Josh Lavine is a Holistic Personal Development Coach with a focus on leadership and teamwork. He interweaves psychology, spirituality, and developmental modalities to help you cultivate self-mastery across all domains of life. He also facilitates immersive workshops on the Enneagram. Josh graduated from Princeton in 2010 with a BA in English and Theater. He meditates daily and plays piano.
We spend a lot of time working on our business that we forget to work on the most important aspect of it - ourselves. Josh Lavine joins us on today's podcast to discuss the Enneagram, a valuable system for holistic inner development. We discover different Enneagram types, their specific vulnerabilities and defense mechanisms, and how you can use this information to not only gain clarity about yourself but to also communicate and connect with other people better.
3:22 - Leaders who are the most committed to the success of their business are also the most committed to gaining clarity about who they are on the inside.
10:21 - The Enneagram and its role in Inner Work
20:17 - When you push hard, people get defensive. When you listen and ask questions, you can influence other people better.
34:29 - How the Enneagram decodes our ability to interact with people who aren't exactly like us.
41:27 - Deep conversations don't necessarily arise out of social situations. You have to intentionally seek or start deep conversations.
48:32 - Different types in the Enneagram and their vulnerabilities
1:01:16 - Enneagram types that most entrepreneurs fall into
1:12:07 - The Enneagram doesn't put you in a box - it shows you the box you are already in and the way out
1:21:46 - Josh's passionate plea to entrepreneurs
GET IN TOUCH:
Mark Leary:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
Josh Lavine:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-lavine-65bab087/
https://www.joshlavine.com/
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
You're Doing It Wrong - Josh Lavine
Wednesday, November 25, 2020
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
enneagram, people, vulnerability, good, type, person, important, world, leaders, understand, feel, relationships, entrepreneurs, life, ability, leadership, threes, anagram, question, eights
SPEAKERS
Josh, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson, Mary and my name is Mark and I have a passion, you should feel in control your life. And so what I do is I help you get control of your business. And part of how I do that is by letting you listen in on a conversation between two people who have a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world. And they're talking about a subject you already know something about. But this time, we're digging a little deeper, we're getting into the weeds and the nuts and bolts to get the details that you need to understand better, so you can get what you want. And you can unlock those challenges and break through the ceiling and get what you want out of your business, and ultimately out of your life. So today, the subject is couldn't be more appropriate. But before I get in there, I do want to remind you subscribe, share, Comments, feedback, it's so important. I'm so grateful for everybody who's given us feedback so far, it really helps us out a lot. And so thank you for everybody who's done that so far. So our guest today, Joshua vine is a coach who is really obsessed with this idea of leadership and works with leadership, and high growth, high performance leaders who want to be their best get out of their own way, and wants to really help the leadership team go to the next level and really make an impact. And where he specializes is some of this difficult, soft work weird, weird things that uncomfortable for some of us who like to stay in the tangible, this inner work that involves spirituality and psychology and other things. And so let's tackle that. And I'd love to welcome my friend Joshua line. Great to have you here, man.
Josh 01:36
What's up, Mark? Thanks so much. That's really, you know, it's funny is I listen to podcasts and hear the intros. And for some reason, I've had this idea that sometimes they're pre recorded. So it's so fun to actually watch you do that live?
Mark 01:49
Well, sometimes people record them in the end. I go right in and like, let's just be done. Get it right.
Josh 01:59
Yeah. Well, thanks, man. I'm really glad to be here. Well,
Mark 02:02
I'm glad to have you here. Because I do think this idea of inner work is important. And I have been surprised, frankly, that I work with a lot of leaders, and especially visionary entrepreneurs. And and sometimes I feel like the subject of inner work and spirituality, and even inner psychological, difficult, intangible work seems like outside the interest of a lot of visionary leaders and entrepreneurs, but the ones I work with who are most committed to their own success, are really actually doing that work. And they're very interested and very curious. And so you wouldn't see it from the outside, you wouldn't see a lot of the visionary entrepreneurs I work with who work maybe in a manufacturing business or distribution, where it's very blue collar, and you sit them down, and they say, Well, actually, I'm really trying to work on myself. And I'm trying understand, you know, what matters most to me and what of my self defeating, and self limiting beliefs. And so, you know, this is a difficult time for a lot of leaders a difficult time for a lot of, for almost everybody on the planet, in terms of dealing with pandemic and the United States, we're in the middle of a very contentious election. So stress is high. being your best on the inside is really important. So tell us a little bit about your journey. And, you know, how did you how did you get here? What Why is this work so important? And kind of tell us about that?
Josh 03:19
Wow. Well, first of all, just want to say that I am, I'm really resonates this point you're making that the visionary entrepreneurs and leaders who are most committed to the success of their business are also most committed to getting clarity about who they really are on the inside what's going on in their inner worlds. And I just think that is it's so important. It's really it's foundational. It's the foundational piece for leaders. So I just think it's, I think it's essential. I'm glad you highlighted that. Yeah, my journey. Hmm. So I stumbled upon in our work in a pretty roundabout or maybe serendipitous way. I stumbled upon in your work without intention. It kind of hit me in the face accidentally. So what I mean by that is I was when I was younger, like in college, and after I was always I would say about myself, I'm always looking for the next best paradigm. And looking for the next. The next way to level up how I see the world what am I missing? What am I not seeing? And that was around the time I was a professional piano player was playing piano to doing Piano Bar. There's a whole story around that. But when I was living in St. Louis, I was I was a manager for the first time this was about six years ago. And a friend of mine said, Hey Josh, I just took this class on a thing called the enneagram. And I think you might like it. And I was like, Oh, cool. Yeah. personality types. I knew that the enneagram was a system of personality types. For those of us who don't know what it is, it's kinda like Myers Briggs. But it's, in my opinion, it's much deeper. I didn't know that at the time. But she was like, yeah, this class is pretty cool. It's like this weekend workshop, you go. And it's, it's taught by this guy, he kind of runs his own little thing. And I was like, sure personality types that will make me a better leader, if I understand people a little better. What I didn't expect was that I would go and it would, it would completely change my life. And I know that's a loaded statement. So
Mark 05:46
well worth worth unpacking. I mean, it's dramatic enough to Okay, there's something behind this. But so yeah, what does that mean?
Josh 05:52
Yeah. So the enneagram. First of all, that's that I would call that my specialty, or kind of my, my area of main expertise and thing that I, it's, it's foundational to my coaching work, and also to my own inner work. But yeah, when I discovered the enneagram, so just a quick, like 32nd. Crash Course enniaa is a Greek prefix, it means nine grand mean shape. enneagram is a nine sided shape. Like pentagram is a five sided shape. enneagram is nine sided shape. And the enneagram is a sort of a cult looking, it's not actually a cult, but it kind of has a mysterious looking symbol. And there are nine personality types arranged around the symbol. And there are a lot of ways to talk about each of the types. What I learned is, is that I'm a type three. And so yeah, allow us to talk about the types, a really convenient way to talk about each of the types is what is their basic fear and basic desire. And the basic fear of type three is that they feel that they are worthless, and the basic desire is to feel valuable. So threes tend to work really hard, it tend to orient almost instinctively, to what is valued in their environment, and then are more than any other type extremely efficient at becoming that. And so
Mark 07:17
I'm gonna slow that down a little bit, because I think that we talk about inner work. And we talk about fear, right? The statement, he said, right, there can be very challenging to someone as a leader, who is feeling like they shouldn't be afraid of anything, or at least rarely, or they feel like they should have command or their fears. And when you say something like, this model helps people identify their most basic fear and their most basic desires. That's not that's not true that work even in and of itself. That's, that's, that's seriously profound work for you, for you to even have identify where you live, you just kind of threw that out there like I was that my basic fear is fear that I'm where I was worthless. Like, that was, that's a lot, right. It's a it's a heavy encounter.
