Number One Best Selling Author of “Your Marketing Roadmap,” Liz Papagni is a leading brand and marketing thought leader and CEO of Marketing Initiative Worx. Inc. As a marketing expert, she has launched and propelled brands like Seneca Foods, Kaiser Permanente, and Toshiba. In addition to agency services for established small businesses and Fortune 500 companies, she also provides C-suite consulting as a Fractional CMO, with a passion for helping companies develop strategies that convince and convert customers.
In times of crisis, marketing always takes the first hit. It happened during the 2008 recession, and we're seeing it happen right now amidst the COVID19 pandemic. Contrary to popular belief, Liz is against completely cutting off your marketing budget. She shares with us how to make to make our marketing efforts more targeted and efficient, so we can keep telling our story even during trying times.
2:30 - Marketing is the first to go during times of crisis.
4:28 - Instead of cutting your marketing budget totally, focus on spending the money wisely and effectively.
5:02 - Strategy first - who you are, what you bring to the table and who your target market is
7:30 - You don't need to be everywhere - you just need to be at the channels where your target audience is
12:20 - it's okay to alienate some people - choose your core audience, your best clients
14:10 - The best way to figure out what strategy to use for marketing
24:22 - To know what message you should send out to your audience, first know what's on their mind.
28:35 - How do you determine how much money to spend on something that may not pay-off in the short term?
34:04 - There's no easier way to waste your company's money than to do marketing foolishly
34:59 - How do you convince companies with a limited budget to get into marketing?
38:22 - Common mistakes people make when marketing
42:35 - It's important to understand people's emotional side as most people make decisions based on emotions
46:37 - Low risk, high reward marketing tactics
54:23 - Before you advertise, have some organic content first
Liz Papagni:
www.marketingiw.com
https://www.facebook.com/marketingiw/
www.linkedin.com/in/lizpapagni
https://twitter.com/mrktgworx
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
LIZ PAGANI:
www.marketingiw.com
https://www.facebook.com/marketingiw/
www.linkedin.com/in/lizpapagni
https://twitter.com/mrktgworx
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
June 16, 2021 | Wednesday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, marketing, customers, clients, company, target, strategy, money, business, talking, b2b, spend, selling, sales, conversation, digital, important, question, visionary, world
SPEAKERS
VO, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson, Leary and my name is Mark. And I have a passion that you should feel in control your life. And so what I do is I help business owners and entrepreneurs get more control of their business. And part of how I do that is by letting you listen in on a conversation between two people with a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world, talking about a subject you probably already know something about, or maybe even a lot about. But in a new depth, you get a chance to hear something that changes your thinking that allows you to get a new perspective to break through the ceiling and really get the success you've been struggling to get in whatever part of your business, you've been stuck. So we've got a great guest today. But a little housekeeping, I want to remind you that this information that we record is no good to anybody if they don't find it. So please don't forget to subscribe, share this with people who can use it and leave feedback, it really does make a difference, it gives people an opportunity to find it and know what they're getting into. So I want to make sure you get a chance to do that. So today I want to talk about number one best selling author of your marketing roadmap roadmap, roadmap. Liz Aponte is a leading brand and marketing thought leader and CEO of marketing initiative works. And she's worked on brands, you know, like Seneca foods, Kaiser Permanente into Sheba. But she also does a lot of advisory and Chief Marketing Officer work for companies like you who are trying to turn that marketing and messaging into money. And that's her passion to really bring that to life and make sure your time effort, message and story is really landing in the place where it can be useful and help you grow the business. And so I want to welcome Liz Aponte.
01:56
Thank you, Mark, I'm so great to be here and excited about having a great conversation with you and providing a lot of value to individuals who are listening today.
Mark 02:06
Well, so let's let's get there a couple things crossed my mind, I want to we're going to state you know, for those who may be listening to this in a different time, we're kind of in the law. But well, honestly, I'm predicting a bit of a second wave and COVID-19. So we're kind of in the other side of trying to reopen the country and the in the state and the city. And we're seeing some cases arising. So we don't exactly know what's coming. But marketing, marketing and messaging and telling your story is something that is on so many businesses minds, for a couple reasons. And I think we get this real mixed mixed message. as business owners that is stop spending any wasted money, you've got to pull it back. And we know marketing gets hit right away. And then all the marketing advices This is your time to market and tell the story. And it's a total mixed message. What are business owners supposed to do with marketing right now?
