort of built around the person who's in the spot at the moment. But there is a real opportunity that comes up when vacancy is discovered or created, because I take it very seriously, if you're going to transplant a visionary, it's kind of like a heart transplant, like you really need to think it through. It's not just an operational or a finance thing. Whereas if you got the skills, you're good, it's like, you're gonna decide what's right and wrong in many ways in the culture, and you're gonna lead the organization in many ways. And so I really encourage people to slow that process down, think about it really hard. But there's an interesting example of visionary transition that I think is really informative for a lot of companies. Well, there's, there's two I'll mention when you think of what happens with like apple, that's the visionary was Steve Jobs. And Tim Cook is the integrator, what happens when you transition to a new new visionary, a lot, right? The competence in Apple very different these days, and then I won't go into that. And then many people are sick of the apple analogy, but it's a good one to touch base on EOS worldwide. However, the original visionary is, of course, Gino Whitman, he wrote the book he created he absolutely the high priest of Eos. At some point, he decided it was not his best calling. And the new visionary was a guy named Mike Payton. And he took over for a while. And and there was a new chapter for us. And what needed to happen there was it was different, and they had a different description of what that seat looked like. And then last year, Payton said, I don't think this is the right thing for me any longer, I'm not living the life I want to live. And so I think it's better better for me to live the life I want to live in and create an opportunity for someone else to be the visionary. And so there was actually a vacancy in the visionary for we'll call it not six to nine months, I don't know the math, because COVID was in there. And that really didn't help things in terms of the search, and then a new guy, my friend, Mark O'Donnell just took over as the visionary. And it's a whole new set of things. And it's a little less high priestly now which I, I like the high priest concept, I like having that. But it's a little bit about, you know, having somebody who can envision the future, seeing around the corners we can't see around. And so the question starts to become, are there corners that we need to see around, and if so, we might need a visionary, if it's a straight path down the hall, maybe visionary is not so critical. But if there's turns down the road, and we need to know what's on the other side of the turn, then the call to have that that visionary could be there, and it could be worth figuring out what that looks like, and finding the right person for because it sounds like it takes a lot of energy from you to do it.
John S. 57:32
It does take a lot of energy. But I feel like, I feel like I'd be so afraid that, you know, someone would take things in a different direction. At it's almost like, I don't want to say that that ship has sailed, and they're, you know, I've kind of given up on the vision. But I've also found that, you know, people evolve and change over time, not radically, you know, it's pretty rare for someone to suddenly pivot. But I am, thanks to this COVID and seeing my team rally and getting really inspired and moved by them, I'm, I'm going to start trying to really think about well, maybe that feeling that I have that I'm not a visionary, or that I'm a pure integrator. And um, and, you know, maybe that that image that I have of myself might need to go through a little bit of evolution. And I might need to say, maybe I'm immortalizing and holding up this, I'm an integrator too much and might need to say, you know what, try being a visionary for a little while, try to go into that role. I'm surrounded by people who are pretty darn good integrators who are pretty good at it at coming up with the multi step plan and executing it. And you know, what if I get out of their way, fully, but I also say, Hey, I think let's, let's integrate in this direction, I think that there could be that could be the next leg and maybe next decade, at an efference. If there's another pandemic, that decade will happen within the span of one year. But hopefully, I get a normal decade and let that let that pan out. But that's that's kind of where my headspace has been drifting towards. And in a lot of it is because, you know, what this COVID situation has done is it's made us all think about and reflect on what is our core, and where are we at now? And where are we going to head to that's, that's forced me to really sit in the visionary space longer than I normally would left to my own devices. So sometimes those real intense external factors that come in at us are ultimately the medicine we need for for, you know, evolving as human beings evolving who we are.