Josh 08:04
Yeah, it's a big deal. And what's incredible about the enneagram, I'm just going to make this statement and, and if you engage with the enneagram, later, then I think you'll come to see the truth of this. But the enneagram, one of the core statements, the intervals, that we are all driven by a more or less consistent inner restlessness, that if you follow that all the way down to the bottom is based in a basic fear. Or there's really two ways to look at a basic fear or basic desire. There's sort of inverses of each other. Okay, it
Mark 08:37
was just their polar. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. One pushes one repels you want to track so you that is the end? Yeah. Like for instance, if you're afraid of being
Josh 08:46
I don't know, destroyed, then your desire is going to be I want to become invincible. If you're afraid of being worthless, then you want to be valuable. That's the polarity. Right? Yeah. And so. But this, these fears are so deeply embedded that and sort of installed at an extremely, extremely early age, that they shape your entire personhood and your life. And so, yes, it's a challenging statement to leader certainly, and a delicate thing to assist someone to discover. But the, the power of it, and the promise of it is that it's because it's so essential. Because it's so central to who a person is it's incredibly illuminating at a really every level of the person's life. So
Mark 09:48
you know, what did that reveal to you when you encountered this idea? Or even just kind of made me stretch it out? Because I do think it's really easy to kind of tell the story and back and reverse like, well, so so I encounter the anagram not discovered I was afraid of being worthless. And I'm like, Well, that was that wasn't like 30 minutes that might have been like two years. So how did that first feel? And then how did that sort of unfold in the cliffnotes version, but still kind of giving do gravatar, gravitas to the steps have been unfolding for you?
Josh 10:21
Yeah, well, actually, let me back up for just one second and say, here's the, here's the thing about the enneagram, is when you learn the enneagram, you learn it in totality, you don't just learn about your type, it's incredibly illuminating to learn about your type, it blows up your or at least, if you're new to inner work, then generally, it's extremely revealing a lot of things that you either didn't know about yourself, or that you were afraid to admit to yourself. And it's not also just about the shadow and the ugly stuff that you're hiding from yourself. It's also about your light, and your virtues. And these and kind of what you could endure is very, very good at showing you not just the shadow, but also your life. And here's like the other, like main, huge deal of the enneagram is that you don't just learn about your time you learn about the others, and the aha moments that you have about like your mom, your sister, your co founder, your colleagues, your teammates, it's like, oh, my God, I never understood why that person does that. It always drives me nuts. But now I understand. And that's a huge deal. Because the answer the insight is there, the intagram is a tool for insight, and compassion. That's as succinct way that I can put it. But what happens like, when people get really frustrated with another person, most of the time, what they're saying is like, I just don't understand why a person would do that I just don't understand can't even fit it into my mental model of the world, why a person would act the way that a certain person is acting. And then you opened the enneagram textbook, and you read about it. And it's so precise, at least if you're reading a good book. It's like, Oh, my God, oh, my God, it's everything is so clear. And so that is so useful. Just in terms of I mean, that has it that has immediate, immediate use. It's like, you know, like, for instance, if you're doing this with your co founder, you discover each of your enneagram types, and then immediately there's a there's an incredible conversation that opens up. It's like, Oh, I didn't realize you're an eight. That's why you're so comfortable confrontation. I'm a nine. That's why I'm conflict avoidant. Oh, now we have this sort of translation layer for each other's psyches? How does that work?
Mark 12:31
With you know, doing the work yourself? As opposed to bring somebody into the process? Do you have to have somebody else kind of studying the enneagram? Like, if you want to have a better relationship with your co founder? Do you need them to do their work? So they can? Do they can provide their half? Or can you kind of do your work and then use it? To understand my question,
Josh 12:50
I do it? Yeah, it's a that's a really good question. No, you don't need any anyone. To do that with you. Let me put it this way, inner work is a deeply personal journey. It has to be done. Just because it's a, it can be so difficult. It has to be done in community, you have to be supported in your inner work by like minded people, or by or by a coach or by a group of like, if you're going to workshop, whoever is in the workshop. It's incredibly powerful. If you do it with another person, like if you and your husband or your wife do it together, that's really powerful you and your co founder together, then, of course, that's, that's a big deal. Because then you're installing the same language together. So you can have the same words to describe that's, that's really, really powerful. That's so kind of 10 x is the impact in terms of your ability to relate to that person. But like I, when I discovered the enneagram, I was leading my band in St. Louis, and nobody else on my team knew the anagram but it was immediate, it immediately softened me towards them. Because it, it helped me understand that. Like, for instance, when one person wouldn't prepare for rehearsal, it's, it's not because they were just being deliberately disobedient, or disrespecting me, it was because of a whole way that their nervous system was structured that allowed me to approach them in a totally different way. So there, there is a big, it was a big deal. For me, it was very useful to know what was going on in the person's head. And I didn't need them to know either. I didn't need them to have the same language eventually, because I was so enthusiastic about it. They both learned about it. And then we have that common language and it became even more useful because then they knew about me. And so that Yeah, that was really helpful too.
Mark 14:45
So you were able to bring so I guess, to a second here that you've got your bandmate shows up, I'm unprepared, unrehearsed, and you're like, well, I'm more compassionate because I understand their perspective. Well, that's fine, except that what we really need is a good outcome. I need it. prepared a bandmate? Yes. So you're able to bring the best out in them get what you want? Or can you communicate better? How does that play out?
Josh 15:09
Yeah. So here's, this is the Yeah. So it's such a great question for so I love it. I love this question. And it's, it's very, let's just unpack this for a second. So most managers learn tools like the enneagram, or the Myers Briggs with a secret wish and I was no different. I learned the enneagram specifically what the secret thought that I was going to understand other people and then be able to get them to do what I wanted better. Okay, that was what that was the motivation for me taking that class. And here's the things that people generally speaking don't like to be told what to do.
Mark 15:56
And well, none nonetheless, then entrepreneurial leadership, it sure is the opportunity to decline the invitation is always present.
Josh 16:07
Yeah, most of the time, what I experienced, like a huge blind spot I see a lot of leaders have with respect to kind of getting getting their their teammates to do stuff, is it's kind of like if you ever walked a large dog. And like, I used to have this huge Standard Poodle named Rafi and we would go around block. And if he didn't want to go in a trip in a particular direction, he would sit down on the pavement, and he would look at me. And it didn't matter how hard I pulled back, the harder I would pull on his leash, the more he would lean back, and just like plant his feet, and be like, ah, we're not going that way. And that's, you know, that's kind of what happens. A lot of times, it's like, I want a person, you know, I want my friend not gonna say his name. But it's like, I, you know, I wanted my friend to prepare for rehearsal, and he wouldn't, and the more I, you know, came down on him and said, you know, all the things you would expect me to say, like, bro, you got a pair of rehearsal, you're a musician, or like, it's kind of like, you know, Auntie, it's like, this is table stakes. You got you got to show up for bear barisal. The more I, you know, hemmed and hawed about it, the more he dug in his heels, because I was approaching him sort of in an aggressive way. What actually happens, though, is that when you approach someone with curiosity, you sort of start asking questions like, you know, tell me what's going on for you, like, what's, when I say, early? You wouldn't when it comes time to prepare for rehearsal, what happens for you internally, what's going on? And then there's a conversation, it's like, well, actually, I, you know, I've never liked to be told what to do. I was I hated homework in school. And one of the reasons I became a musician, so I didn't have to listen to people tell me what to do. And it's like, Okay, well, that's a whole, that's a pillar of your personality. That's, that's central to your nervous system. And, and now, me yelling at you to prepare for rehearsal is just retriggering a past, like, call it a trauma, or at the very least, you know, if trauma is not your kind of language or ballgame. It's just like, I'm doing the thing that you are trying, like to avoid. Yeah, you're
Mark 18:17
so you've built a lot of defenses you have programmed to react automatically, very efficiently to anybody trying to get you to do that.