03:06
So yes, you're right, the first thing that people cut back on is marketing. And then marketers are saying we need to do it. So I think what the focus needs to be is the question I always ask is, you know, do you want to be ahead of your competition, when things start picking up? Or do you want to be behind. And, and I would venture to say that everyone's going to say that I want to be ahead of the game. So I think it's a choice between spending money wisely on marketing, and making sure that you're ahead of the game and not wasting money. And the way that you do that is make sure that when you're developing your marketing, that there's key things that you should know about your company, you need to know what your mission is, what your vision is, and why you're different than the competition and who you're actually targeting. Because if you know those four key components, then when you go out and develop your marketing strategy, and plan is going to be based upon only what you need to do and what you don't need to do. And what I mean by that is not only you're developing a strategy to meet your specific goals and objectives, but what you're also looking at going after the right target that you're supposed to be going after. And then you're only choosing those marketing channels that your target looks at and is at. So when you hear people say cut your marketing or spend money. The thing is, is that you shouldn't cut all of your marketing because then how are you going to tell your story? How are you going to keep paying, how are you going to let people know they're top of mind? How are you going to let new people know what you're doing? But it's spending the money wisely and effectively is how you need to do that. So my thought on that is know all those other four components and strategize on that and have a good plan. You always like for philosophy perspective. Did my philosophy as well as my agency philosophy strategy first, so you know where you're going. And if you know your target, then when you're trying to develop your strategy and your plan, you're only focusing on what you should focus on, and spending your money on what you should spend it on. That's how you should market.
Mark 05:17
So when you see strategy first, I'm glad you went there, because that was one of my specific questions, because I think a lot of business owners look at the word strategy, and they think of it as not useful right. Now, actually, it can be taken two ways. I mean, some companies will think that's not useful at this moment. But it just ends up being like big company thinking, and strategy. You know, that's, that's fortune 500 stuff and entrepreneurial companies like us, we don't have time for that. So explain that. What is strategy?
05:43
So really strategy is, it's not complicated, it doesn't take a long time. So really, it's kind of let me say, maybe more, it's getting your ducks in a row. Right? So meaning that, like I said, you know exactly who you are, why you're different, the value you bring to the table and who you're targeting, who are your best fit customers Who's your best best fit prospects. And if you know that, that gets all put together, you know, can he's cohesively, and then you use that information, to choose how you're going to market to those individuals. So it's not complicated, it's not big, it's just knowing some key, let's say fundamentals of any business that you should know already. Or you may be having to rework that because of the difference in the economy's different things, what people are looking for, because those key elements are what, tell people why to buy from you. So it's the strategy is about getting people to look at you and to buy from you. And if you don't know those fundamental things that are easy. I'm sure that entrepreneurs that stuff you already know. But you haven't put it down, no one's work with you to actually make that succinct thing of what those things are, you already know it, you just have to figure you just have to put it in the buckets. And then and take that and use it. So it's effective. Most of the times. Yeah, most of the most of the time when entrepreneurs do is because they grow their business or certain they'll say, Well, I never had to market and I grew my business, but they reach a plateau, right? And they can't grow. They can't scale. Or they're saying, Well, you know, somebody said I need to do direct mail, or someone says I need to be on Instagram. So they go off and they spend their money and they go on to us. But guess what, if there's not a goal that if it's not, you know, if it doesn't all work together, and put maybe your target doesn't even look at that channel, you're wasting your time and money. So if you can take the effort and time in the beginning, to develop those pieces correctly, then you're going to be your end goal is going to be much more successful in the end. So it's really not complicated. It's just knowing those fundamental pieces of any company that you should know.