Mark 59:43
Yeah, we've all been through a lot of intense therapy in terms of the seeing, seeing the darkest weakest parts of ourselves and being forced to deal with them, you know, at a much accelerated rate. And so isn't that
John S. 59:57
true? You know, I
Mark 59:58
don't wanna speak for people who are really Suffering is at a really deep level right now. Because it would be too hard for a lot of people to see what's going on right now is something good. But for a lot of people there, there is a lot of light in that. And many most people I talked to do see, the last nine months is, if still painful, paving a path for a really great future and really been very teaching and illuminating and transformative in ways that really would almost have been impossible to to transform it in any other way. Hmm,
John S. 1:00:34
crises. And really tough. tough things that happen to you that are that are truly beyond your control really do shape who you are, Help Center you and to what matters most. The collectiveness of COVID the collectiveness of this pandemic I think has been a powerful thing to see. Because, uh, you know, you're not just, you know, when you have like a loss of a family member, that's a very personal, very deep thing, but it happens in your immediate family or immediate vicinity. You know, this has been something where you can look around and this is this is everywhere and impacting everybody. So, yeah,
Mark 1:01:15
well, what stuff it is, and you know, it kind of in that line, I, you know, I don't want to try to, you know, coach you publicly where I didn't turn into intentionally asked questions that really throw you into the sensitive spaces. But I'm really, I'm really curious to see where this goes over time, more than we'll cover in this podcast, in terms of whether you feel like your life would be at its best. If you relinquish the visionary responsibility to somebody who you believed in their vision 100%. And thought, this is amazing to follow this brightness, Northstar, I can just go to work, or the opposite, which is, you know, what, I can have somebody do integration work, and I can completely let go of it. And I can be the right visionary right now. And let that be 100% of me,
John S. 1:02:02
I'm leaning towards the latter, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna say I'm, I'm gonna fully execute to that, because I, the tendencies that I have, are very strong. But I do think that, you know, I don't wanna say thanks to this year, but because of this year, I think that's probably the direction I'm going to head and it's probably going to fill and satisfy a deep need that I've had for the last 20 years, that I'm, I'm just becoming more and more in touch with. That's pretty cool.
Mark 1:02:32
Yeah, and so it is super cool. It's a great story, it's great for people to hear, I suppose it's kind of observed that a tight loyal culture is almost always the result of visionary work. execution and profitability. And results are almost always resulted in greater. And so you have to have both. And if you're doing both, you're gonna have to pick at some point, assuming the vision takes you to a higher level. Now you do have that choice. You can say, you know what, let's optimize where we're at. That's totally as an option. And so let me ask, Are you planning to continue to grow and dominate more, or you want to make the most of where you're at?
John S. 1:03:07
I don't want to go down too many different directions. Because that could, again, we add another hour to the whole podcast. But I do think that I have, I have a plan in both directions. And part of the vision is me actually sitting down and making sure I've got focus on the one that makes the most sense, and that I'm going to get passionate about and I can then spread that passion into the company. So I'm not necessarily, you know, trying to dodge that question. Mainly saying, if I really answered it, I have a feeling that I would talk for 20 to 30 minutes in some sort of rambling fashion. Because it's, it's jelling in my head, it's starting to form. And I do know, I've got to pick one, and and
Mark 1:03:53
talk, man, you just get in the room of your integrator, man. That's exactly what that's for. Man. Well, so I got to change the subject. Exactly. But this is a kind of a parallel thing. And I didn't want to get out of here without talking about it. You You were all working into working together in the office before pandemic? Yes, yeah. So then, you know, in a twist of fate, you've suddenly need to do manage everybody remotely. And you needed to help a bunch of clients also work remotely. I like to say, because a lot of companies struggle with that. And this ties in Division, because this is where we're going. But there's also the execution piece. And so I kind of want to the reason this is this is paired up, we know where we're going, we get the vision, this is the visionary stuff, but we've also got the on the ground execution. A lot of companies I've talked to got really uncomfortable with work at home, because they don't feel like they can manage. And what I say to those folks is like if you don't know, if you're not comfortable managing people from home, then you should not be comfortable managing them anywhere, because you don't know what you want from them. How did you encounter that?