Josh 18:25
Yeah, you know, the image that comes to me is like, um, I don't know, this is a good analogy or not, but it's kind of like, I just imagine a kind of like a flower bud that's just closed up. And the more you try to peel apart, its petals. It's like, it's like, Ah, I'm staying closed. But if you just like,
Mark 18:52
shine some light on
Josh 18:53
it. Nice. And why not? Yeah, isn't there an Aesop's fable? I think there's like a, there's like, Oh, my God, this is actually this is it? It's the one where it's, I'm going to I can't recite this but the gist is the the wind and the sun. Have a, an argument? And they say, I'm stronger than you are. No, I'm sorry. You are. And and the wind says, Okay, well, I'm stronger than you or I can get I can blow this this jacket off of this woman. Hmm. And so the wind blows and the woman just holds her jacket, tighter, buttons it up and gets all you know, cuz she's freezing. And, and then the sun's like, Alright, my turn, shines light. And then the woman's like, Oh, that's so nice. And then just take your jacket off. So this is this is the deal is that humans have their own autonomous action. And you can't control another person you can only influence and the most powerful influence is listening, curiosity, compassion. And the enneagram unlocks that for you, because it's because it helps you jump over that first hurdle of like getting to a place where you can understand or at least begin to understand another person.
Mark 20:17
Okay, so I'm still actually kind of digesting that story, because that, to me is a powerful leadership metaphor. Because I do think as leaders and managers, we get frustrated, we go in in the meeting, we go to the one on one, and what do we do when we're frustrated? we blow like crazy. That's right. Yeah, you know, and it's like, everybody goes into defensive mode, and they're in this practical protection for themselves. The sunlight is about being seen. And it's about this curiosity and questions. And you know, when I teach an EOS, if you're going to have a meeting, you need to make sure if you're mostly listening, you're mostly asking questions. But I think the metaphor of like, it's let them be seen, let them bloom, let them contribute, let all of their best assets be seen as opposed to putting them on the defense. And so that sunlight analogy, I think that's really helpful. So I really appreciate you sharing that.
Josh 21:09
Yeah, totally, totally. The other thing about this, too, is just to bring this back to inner work is that you might ask yourself the question, why are you blowing so hard? what's what's, what's happening inside you? What's at stake for you? And this is where you, this is where you turn inward? And let me just let me give this example in terms of myself, so when I'm yelling at my, my friend to prepare for rehearsal, what's happening inside me? Well, I am. There's a surface, which is, I can identify that. There's just a general sense of frustration, like I gave it, I gave an instruction and it wasn't obeyed. So that that's just annoying. But deeper and a lot more important. Is that, okay, cool. So you don't prepare for rehearsal. That means now, I have to be part of a band that I'm not musically proud of. And, okay, why, why is that so important to me, okay, because I want to be part of a, let's see, let's go take this further. If you take this all the way down to the root of it, it's your, what we're going to end up at is my basic fear from my Instagram site, which is I want to, I want to be valuable, I want the people who come into the bar to admire our band for musicianship, and I certainly want our my boss to think that I'm doing a good job leading this group to, you know, be the best band that they can be
Mark 23:01
so answered as part of your identity, just part of your identity. So Customer service is, you know, if, you know, as an entrepreneur leader in your like, your customer service rep, your sales rep, or product goes out kind of kind of broken. It's not a good product. It's not at all, it's a it's an extension of the identity of the founder, all Not always, but a lot of times.
Josh 23:21
Yeah, that's right. And the, you know, the, the biggest irony, and the kind of the cosmic joke of the whole thing, which I just laugh at every time, not in the moment, because it's harrowing, but afterwards is that Oh, yeah, that thing that I cared about so much, right. Um, everything that I was doing was actually preventing that thing from happening. Like, and letting go of the outcome, quote, unquote, is actually the thing that allows me to relax enough to then bring on a different set of skills to get that outcome to happen. Like in less abstract language, I just mean, what I wanted was to play a song well, and I was trying to, you know, yell at a bunch of teammates to like get their act together. And that was actually sabotaging me from and the route the route to success was actually relax caring about the song for long enough that I could care about the people and and then when they felt that my care for them was genuine, then we have a common ground to work from together to produce a song.
Mark 24:42
So I think that statement bears repeating, because it's, it's a lot of work up to like that was a couple of words, you know, let go of the of the outcomes, the work product, these tangible things, which is can we measure them enough to care about the people who are a part of this and save About that, is it always come back down to the people? Does that sort of the essential part of the formula?
Josh 25:06
That's a good question. I don't know that. I'm going to shy away from the word always, just because I think it's smart not to speak in absolutes. But, um, I think that yeah, it's, it's certainly very important to think about the people, what is what is management? It's, it is, what are you managing? Or what are you leading, you know, what, what is leadership? leadership is a relational competence. It's, um, it I, there are so many, like, tortured, definitions of what leadership is, and, you know, there's like vision setting, and you're here, the guy who, you know, sees, sees the path, and then four does that, whatever. But the fact of the matter is that if you're a visionary entrepreneur, or leader or a band, or whatever it is that you're doing, you've got people, and you can't do the thing yourself. And leadership is accomplishing goals through the work of other people. And so if, you know, comes kind of comes down to like, what's your, how are you approaching the people? What's
Mark 26:27
Yeah, I heard some point. And I repeat repeated this a lot lately, like, lately, and I can't recall where I first heard this, but it was that there are essentially a little bit of a polarity about how people assess value or ascribe value growing up, meaning, some people are kind of taught that value comes from being good at something, it comes from knowledge, it comes from internal intrinsic asset, you know, like, my, my education, my my ability to do math, my ability to make a table, my ability, and it's very this very internal skill increasing, and that's the way you contributed to bigger and bigger level. And then there is another paradigm that people are taught that is, the value comes from people and their relationships with people and that they're in it, it's really about having a better support network of sites of sorts, whether it be your close family or friends. And and what I what I thought was interesting about it, is it is it is polar, and that there's kind of you kind of taught one of those is primary, and you get good at one, and you get bad at the other, or at least don't have the same kind of emphasis on it. And I've sort of found later relatively recently that I think I was programmed with the first one. And it has been hard for me to prioritize. The people as primal is like that's the first and most valuable asset that should always go to as opposed to be smart, be capable, and also try to find a way to include the people. And so that slight subtlety of the order of this is like no, no, if you really want to make a multiplying effect, impact, it can only be done through people, you are only going to have kind of a linear ability to grow your own internal assets. And that's, that's kind of big disillusionment to realize those skills are great, and very valuable, but they don't contain the multiplier effect that a lot of people are trying to get as leaders were bringing people into the equation does.
Josh 28:22
Yeah. Um, I think it was Margaret Wheatley, in her book leadership in the new science that said something to the effect that the the fundamental unit of production is not a person, it's a relationship. Something I think I just butchered it'd be useful to like, actually look that quote up, but that's, you get the gist of it. Here's another here's another way to put it. There's a fantastic book about organizations, called reinventing organizations by Frederic laloux, which I just think is a must read for any leader. Extremely thought provoking. And there's a story of a kind of like a machine shop production shop, and they have this value that value is created on the shop floor. In other words, what the customer is paying for is the output of they're paying for the parts that this machine shop is creating. But those parts don't get made, unless the relationships on the floor are strong. And that's the key. So there's this Yeah, I often find that there is a when we have our sights on the on the ends. We can lose we can lose touch with the act the means that will actually be Was there?