Mark 08:01
So that's great. So um, we didn't coordinate on this at all, but and I wanted to know your definition of strategy. So in EOS, the toolset that I teach, there is a concept called the marketing strategy. And it's exactly what you said so, and I always wonder and fear that the strategy word scares people off. But it's really essential. And it's just four critical questions. Who is your target market? What are your three? uniques? What do you How are you different? What is your proven process for getting your results? And what do you guarantee or pledge that is different than you commit to? And those four questions are? Exactly that's the strategy that is who you're going after. And but you mentioned that there's a lot of times we know it I I don't that's not obvious to me. I've worked with a lot of companies who don't know it, they don't. And it is important to ask that question. Because then like you said, This tactics, we're gonna go digital, we're gonna we're gonna update the website, you know, for whom? Yeah, who is gonna come? Like what what do you what are you going to say? Cuz you don't know who you're talking to. And so that's, that is exactly right. And it is, it is not as complicated as hiring a giant consulting firm. For most companies, a lot of times the business just needs to sit still long enough. And I can guide a company through that process at a high level in an hour and a half to two hours in most cases, to the point where it's useful. I I'm willing to bet and I know that other marketing firms brand firms, you know, they say an hour and a half or two hours you're like no, you're missing the boat. There's a lot of depth to that and so that's a different animal but how long How do you see getting somebody in your experience getting somebody enough usable marketing strategy together? Is this an hour and a half conversations a two week conversation or whatever, you know,
09:48
for us because you know, we're not you know, we're not a dog and pony agency at all. We get down right to the get to the meat. So I would say that Let's say for us, if we have an input session with our client, I think I can do in about an hour an hour half as well. And I can get down to the to the details now. But what I would say on that as well is once we have those details, and we probably have a good feeling for what they are, we do our own homework. On the back end, we do a lot of market research and competitive research. And we do a lot of surveying of their current clients and their partners and all that so we can quantify what we're thinking, as well as we always learn nuggets, when you actually talk to stakeholders that are either part of the company or work with the company, you hear a lot of good things from current clients that they're already working with. So we kind of take what we hear from the clients. And then we look to the influential chain in the area to make sure that we're quantifying what we're hearing, and or come back with recommendations say we're we're hearing this, what do you think about this? So that's kind of how we do it. But we can have, we can sit with a client for about an hour and a half. And so we can get what we need in order to do what we need to for additional work. So and I would say
Mark 11:06
important is getting that. Okay, keep going.
11:10
And then I would say when you said that people don't know, I think that inherently, there's at least suspect, right. And if you ask the right questions, you're going to get the answers that you need, like they know, but they might like you said they don't know. But they kind of know because if you ask the right questions, you get the answers that you need to make that conclusion. So I kind of is a little bit different. So But
Mark 11:37
well, when I say people don't know. Usually, there's ideas. Yeah. And where it gets tricky is when they won't stop with the idea. Yeah, while you're talking to. Right, well, we can talk to these people, and we can talk to these other people. And then what about that big company? Oh, yeah. What about the bunch of really small companies, I tried to get people comfortable with the idea that yeah, if they call you in, and you can help them, you should help them. But we're not this marketing strategy is about telling a story. And you're going to spend time and money. And it should be a simple, easy to tell story. Don't worry about alienating people, because not that many people are going to hear the story, only the people you give real effort to are going to hear it. And so pick a narrow lane, you can tell a consistent story. And pick your very best customers, the ones you know, you can help. And the ones that you know, you want more of not the ones that you were tolerating, don't, don't intentionally go find more mediocre or lame clients get get the get the best, right?
12:36
So I mean, I think even when you say tell your stories, every company you are what you are. Right. And you're in business for a reason. And like you said, You can't pretend to be something else you can't get so fixated on Well, this person is doing this, this person is doing that you are who you are, you have every company has some kind of key differentiator, or we can figure out what that is, and just be authentic. Because today, people want to do business with companies that you know, they like and trust and that they're authentic. And and you know, more than more today is that they want to know more about the company, who the stakeholders are, what they believe in and stuff like that. So, you know, just be yourself and do what you do. And tell the story in a way that orbit is going to interest the target and the people that you're going after. And it's going to engage them and give them a reason to listen. So.