John S. 1:04:53
So we've we actually have a tendency to all be remote. I did not actually have an office at night. Friends until 2016 2017, it's it's crazy, I just, I worked either at a client site or at home, encouraged everybody in the company to have that same mentality, we did not have to expand our office space much until 2016. Because we no one really came into the office, other than the wonderful people who did our financing and dispatching and things like that, but the, the majority of the company was atomized and spread around in our Research Triangle Area. So I'm very comfortable with that remote management, creating a sense of culture and place an identity that's not tethered to a geographic thing. The so we were we were structurally prepared for that. I mean, maybe it's because we were, our roots are going out on site to customers and fixing problems, because that's where the problems were. But I think in many ways, even when we when we came back into an office space, and let me tell you, when everyone's in a room, and you get that electricity of, of everyone working together, and everyone's focused on the whiteboard, Boy, that's great. And that is still the most efficient way to get things done. When you're trying to strategize, brainstorm, that sort of thing. But from a managerial perspective, as long as everyone has a clear sense of their role and their purpose, the training is good. So you really focus on good onboarding. You know that first week, boy, you're setting the tone. And by the way, Mark, the first training that everyone has with within the company is with me to tell them the history of net friends. I walk them through where we've been and where we're stuff, man. And I closed the workweek the first work week with what's our values? And did you see him this week? Did you see him in action? Yeah. I'm in the role, and I just need to like, you know, accept it. But But yeah,
Mark 1:06:54
you're actually talking, even this description, what's going on? It's all about the core values, we got to set expectations. You know, and even from the integrator perspective, and what I kind of thought where you would go to, and I'm gonna take us there is scorecard, like, what's the clear? How do you went to somebody from home, you give them the this up on the accountability chart and tell them what's expected of them. Step one, you put them on the scorecard so that you can measure their activities and actions. And then if they've got projects are working on rocks or how you can manage that. And then you talk about training? Well, that's process that's a component in Eos. And so if you've got good scorecard, you've got a good accountability chart, and you've got a good clear processes, then you can manage people from home. And if you can't manage people from home, then you should think about those three things. Do we have?
John S. 1:07:40
You know what? The funny thing though, I have to make a confession. We're really bad at scorecards. We're working on it. Boy, we're working on it. And this is probably this is that that part that pushes me towards vision and away from being a good integrator.
1:07:54
I'm actually,
John S. 1:07:55
I'm actually not that great at the metrics side of it. I don't know why. I think it's like, you know, when I was, you know, studying science in college, what attracted me was biology, not because it had the least amount of math. And I love science, I love problem solving, and those sorts of things. But I, I think I'm more in the touchy feely space of problem solving. So we we've taken multiple whacks at scorecards, and have consistently found it to be the hardest thing I know, don't get me wrong, we come up with a number, we put the number up and we we go to that number, we hit it and if we don't hit it, it's an issue. We talk about it and we solve it. So we we do all the mechanics, because finding that perfect, measurable for each person. That is still a work in progress here. Now, we only adopted EOS, you know, two years ago. 12 if you count this year as being a pandemic year, but but we have we have struggled with that that's something that we need to work on. And maybe that's the part of me that needs to say you know what other people are probably better at this. And if I fully vacate that integrator space, and allow my team to work, they probably would do a better job identifying those scorecards getting the right scorecard the right number for each person and holding them accountable versus waiting for me to you know, have that one on one with them, and we hash it out. Well, there's a lie.