Mark 30:01
Yeah, I did it all the time. I mean, I think it's really true. I think I say this a lot that Stephen Covey taught us to begin with the end in mind. And I see visionary leaders and I see myself doing this all the time and have to work against this and that I joke about it, I begin with the end. It's not the end in mind, like I skip all the steps leading up to the end, I just tried to start to build the thing at the end, which I haven't earned the right to do yet, I haven't learned what I need to learn, I don't have the things in place, I don't have the mechanisms. So really, what helps me be most effective is to slow it down and bring people into the conversation and say, like, what am I missing? How do we do this? Who can help who's the best person and really deconstruct the thought process and the plan, so we can actually construct it in the right order, as opposed to just sort of starting right there at the end? and losing track of all those valuable ingredients that they are so critical to create that vision?
Josh 30:57
Yeah, totally. Yeah, one of the thing too, I mean, we're, we're sort of talking about in this space, like just put some words to it kind of like tasks versus relationships. And you know, if you're an entrepreneur, chances are your door. And another sort of coachy, or inner work phrase that we would use versus doing versus being relationships tend to be in the being space tasks, or in the doing space. And it can be very counterintuitive, that in order to do more or do better, we have to, in some we have to be with other people in a different way. Does that make sense? That might have been kind of vague and abstract. But
Mark 31:42
well, here's I heard what you said, I think very tangibly it's, there's a patient factor that entrepreneurs like myself Don't, don't want to automatically go to it is you say doers. And I do think there's I think most entrepreneurs are some form of doer, but there's a huge difference between somebody who just goes to work with expecting to kind of go quickly and make something manifest very quickly. And somebody who has the patience to craft a machine, an organization, a living breathing entity, that takes that is supposed to, you know, needs to be healthy and needs care and feeding along the way that it is, it's a totally different approach to cultivating a garden as opposed to building shed, right? That you're like, we're just gonna pound this out and get done. And the faster I work, the better is going to be. And you know, I can knock this out with more and more effort, and we're good. But then there's things that just take time, like, you know, plants, they got to grow, they need the sunlight, you got to have all this patients and an organization and relationships. They're the same, they you can't, will the garden to grow faster, you have to cultivate it by continually being showing patience and observing it.
Josh 32:51
Yeah. You know, I'm sensing that we're moving in this direction of like, Okay, so how do you tangibly cultivate a better and deeper relationships with the people you work with? And
Mark 33:06
what kind of thing that takes us back to the question I'm just this close to asking is like, take us around the enneagram a little bit and show some more examples. But I do think because this question started with, how essential are people to this? And I think I kind of answered that with like, I think we're, I think we're clear that we're talking about, even in its most tactical sense building a business. And never mind this leading to a better life. But we know the data on both of those. And that is a business is only as good as your ability to enroll other people in it simply is that that's it. That's that's that's a, that's not debatable. We've got the date on that. happy life. It's about people. It's about relationships. We've got the data on that too. Even people who are who are introverts, and it's not about mislead more people, it's about the right people, for those for those type of people. But the people I think, are indisputably the critical ingredient. And something like the enneagram gives us people who are struggling to decode the I get along with some people well and not along with other people. I think that's a very common feeling and relieves a lot of entrepreneurs to think, well, I just need more people like me. And then you get somebody like you and you're like, nope, that doesn't work. I hate people like me. Who do we need? And how do we decode them? And how do we work with them? So maybe walk us through the intagram? A little bit of how, how this decodes our ability to interact with people who aren't exactly like us.
Josh 34:29
Yeah. Wow. Okay. I'm just pausing taking a deep breath to go. Okay, so going around the enneagram. Um, yeah, let's, let's go for it. Um, and then actually, there's something that I think is really important, that's that I want to talk about too in this space. And that is the concept of psychological safety and actually, That's useful context. Before we talk about the anagram, I think that's really important. So you know, um, so, um, I think a lot about team building, and how do we get people to be closer, and to have fuller, more trusting more richer relationships? And, um, I, I, I laugh when I Well, it's To me, it's a little sad when I see that there's like a trend and team there was at the very least, like sort of old school team building was like, let's go to you know, we're going to do a retreat, we're going to go to a ropes course we're going to skydive together, we're gonna do some activity. It's going to be it's called team bonding, right? We're going to go to a bar and have some drinks, whatever. And
Mark 35:55
everybody likes to make fun of the trust ball.
Josh 35:57
That's right. Yeah, trust.
Mark 36:01
Here's the out of that person, I'm gonna drop them.
Josh 36:03
Yeah. Here's the thing about about that, I mean, those can be fun. And to the extent that they're effective, and my view is that it if error effective at all, it's just lucky. Because Because what what activities like that, if it's just like, oh, we're gonna get people closer together, we're just gonna throw him in a bowling alley and have people like have a night of, quote unquote, fun together. What you're neglecting is the, the setting up of the rules of engagements, where it where we sort of actually talk about how are we going to speak? And how are we going to listen to each other? Here's the deal is that the normal crashing bang of group dynamics are not conducive to people revealing their deaths. It's just, it just doesn't happen in a normal group setting when you're doing an activity, or even if you're just talking around a lunch table. You know, normal socializing does not invite people to reveal the kinds of things and listen to other people in the kinds of ways that actually produce more closeness. It's just not it's just, it doesn't happen that way. What does that what what does produce more closeness is when you sort of take a breath, and you set up an intentional set of rules of engagement, for instance, like, well, like, it's funny to me, you know, some, some of the most effective team bonding activities are, are so hilariously simple. Here's like, here's a good one. You take, let's say, there's five people on a team, you take two hours, you set up some rules, you say, all right, for the next two hours. Nobody is to interrupt anyone else. There's going to be no advising of anyone on anything, no one's going to try to fix anyone or anything, anyone is allowed to say anything that they wish. And you just give people 15 minutes each to speak on a prompt, like, tell us about what's going on in your life. Or tell us about a moment in your childhood that made you proud. Or, or tell us about, you know, what was it like, tell us tell us your life story? What's your life story? It's amazing to me how many it's just this is incredible to me is how many leaders I know. founders, leaders, managers, who don't know some of the most fundamental aspects of the, of the lives of the people they work with. And yeah, they just, it's funny. It's just you get to work. You say, you know, a person is hired, you say, hey, john, or Sally, welcome aboard. And then here's how we do things around here. All right, this is the data we're looking at. And here's the tasks and off you go and see it tomorrow in the meeting. And there's just not that sit, there's not the care taken to really invite the whole person to kind of land and reveal themselves and be and become integrated into a kind of soul safe, psychologically safe community.
Mark 39:28
So what's the difference? So I heard I can imagine is in the social setting, you've got, you know, your group of between three and 30 people show up. And what you learn about people is new and a lot of times, but it's exactly what they've already gotten comfortable sharing with people there. They put on their, their clothes, their uniform, and they're gonna see exactly what they're already comfortable showing. If you change the game, and you say, like, we're not going to necessarily take you someplace crazy, but we all are going to share the same thing. And so you You're not going to get to opt in or out of this, you are going to tell us something in this space, like, Where are you from? We know what what kinds of foods do you like. And even if that's basic, it's not obvious and in is you're gonna cause people to kind of meet somewhere in some sort of common ground. Is that kind of the difference? Or tell me more about why that's so different?