Mark 1:09:22
So let's talk about the scorecard a little bit. So there's there's two ends of the spectrum in the scorecard. And one is this the scorecard at the leadership team level, and that is the leadership team sees the health of the business overall, it's an aggregate sense of I look at these five to 15 numbers on a weekly basis. And I can relax because I know what's up. That's that's for the other end of the spectrum is I'm I'm an individual and I have a job and I don't want to wonder if I'm doing a good job based on the expression on John's face. I want to know I'm doing a good job based on the widgets I put in the box. The calls I made The quote I hit. And so one, two or three numbers that give the absolute pulse on this is a good job in general terms. And those are the two ends of the spectrum in between, we have departmental scorecards that give, again, this sense of team health, we want the leader of that team to see this team overall is healthy, these are aggregate indicators of usually we talk about weekly indicators, they should be leading indicators, activities, that when they happen, good stuff tends to happen. It's not our revenue, necessarily, sometimes we have a revenue in there, but it's you know, if we're, if we're trying to create revenue might be outbound calls or proposals submitted, or, you know, client visits or, you know, number of miles or an opposite of a health check of how many, you know, NPS scores below a certain number or whatever, whatever it might be. So it is a tricky element to get to those activities and and think about what do we need to have at the end of the month, and we go, step back until we get the first step of the process that we think is an opportunity that we might be missing if we don't keep our eyeballs on it.
John S. 1:11:02
Yeah, we've we've got the company and the team scorecards reasonably well defined, and and they're probably not the best ones that we'll have over the next few years. But they're pretty effective at getting a finger on the pulse. Is that that individual level, you know, what we do to compensate for not having the scorecard is we manage more, we talk more, and not that that's a bad thing, especially in this time. So that's
Mark 1:11:29
really especially right now. Yeah, yeah. If you get the time, you should have conversations and find out what's going on.
John S. 1:11:36
Right. But it's not it doesn't have the precision or the feeling of precision that a scorecard brings. And the scorecard as long as the scorecard isn't something that is, Oh, good, we have the scorecard. And we don't need to talk anymore. I definitely don't think that's healthy for management. But I do think it is a missing piece that would give people a sense of place. And, and, you know, I think that's, that's a, hey, everyone's got everyone to work in progress. Every business is a work in progress. And that's something that we as a leadership team know, that is a current gap, we are actively discussing it. And I'm certain that it's going to make the cut in our vision traction organizer for next year as one of the top goals. You know, we focus like on the employee value proposition this year. Next year, it's going to be that individual measurable? I think I know it's gonna make the cut, because it's such a need, and we're talking through it and it continues to bubble up to the top in our discussions is something we really need.
Mark 1:12:35
Yeah, so a couple things to think about that one is not the same across all departments. So rolling out to the entire company, like 50 out of 50 people within the measurable, that's tough if some of the departments don't have pains, compared to you know, some partners who really have pains and if you go to the team that's really got the pains, it's it can be helpful to say what matters most because you put them in the room and they'll put 15 metrics. Okay, cool. I got some we asked us to work with what what are the top three that if we really focused on we could feel good we were we were doing the right fundamental work. Because we have more metrics, I mean, departmentally, five to 15 metrics, same thing. But when you're getting to a specific problem, more metrics, is just more places to hide, and more reasons to say I couldn't have done the other one, you know, like, I was doing this one because I didn't do this one, because I was doing this other one. And so we got to, that's fine. But gosh, this is
John S. 1:13:30
the one. Were you watching some of our meetings? This definitely happened? Oh, yeah. Cuz it, that's the thing too about EOS is it provides a lot of structure and framework. And that's great. But it also, it there's a little wiggle room in playing there, where you have to kind of try it yourself with your own team and see what we call it hacking it. where, you know, people unintentionally can't help themselves. They hacked the system a little bit to make it through their week, you know, the lack of preparation. When you come into a meeting, you might hack it a little bit by, you know, not not confessing Yeah, I did not prepare for this. You like, Hey, I'm gonna say something pithy, or I'm gonna tell a joke, and Oh, good. They, they're laughing. And they heard me talk. And then I can they didn't ask me that tough question.
Mark 1:14:15
And here's a taco. Yeah. Want some more coffee? Yeah.
John S. 1:14:21
And it's, it's D, it's almost like a reflex in people's nature. And so you
Mark 1:14:26
know, but that's an important point. Because if people are prideful, and they care, and what you're describing is the willingness to kind of, it's important enough to these people to hit these metrics, that they're that they're embarrassed or are trying to get out of the limelight. What happens when you pay somebody on a metric, that means they're gonna lie to your face if they have to. And so don't do that. That's a whole soapbox and truly in other podcasts, and it's an entirety, I have a deep passion for what happens when you bend up. People for scorecard metrics in my short answer is it's a pile of unintended consequences. Don't do it, pay people for results. I'm not against variable compensation plans, I am very much for incentive for Win Win, we all win, we win, we all should win. And we should we should take the rewards together in some generalized fashion. I'm a big fan of that. But in terms of really getting to the truth of what's working, what's not just show people the facts, people want the do a good job, give them an opportunity to the truth and don't penalize them with money. For for a low score, you need to you need to know the low score. So you can fix the low score, if you pay them for the high score, they're gonna hide the low score, and you're never gonna find out what's going on anyway,
John S. 1:15:41
true, it isn't the scorecard supposed to measure you your effectiveness at doing your job, or the effectiveness of the team collaborating together to do the thing the team is there for I mean, so yeah.
Mark 1:15:52
So like, if you pay people on a profit share, because you won the business, he kept the business, that's an end game result. And that makes people want to know, as fast as possible. If a client's unhappy, like you should pay people, you shouldn't pay them. But like, if you're gonna pay them, pay them for bad news, make them pull it out faster, because that's what ultimately affects the goal not and the sooner you can find out the bad things, the sooner you can fix them. The more profit you have, the more you grow.
John S. 1:16:18
That's a huge part of us the identifying issues and staring at their ugly cells until you can figure out a way to break them down and solve it.
Mark 1:16:26
Well, that's true. And you don't need any more barriers. Because just being honest with yourself is hard enough, don't penalize people for it with monetary punishment. We need to do great work with images with vulnerability, and being open and honest. And when they set the bar for excellence super high, people want to bust their ass when you've got a high performance team. And you say, and you just show the numbers, man, people don't want to learn numbers, and they want to go kick ass and they want to do it authentically, they want to be on a winning team. And NBC said
John S. 1:16:57
it. You said it. I can't I can't top that. Yep, you're absolutely right.
Mark 1:17:03
Thank you, man. I'm passionate about subjects. And that's why that's how we got got together on this because you know, we have a common perspective on high performance teams. So we've covered a ton. Indeed. And I'd love to Is there anything else you feel like we want to add to this conversation you want to add to this conversation?
John S. 1:17:22
No, I mean, this is fantastic. I feel like we've covered a lot of ground. If anyone is, you know, wanting to hear me talk for another 30 minutes. I can't imagine that. So probably do everyone a favor and say this is this is good. This is good.
Mark 1:17:37
Well, so with that, given all you've learned, given all we've experienced over the last nine months, what is your passionate plea to entrepreneurs right now?