Josh 40:21
Yeah. So the reason it's different is because when there is, there's so much hidden in the shadows of our inner world. And there there are such, there's such beauty and mystery and, and richness there. And in when we sit when we just sort of normally socialize with people, or if I say, Hey, Mark, which favorite color, you're like, I'm, you know, red, and I'm like, haha, that's awesome. I like red too. And we Pat each other on the back. That's not really relationship forming. There's a, I mean, it's, it's cute, it's fun. Maybe we have an inside joke. But it's not. Like, what makes you feel close to the person really, truly what makes you feel close with the person, it's like, when you know that you can trust that person with kind of anything that you could say. So there's a depth factor. So
Mark 41:27
it sounds like you're shopping in a social situation, you the depth is there's a safety is no one's going to put themselves at risk in most cases, or at least maybe somebody will. But not, there's certainly a guarantee that everybody's not, you know, not 100% people are going to create a depth conversation. So you're saying that if we we do want to have intentional depth creation conversations, and if we don't at least agree to that? We're very low likelihood of creating
Josh 41:55
that yeah, that is precisely what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's so okay. That's, I think, important context, because I don't think that the anagram is useful unless you establish an environment of psychological safety. And that's, I know, that's a that's a dramatic statement. What I mean by that is, if psychological safety is one of those, it's one of those concepts that it's pretty elusive. It's not, it's not useful even to ask someone if they feel psychologically safe with you. Why? Because if they don't, they might just tell you to do yeah, they're not gonna tell you Yeah. There's a psychological safety can really only be kind of sensed. It's like, there's a felt sense of like the trustful atmosphere of you kind of can, you can feel it in your body. It's like, it's like, okay, I really trust this person, I feel like this is my home, like, these people really care about me, that's there's a, there's a, there's a deep sense that when you feel really psychologically safe, there's a sense of freedom and comfort that I can really be myself here. Yeah. And in most work environments, you don't get that. Um, the reason that's important, when, if you're gonna bring any round into it is because if, if, if I'm talking about my basic fear is that I'm worthless. And I'm going to, and I'm going to share my relationship with that to you. That's not the same conversation as what's your favorite color? You know, that's, that's,
Mark 43:39
yeah, it's hard to use every color is like, that's so red of you, like your favorite color, like your, but I suppose, like, in fact, you might be right, you are worthless, that that's
Josh 43:50
Yeah, well, you know, it's like, our, our deepest fears and desires are, are difficult to talk about. And our, I think, particularly in the West, our cultural relationship towards vulnerability is, is challenged, to use the light word. And, you know, vulnerability is, by definition, a difficult thing. It's, it's, you know, it's not that pleasant to be vulnerable. The aftermath of once you've revealed something that's vulnerable, once you've been vulnerable with the person is, is, is generally really great if the person was there for you and kind of held, held your vulnerability with with dignity and respect and the way that make you feel seen and supported and loved. But that's what I'm talking about. So, you need you need an environment of psychological safety, you need to establish the ground rules of what it means to create an environment of psychological safety. I think before you can meaningfully anyway, bring the anagram into into into it.
Mark 44:55
So this is really a leap. So this is a leadership calling right? Because as if you're an employee and you're like, I wish it were safer. Well, there that's, that's a whole different discussion. It's a good discussion is not it's not a pointless discussion. But that's not where we're at right now we're really talking about somebody who has commanded their life and their team, usually, because people who listen to this are usually the boss or something very close to it. And so it's their responsibility to create that sense of safety and create a safe environment. And that's not always that easy. So it's true. In fact, I think that's a could be a distraction, I do, let's just sort of establish that that's the case, you have to say, create a sense of a safe environment. That is in Patrick lencioni talks about this part of how you write first, you've got to be very vulnerable. I don't want to go down that rabbit trail, because it's very important topic. But I think what I want to get to more now is, so what what does that What does vulnerability sound like you've got a safe environment. And maybe this is an instructive to the leaders of if they do their own inner work, how they share their vulnerabilities. What are some enneagram examples of things that you would share into that safe space?
Josh 46:05
Oh, that's an interesting question.
Mark 46:09
Maybe it just type by type, pick a one or two types and say, like I say, if you're a type one, this is what you might learn about yourself. And this is mine, how you, you might share it with your team? Mm hmm.
Josh 46:20
Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. So we'll go around the anagram. There's one thing I'll say beforehand, and that's that vote. Because of vulnerability is kind of a hot topic these days, I think there is. There can be a slight performativity around vulnerability like I'm, there's the way that it's like I can, I'm going to share this, I'm going to share a story with you. About this time when I was a kid, that was really painful for me. But I've gotten to the point where I feel so comfortable that I'm so rehearsed and telling the story, that it's not actually it's not actually a moment of vulnerability to share it with you. It, it has all the trappings and the and sort of the appearance of vulnerability. But like, if you're telling me that story, then I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to sense in some deep way that actually it's not like I see just yesterday. Yeah, that's not we're talking about we're talking about, you know, being vulnerable. Um, which is, which is a different thing. Yeah. All right, cool. So let's, let's go to the enneagram. Type, Type ones, ones are riff. So ones are going to use the, there's a lot of names for each of the types. And I'm going to just use the ones that I think are my favorite. So the nickname for the type one is the reformer. And one's basic fear is that they have some, potentially some some defect and the desires to be to be aligned and contributing to what is good and right. There's a sense that they have a kind of gut sense of morality. And they're, they're not afraid for speaking up for what's true. For what is Yeah, for what they what they, how I put this Yeah, actually hold on just one second kind of like chewing on your question, like, what would one what might a one share in a state of vulnerability? Yeah, could be a story where they are confronting some way they felt that they were wrong about something. Or when they when they when they let go of a tightly held position. Like they had a particular ideal and then they realized that actually, they've been holding us this ideal in a way that was really really rigid and and that made them critical someone and realizing that they could relax that ideal enough to have more forgiveness and compassion for that person, that'd be a moment of vulnerability for
Mark 49:12
so in the real world that look good, that sound like what I what I've heard, described as the moralists like, you know, this is this is sort of morally wrong, and they get obsessed with what's right and wrong and in the world in terms of ethically, but completely ignoring the practical sense of like, the world is a little imperfect. We need to let go of the ideals and talk about what works and what doesn't.
Josh 49:36
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm gonna just pull up some notes for myself. This I have. So here's the thing about the enneagram is that I feel I feel very strongly that because the anagram the contents of the anagram is so so potentially sensitive. It's very important. To not just kind of wing it, when you talk about the environments, I think it's important to have notes in front of you so that you don't potentially trigger someone who you're describing. So if you just give me one second, I'm going to I'm going to pull up these notes here. Alright, so I know that's not the right thing. Yeah. All right. Cool. So you want to do this? We're gonna go around the anagram. Yeah. Huh? Yeah. All right. So let's, um, so one's just going to, let's move to is actually, yeah, let's talk about twos here. When I come back to ones because I want to, I want to make sure that I do them. I do them fairly. But start with tour. Okay. So twos, twos. twos are compassionate and generous people. They're people oriented. And the whole thing about being a two is that it's their people for whom connection with others is what makes life worth living. So for tos helping others, is as natural as breathing and really more than any other type, they enjoy going out of their way to contribute to other people's lives. They do that with small acts of kindness by lending a hand wherever they can, they're sort of nurturers and caretakers that didn't have very high emotional attunement to people, um, and, in a word, never caring. So when they're healthy, to demonstrate the good side of being caring, just like a genuine selflessness, the ability to connect warmly with others. And the ability is very important, the ability to let go when necessary. When they're unhealthy, they show the dark side of being caring, which is the tendency towards unnecessary self sacrifice, smothering, possessiveness, and kind of denying one's own needs and desires. So, um, twos, goodness, twos, twos can have a twos have this kind of exquisite sensitivity to other people. And one of the ways they can get stuck is by feeling the need to show up angelically selfless for other people. And so one of the ways that they can be vulnerable is by actually expressing their own needs.