John S. 1:17:47
Oh, gosh, this may be too touchy feely. But I can't help myself from saying this. I've seen so much, especially in the last several years how important an awareness of mental health is, you know, having having 50 plus people 54 people at net friends, I've certainly seen, you know, just by odds, people struggling with depression and anxiety and things like that. And one of the things that I've had to temper with the right person, right seat, is making sure that when I'm making those assessments and thinking about people, I'm also asking good questions in one on ones and thinking about whether they are having anything going on with their own self in their health or in their home space that might be interfering, and accounting for that. It doesn't mean that you allow someone to underperform and have, you know, their home life bleed into work indefinitely. But that awareness that life is messy, and those around us are struggling, I think, you know, COVID really made that really cute. But we had, we had a pretty surprising thing happened to us where one of our young employees had depression, we didn't know and they took their own life back in November of 2016. And that's something that you know, it's November, it's that time and every year, there's a mental health awareness week in October and every year we go to the walk for hope and and remember, Bill and, and you such a wonderful person. There's no reason why he should have succumbed to that. But it woke all of us up to the fact that there's there's people in our organization that are struggling. And when we don't normalize and talk about mental health issues and incorporate that into our one on ones really check in with folks. It's quiet and underground until it really manifests itself in a major way with folks. I've found that by having those conversations being really open with it. I've had multiple people since that thing happened with Bill. I've had multiple people say you know, honestly, thanks to the culture and support Poor net friends, I didn't go down that dark path and I was going to, you know, I don't want to, I don't wanna get too cheesy, but they're like they say things like, you know, I think I think being here at net friends helped save my life. That's, that's something I would my passionate plea is, I know we're focused on the business, I know, we're focused on profits and growth, and culture and all those different things. But don't forget about the real problems and challenges some of the folks are having, and make sure that you have an environment where those can come out and be surfaced and discussed, and, and it's not stigmatized, that's my passionate plea, just remember that. Those that that there are people out there that may have quiet struggles, and mental health is one of those things you usually can't see. And so I really just encourage everyone to just really consider that and think about that, I hope nobody goes through what we went through losing bill, I don't think anyone is, you know, that's not guaranteed that that's an outcome for anybody else. But if you have those conversations, and you might be heading down that path with one of your staff, gosh, it feels so amazing to be able to, to to give them the support they need at a time they need it, to have your entire culture, be there for them. And that's my passionate plea, please, please think about that. in whatever way you can and incorporate that into into your daily walk in the business.
Mark 1:21:23
Man, I love that. It's such a beautiful thought. And I don't think it's too touchy feely a little too touchy feely at all. for a lot of reasons I'm learning the best visionaries are really interested in inner work. And it seems like especially in a world where a lot of physical labor businesses I work with it really, we got to have these conversations. And what I heard what you said is don't forget this game, the game has completely changed. The questions you asked last year are not enough, you have to find out what's going on outside of those walls. And I would add some dimension to what you said and everything you said, I agree 100%. But don't forget about yourself. As a visionary leader, the load is heavier for everyone, everyone, even people whose businesses are doing really well, that doesn't mean there's not a weight of uncertainty, and impact of the new life and a new world and spousal support and all the things that go with that. So take care of yourself, be compassionate for yourself and get help if you need it in little ways. And I'm not saying call the support line, I'm saying like, you know, if you're having a tough day, you know, get some help. That's it, this is a very reasonable time to have your friends and support in any smaller, big way. Somehow, I love that. That's beautiful. And I appreciate you kind of bringing us home on that. So if somebody wants to continue the conversation with you, how do they find you?
John S. 1:22:44
Yeah, so anyone can email me at john s at net friends calm? And I'm up on LinkedIn. And yeah, I'm basically those are the two best ways. I'm all over email. I think Sammy, who works with you, Mark will know that I'm basically I don't want to say I treat email, like a chat tool. But I almost do. I'm always on. So
Mark 1:23:11
that's good, man. So this has been great. I really, you know, we talked about how these conversations unfold as they unfold. But I was really, really inspired by what he said I learned a lot in the conversation. And your time, and your experiences have been a gift and I'm very grateful. Thank you.
John S. 1:23:26
Thank you, Mark. I'm taking a lot of your scorecard ideas to heart and and I feel your passion. I'm gonna be listening to that multiple times. Because that's where I need help. And you you're coming through with some real thought and passion there.
Mark 1:23:40
Well, I hope to help you know, like, it's no joke, I kick the podcast off as I believe everyone should feel and control their life in the entrepreneurial world. The entrepreneurs path to that is getting some control of the business. And so I'm obsessed with it. So if I can help in some small way, it really is a privilege. Well, thank you, man. That's it for today. Those listening please don't forget to subscribe, share with friends get this in the hands of the people who can use it because it's not doing them any good if it's just just on the shelf somewhere. So providing feedback, we'd love it good and bad. Anything you've got for us. We love it. We learn from it, all of it. And we will see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me. Mark Henderson.
VO 1:24:19
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe. Go to lear.cc