Mark 53:02
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people feel guilty with that. Yeah, that's right. Don't don't have the tools in there. Like, it doesn't seem right. To Yeah, to ask for something. That's not their job, especially a leadership position.
Josh 53:12
Totally. Totally. Yeah, that's right. Um, okay, cool. Let's talk about threes. So threes are goal oriented people who they must. So threes most clearly demonstrate all the types, the universal human desire to be somebody in the world we talked before, I'm a three, the sense of, I want to feel valuable. There's the kind of at their core, they believe they have infinite potential, and it's their birthright to manifest it. So more than other more than any other type. They love to invest in their own growth. They're persistent about honing their talents and expertises. And becoming really amazing at their crafts, developing whatever way that's going to take them to the next level, lots of also lots of leaders and entrepreneurs and stuff, our threes, it's a type that that tends towards entrepreneurship and leadership. So because of this threes are often admirable and attractive, and sometimes they have a polished star quality, which often they've cultivated intentionally. Yeah,
Mark 54:15
yeah. Kind of the star athletes decorated military officer, you know, that's right. Olympians very, yeah. Yeah, that's right. The resume looks like you know, in this club in all in all the lots of blue ribbons and trophies and that kind of thing.
Josh 54:33
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So um, yeah, you know, in a word, I like this framework for each type. They're sort of the one word that I associated with them. And then the positive side of the dark side, which is the that's the power of the enneagram is it shows the light and the dark red. So in a word threes are ambitious. When they're healthy. They demonstrate the good side of being ambitious, which is the motivation to dream big deal, you can be the ability to be a role model. Who really embodies the best of human nature and the highest possible competencies of your profession. But when an unhealthy three's, most clearly demonstrate the dark side of ambition, things like workaholism, in authenticity, then in the very dark places on scrupulousness, and the kind of inner emptiness that comes from pursuing success instead of honoring your heart's desire, so vulnerability for three is, is, is being with and, and sharing it this is if we're talking about in the context of a kind of a team workshop, it's really sharing. What's your relationship with that inner emptiness? What do you what is your heart's true desire? Or what makes you feel? What really does make you feel seen and valued? Yeah, what what are ways? What are ways that you in the past have lived from the outside and as opposed to the inside out?
Mark 56:02
Like that? appearances rather be? That's right. Yeah, surely inside. That's not that easy for a lot of people to identify with their feeling. I, you know, I've certainly struggled to I look for the results. And then like, how do I feel about that? I don't have time for that. Just Just get used to the behaviors get used to the appearances get used to the patterns that seem to seem to be the shoulds for like, what what's really, what really is gonna bring me the right fulfillment?
Josh 56:28
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Um, All right, cool. Let's talk about fours. So yeah. So fours. Oh, by the way, threes, the nickname for threes is the achiever. These names, by the way, are from the enneagram. Institute, I think that their content is really some of the best that's out there on the just in terms of foundational, like, here's, here's the structure of the type their, their language is very precise. They've just done an amazing job over the years of just honing in kind of sculpting like, these perfect words that are as encapsulating as possible for for each type. So type four, they call the individualist, more than any other type fours are concerned with the question Who am I. So you know, who is who is this person experiencing this life, and in particular, what makes me different from other people. So as a for my own emotions, and preferences kind of fascinate me and occupy most of my attention. As for, I'm a very sensitive soul, and my whole thing of being a forest, I plunge to the depths of the emotional realm, in order to understand the truth of my subjective experience. And as a four, I'm very honest about what I discover. And the beauty of being around a four, particularly healthy four is that they have this way of inviting others into deeper self reflection, because they, they sort of naturally engage in it themselves. They're the most introspective type. Yeah, they're also the type that's most comfortable with the shadow side of the human emotional realm. So they kind of like they drink in the depth, and the emotional intensity of experiences that other types typically can't handle and similar doses. So like, for somebody
Mark 58:15
who might not be familiar with the term shadow, it's essentially behaviors and personality attributes that we sort of ignore in ourselves, that if we, if we look at them directly, we would see them as we see them and other people. Typically, it's like, that person is so selfish, and that person is always in as we, as we do some reflection, we realize, Oh, my gosh, actually, that's me. And that's not easy to see the nature we reason we call the shadow or they call I didn't call that the reason that other people who created the thinking call the shadow is that it's, it's not easy to see. It's a part of us, but it takes some work to go find it. And when we do, it's kind of how one of the ways we raise our game.
Josh 58:54
Right, right. Yeah. So, so fours. Yeah, I love my fours. So yeah, they're fours are the type as I said, their fours are amazing, also providing psychological safety for other people, when they're healthy, when they're not. Because when they're unhealthy, they can become very self absorbed. But when they're healthy, there's this deep comfort with things like grief and loss and frustration and sensitivities and vulnerabilities. And also, you know, the other aspects of the heart kind of love and deep connection and that kind of thing. Then they tend to be very self expressive, usually about the interstates. Okay, so yeah, it's kind of summary form fours are very healthy, they, um, they're these beautiful ambassadors for the the depth and the meaning of the human inner world. They're sensitive, and they're humane. When they're unhealthy, though, they are prone to the dark side of being as introspective as they are. So self absorption, sort of emotional storminess impetuousness and sometimes they can substitute their own Internal fantasy world for reality. And they can get into traps of negativity, that's really, really hard to shake kind of a type of tends towards depression when they're in their average not enough these days. So what is vulnerability for for it's really interesting, it's just so fascinating. This is one of the reasons that the enneagram is so genius, because it really understands the nature of the authentic nature of a person's psyche. Vulnerability for for is actually looking on the bright side of things. It's coming up for air for my emotions, and realizing that there's a bigger picture out there that my my own inner world doesn't have to sit, I don't have to be subsumed in it all the time. So being positive, and seeing the lights is is actually the vulnerable speech for fours.
Mark 1:00:47
Interesting, pretty interesting. Yeah. And so I want to make sure we're using our time. Well, sure. Great. And so I think that if we pick a couple more of these that are good illustrations, sure, listen to this, and they resonate, great. If they feel like they were missed, there's more research, and they can continue the conversation with you outside of this, if that's their short curiosity. So you know, kind of what's the next good clear example that you want to dig into?
Josh 1:01:16
That's, yeah, that's great. Um, why don't we go. So there are two other types, I think that would be useful to talk about on this podcast, because they're the types that I think are most likely to be entrepreneurs. Three, I would say threes and sevens and eights, they're the they're those are the most assertive types of the anagram. Okay. And so they tend to, they tend towards entrepreneurship more than their types. So let's talk about sevens. So sevens are our adventurous and enthusiastic people, they want to experience all the joy that les has to offer, they tend to be very outgoing, sort of energetic multitaskers, they love to stay on the go, they like to try lots of things. So they can be versatile generalists with many, many talents, and interests. They're also you know, there's, they're on the lookout all the time for what's exciting and fulfilling. And so they tend to be aware of what is available to in their relative interests. Um,
Mark 1:02:18
so
Josh 1:02:20
let's see a couple other things that's useful to say. sevens are generally cheerful and vivacious. And they like to they like to raise the spirits of those around them. They're there often kind of life of the party kinds of people and their their positive outlook types, meaning they just they can see the silver lining in any situation. So the so yeah, in a word sevens are very excitable. And so when they're healthy, they demonstrate the good side of excitability, which is, I would say, realistic optimism. A sense of resilience and self assurance. And this is a big deal, particularly for entrepreneurs is the ability to envision and manifest their dreams and focus to do it. When they're unhealthy. However, they must clearly show the dark side of being excitable, which is being scattered, being frenetic being glib of other people being insatiable, and, and just consumptive and avoiding the kinds of pain and vulnerability that actually builds your character. And so that's so vulnerability for seven. It's sort of the inverse of the four that we just talked about. So okay, sevens. sevens, like to stay sort of in the light, sort of exciting, visionary, fun. Everything is all good space. Vulnerability for sevens is what you would characteristically think of as vulnerability. It's like, actually having the patience and the willingness to go to the depths of whatever it is that I'm experiencing. That may be uncomfortable.
Mark 1:03:48
Okay, that makes it Yeah. Because it's there used to kind of being happy. It's their life's a party. And yeah, if the party is not happening, something's wrong.
Josh 1:03:58
Yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And if the party's not happening, they're going to start it. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's your seven. And then we'll talk about eights to wrap it up here. And I'm happy. I would love if you're curious about the enneagram to you know, reach out to me on my website and stuff. But yeah, so type eights. So here's this is kind of the classic entrepreneur type, I would say, I would say eights and threes tend to be drawn to this. eights are people who are bold, and resolute, and passionate about life. They meet life head on, with strength and with vigor, and they serve themselves powerfully in their environments. The main thing is so that no one and nothing can have power over them. So eights are in a way the natural leaders among the personality types that are protective of themselves and also the people in their charge. They tend to operate by gut instinct and a kind of like an almost animal conscience. That comes very solidly from themselves. They're there to charge people, they enjoy testing their will, against all comers. They see the world around them in terms of struggle and endurance. And, and they feel that they must meet the world head on in order to persevere and survive. So
Mark 1:05:18
So I've heard this type eight category, classified, labeled, maybe it's a better word, and sort of the narcissists, and and it's in some of the descriptions, I read a pretty harsh and and I think what I kind of what I like about the eight is that calling it an eight and describing it, as you did sheds a little bit of the evil, that good narcissism tends to associate. So yeah, you know, the power of the eight is the ability to maintain control, like, like in absolute terms, without regard for morality, it's just control is the is the is the currency. And that to me is, I think, an objective way of describing somebody who could look completely insensitive, and narcissistic, and in certain cases seem just bad natured or malicious. But then I have CNA, to somebody who understands that control is their superpower. And, and that's, that's just simply a lever they use, and it's how it's a force for good or a force for evil. It but it's just it's a force.
Josh 1:06:26
Yeah, it's a force as an important word for AIDS power is a good word for its control, control as a complicated word for a it's, it's just, you know, yes, they're sort of just as a technical enneagram point, the, yeah, I'm Ace, it's like to maintain control of their environments, because that means that nothing can get to them. But when they're really healthy, they have they feel a lot more ease and in letting go of control, in a way, though, they're, they're the type that's, that has the most difficulty around that.
Mark 1:07:02
In what feeling ease,
1:07:04
in
Josh 1:07:06
not being in control of the situation, not being sort of top dog in charge. Yeah, and actually, you know, to your point about narcissism, it's interesting, the, what the enneagram really reveals is that we are all narcissistic, in our own style, in the style of our type. The, I think the popular use of the word narcissism tends to be applied more to threes and eights than other types, because they're kind of the the sort of types who are kind of out there and, you know, doing stuff and potentially being insensitive to other people, if they're not that healthy. I would say particularly well, yeah, really both types. Um, but yeah, there's the, the beauty of the intagram is that it's, again, it's, it's very, very good at showing not just the not just the pattern of of narcissism, but also the, the way out of that pattern, and what kind of what treasures can be revealed once he relaxed those patterns. So in other words, for the eights or eights have the most capacity to be constructive in the world. They're the most constructive type when they're healthy. When an unhealthy they're the most destructive type. Because there's they're so forceful and powerful. So no matter where they are, in terms of their psychological health, they're gonna be very forceful. Yeah, but, but when they're healthy, they, they, they do things like they champion other people, and they, and they like to have it, they want to have an impact on the world that lasts. That's, that's, that's empowering for other people they want they want to, you know, build things that last and and when they're not healthy, they can be sort of equally disruptive.
Mark 1:08:49
Well, that is that type eight is an example to illustrate the two points. You mentioned, one young one was that don't get confused, the most easily labeled narcissist is not the only narcissist that everybody has the capacity to be narcissistic in their own way. But when they're operating in an unhealthy capacity, and everybody, including the most obviously narcissistically capable people have the ability to make a super high contribution that when they're in the healthy state, every has some degree of equal access to that. And the second point you made which you and I talked about before, was that your particular approach and I guess you maybe you could speak to how you think the enneagram builds this into the ethos but just like so, like any personality profile, any personality test, a lot of people go right to like, yeah, you know, as soon as soon as you call it, you put a label on it, then you start living into it, like even if it's doesn't exactly describe you now as your excuse, like I'm just Well, you know, I'm a type a you know, I'm I'm, I'm powerful I'm, you know, if you don't like type eights, you know, I'm a type eight, you know, because excuse Yes, and you and I said no, no, that's that's not how we approach it. Let me say that you know, once you can once you get something that resonates with you This is your way to do break down the walls, the barriers, the types, the labels, and at some point, because you've identified yourself as one of these types, you don't have to be locked into those patterns. And, and before you had the label, those patterns were kind of unknowingly in control of you in the benefit of labeling, and is that you realize that they're not just attributes that that sometimes they serve you and sometimes they don't serve you. And if they're not serving you, it gives you some ways to put yourself in control, put your intentionality and control and actually get the results that you're looking for.
Josh 1:10:36
Did I love your saying 100% love, I love that point. And this is really important, I think to say, the reason the enneagram exists, I think is, is actually to make the argument that you're not your type.
Mark 1:10:54
So you're not limited to your type.
Josh 1:10:57
Yeah, in other words, your type is, um, is a contracted state. It's, it's the way that you it's the way that you react to stress the way you cope with the difficulties of the world. Like, if I'm an eight, it's like, I don't want people to get to me, I don't want people to have a chance to destroy me or disrespect me. And so I'm going to, I'm going to pop on my chest I'm going to swagger about and I'm going to go out and I'm going to, I'm going to make things happen on my own terms. And that's just that's a coping mechanism. It's just one of nine, but it's a it's a coping mechanism. The whole point of growing up, though, of maturing is, and the point of inner work is, is to realize that that coping mechanism, which we learned when we were very, very young, we don't really need it anymore. It's Yeah, maybe it might be useful in certain situations. But it's, it's not actually it doesn't define you. It's not who you are. So here's a beautiful quote that is, in the wisdom of the enneagram. The way they describe it is the enneagram doesn't put you in a box. It shows you the box you're already in, and the way out.
Mark 1:12:14
Yeah, I love that. And I think that I don't know how that lands when people hearing this. But I think that i think that's sort of the awakening. I think that people go through life feeling limitless. And then in somewhere in life, we start to encounter some repetition. Like, well, maybe not everything is a total is a variable. And I feel like I'm turning left, and I'm still veering, right? Yeah, it's like, Hmm, maybe there's something at work here. And it starts to be these hidden things like the shadow shadow and other things. Like, you know, how many divorces Do I need to go through before I realized that maybe the common ingredients of me, right, I don't experience that issue. And the same thing, as you know, hiring I've had the same same, you know, failed state, you know, it's like, at some point is me. And and you have to admit that maybe there's an invisible box, I think, I think that's what inner work ends up being this is this, like the confession that okay, maybe there's maybe there's more than one box, maybe there's layers of boxes and chains and other things that I can't see any of. And maybe I'd like to see if I could sniff out some of these things and free myself. Absolutely.
Josh 1:13:23
Yeah. And, yeah, I just love what you're saying. To me. That's the whole point. That's the whole point of anagram is, is that it's a map that helps you navigate that territory. Yeah,
Mark 1:13:35
well, man, we've covered a lot. Did we miss anything critical you want to sort of round the conversation out with
1:13:45
just take a moment to reflect on that? Yeah.
Josh 1:14:02
You know, I love I love that. I love that this topic, the enneagram and inner work and psychological safety is I just love that we're at a point in our, in our time when this is considered a worthy subject on an entrepreneurship and leadership podcast. It's It's so important. And I think that there's so so much of our culture is designed to help us avoid going into the inner world. And we we avoid it at our peril. Because we don't see, simple we don't see what we don't see. And if we don't take the time to investigate what's going on, in the shadows of our minds. Then There are patterns that are running us that we don't realize. And that is, you know, you're just going through life in a patterned way that you're likely thinking is the right way. And you're confused about why everyone else is on your same page. And I think it's a act of heroism to go inside, and to get clear about what's what's going on for you to understand your inner mechanisms, so that you can show up in the best possible way. And that's what, you know, I think that's, that's what I'm here for on earth to is to help people do that help people navigate that territory, because it's, we're talking about is an easy one. This is there's nothing easy about investigating your own psyche, and confronting and integrating what you discover there is nothing easy about it. But it's so it's so powerful, and so rewarding. And, yeah, here's something else, I think, is really just important to round this out is that I think a lot of spiritual teachers can, there's so well intentioned, and I think they sometimes can alienate their audiences by saying things like, Well, you know, you have to just be in a constant state of surrender, or the hell let me actually put it this way, this a sign that you're doing meaningful inner work, is the experience of humiliation.
Mark 1:16:45
Interesting, interesting. And,
Josh 1:16:49
you know, which is, humiliation has the same root word with humility, it's, that's it's a humbling yourself to the the powerlessness that you have against your inner mechanisms. And it's through that recognition that actually, you start to gain some power inside there. So that you stop being so powerless against your own inner mechanisms, that you start creating some more inner freedom. And there are kind of like, you know, up, if you're on the path, if you're on the path of inner work, there are incredible benefits that you get. So it's not just it's not just humiliation, you don't just like it's not just a sort of self glorifying self flagellating, kind of like, humbling. I'm on my knees, and I'm recognizing all of my shadows kind of thing. What is, it's like, what do you get? What do you get from that work? Is the main question. And that's, I think, the the main question that needs to be answered for it to invite more people into this path, which I think is so important, what do you get, and my experience personally, is that what I get is so much more patience, for the kinds of things that used to really bug the shit out, I mean, and with patience comes the ability to act wisely in moments when otherwise it would have flown off the handle, to respond as opposed to react. And I can't really think of a more fundamental leadership competence than that P ability to not react according to a pattern that was installed against my own will long ago. And to have the freedom to, to access in any moment, the greater depths of wisdom, so that I can be with, you know, so that I can whatever it is, I'm leading a company or I'm being with my sister in a different way, or I am, I'm, I'm able to, you know, be a better dad, whatever it is, whatever it is, that support you, in a work is so foundational, that that's so you, there are there are real real rewards from this work. They're real words and they are in the realms of like depth and meaning and wisdom and the ability to act with more strength to speak up for yourself when maybe you wouldn't have before or to restrain yourself when otherwise you would have flown off the handle those are, that's what you get. That's what you get is you get when you when you really get maturity and depth.
Mark 1:19:34
So when you said something at the start of that, that thinking was you're you're you're grateful and impressed and it's great time to be doing this kind of work. And it's it's, it's great that people are open to it. And I think I think it's really important to kind of note that I think, if this is a capitalist need, this is this is not a spiritually motivated need. Here's work that's like, when you're competing, you got to compete against people who outperform you. And so when people do this work, they outperform you. So what's your what's your option, you got to find a way out outperform them. And that's the thing. And so like, well, it's not necessarily about copying what they do, it's like, well, if you can find a better way to do it, but what we're finding is that people perform at a higher level. And the command and control leadership of the past does not compete with, inspire and enable and inform. And when we can create this empowerment culture, and create the lots more sunlight and wind, we find that you get a lot better fruit from the, with the with the sun than than the wind. And so I think it's super practical. It's pragmatic. It's like, you know, we've got to be there. And I think it's particularly now we've got, you know, you look around and in a visionary entrepreneur, 10 or 20 years into their journey, has got accumulated some frustrations, and you say, you know, is it could it possibly be inner work? And they're like, yeah, I
Josh 1:21:05
think it could be, he
Mark 1:21:06
could be, I've been thinking about that for a while for I kicked it down the road for 10 1520 years. But now I'm like, I think there's something to it. And so we do the work now, you know, younger generations exposed to it, you know, it's like yoga. Meditation is it's like it's natural. So there is kind of a transformation happen happens simultaneously across the generations. Like all that to say like, it's not just about like, people wanting to be blue. It's like, Oh, we got to perform. You know what works. Okay, this works. Do it. There you go.
Josh 1:21:37
Yeah. I love it. I love it. You said that. Yeah. I'm just exclamation point. Okay, awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Well, so
Mark 1:21:44
to round us out here. What is your passionate plea to entrepreneurs? Right now?
Josh 1:21:53
Beautiful question. Yeah, doing our work. doing the work, doing the work. Yeah.
Mark 1:22:09
Yeah, it's, you know, it's funny, I couldn't challenge that. I wouldn't challenge that in any way. Because I kind of we know, that's my typical ending the podcast question. And even when I kind of reviewed it, in my mind, we started off like, I wonder if that's not just it. He said, I'd look inward, and see what you can learn about yourself. And, I mean, Jordan Peterson talks about it in a different lens, and he says, get your own house in order, before you worry about changing the world. Yeah, there's lots of reasons why that's the case, but not the least of which is that's really the only place you can control. That is your that is your opportunity for influence and moving the pieces around the most profound and significant way, start there. And when you've got that figured out, it's almost like a little riddle, or when you get yourself perfect, let's move to the next phase of fixing the rest of the world. And it's like, that's gonna happen, because you're never gonna be that I'm super grateful for the time and what you shared. If somebody wants to continue the conversation, if they feel like they were a little more than wanted to learn about the enneagram, or one of the one of the types that or if they didn't sense themselves being described, and when the types we discussed, how do they continue the conversation? How do they find you?
Josh 1:23:18
Yeah, you can just go right to my website, it's Josh lavonne.com. And I'll just spell that actually. So Jo sh, l, ey, as an apple. V as in Victor ayeni. So Joshua, calm and you can also on there, you can download, I wrote an ebook on the enneagram, you can download that, you know, so just feel free to reach out to me through my contact page there. And I'd love to talk to you.
Mark 1:23:42
Awesome. so grateful for the time and the wisdom and the experiences and frankly, vulnerability, man. That is, that's it for today. So of course, please subscribe, share with your friends, make sure people who can get value from this, they get access to it because it doesn't do any good if, if they could use it and they don't know what's here. Leave the feedback. Of course, we'd love both the good and the and the constructive negative feedback. It's always helpful. So that's it. We'll see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me. Mark Henderson Mayer.
VO 1:24:13
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe, go to lear.cc