Mark 13:31
So if this sounds somewhat, what's the word I'm looking for? can be a little academic sounding to somebody who's feeling a little freaked out. Okay. So what are some mistakes? What are some things that it accompanies right now where the stakes are so high? And and they want to take some action and they don't want to take action? In with peacetime enthusiasm. This is war time. And they want to do this well, and quickly and efficiently with their money and time, what are some things that they shouldn't do? And what are some things they should do given that,
14:02
um, I would say that the best way to figure out is to spend some time on is, you know, sometimes just start sticking stuff on on a board or something like that, right, have free flowing thinking, right? So you can kind of come to some conclusions. And don't get so worried about what we are today and things like that, just get some thoughts going, get some ideation going and get that flow moving to kind of get some of that stuff out. And I know it's war time and you got to have short term goals. You got to have long term goals. But the thing is, is that a best source of to find information is your best fit customers that you already have. And speak and speaking to them and serving them and asking them questions. You're gonna find out a lot there. So I would say you got to keep your business moving and you Gotta keep it going while you're, you know, probably trying to figure it out. So I would say that just make sure you know who you're targeting, and you know why you're different and what your value is, and then start from there and then try to in and kind of branch out from there. I think that answers your question, but it might not. Well, let's
Mark 15:18
keep going with so one of the one of the things that I found with this back to the strategy word world, when, when the urgency came up, we've got to go to work to reduce costs play serious defense to make sure we we ready for all this uncertainty, it seemed like, there was no time for what I call long term planning. And that seemed irrelevant. And what I found through my own experiences, which I later took to my clients, and had, the exact same effect was that there was nothing more important than the long term planning. Because we were all panicked with the uncertainty, we didn't know what to focus on, and what was a good use of our time. And we were rapidly out of time and energy, trying to just bail the boat. So when we did long term planning, including things like 10 year target three year picture, the long term things, the one year plan, that stuff was was critical. Because it really got us a sense of like, okay, everything we do, still relevant mean, it's going to be relevant, the future is still relevant. Now. Even if there's a speed bump, it's not, it's not crazy, it's not stupid. This is stuff that requires our attention, and there's still a job to do. And I can tune out some of the things now that aren't part of that job, which then leads leads, leads us all the way up to the core focus, which is what do we do? And why do we do it combined, you know, what gets us out of bed in the morning, right. And this is the core focus is a really important part of us. You know, it's that purpose, cause or passion. And it is the niche where we play, those two combined get us refocused. And then when we have some clarity of that we can do that ideation you just talked about? Because talking to I've had this conversation, a couple of different forms. It is if you're a consulting firm, and you're trying to pivot to making hand sanitizer, does that make sense? Right, like, probably not, like, I mean, I mean, the world needs it right? Do you know how can you efficiently get those resources? When you get that when you get back to business? Well, will you have used that time? Well? Or could you? Or should you have volunteered services and done things that you know how to do that are built into your core focus? No, but there are companies who, you know, they they make vodka, right? That company might should make hand sanitizer, that's, that's fits in their world. And so understand understanding a sense of your identity, who you are, and letting go because I had exactly that one, marketing consulting firm, like, Look, we don't have a pivot to making melting down plastic to make facials. That's not our pivot. And so you got to let go of what you can and can't do. And then ideate within, within that space of the kind of thing kind of things you could do. So how does that manifest? So I mean, there's work you can do. I mean, we're kind of not, I don't know, if we're in that moment right now, or not every business is in a different spot. I suppose. They're probably some companies who are just finally today going, Oh, we really have to create some creative revenue. Now, which is in a parallel channel, to what story do we tell but not the same? Like if you if you have clients who can use stuff that you do that you can, but you don't normally do, that's a selling activity, I suppose I'm thinking this through out loud so you can change what you sell at a different rate. That you change what you market and, like Uber, like Uber marketing went from ride with us to don't ride with us. Total reverse course. The best way you can help us is stay out of our out of our Hoover's right now at least that's what the messaging said. And and that's a bold move. So how do people start thinking about what message they want, and I want to get to tactics, but then tactics being meaning, you know, email campaigns, bizdev telephone calling people you know, outbound cold calling, digital website, all that all those tactics. That's that's, that's we're not there yet. I want to talk about that in a minute. But right now, strategically, how do people get a sense of the message that they want to tell people now need to tell people?
19:15
I think that there's two things to look at, right? So if you are and I'm in total agreement that if you're going to pivot for short term, right, for short term revenue, you might like a manufacturers does plastic does plastic shields, because that's what they do. But you don't go anywhere where you don't want your you know, don't go out of a space that you're not, you can't be credible in, right. So I think that you can look at, like, look at your customer base, right? You have customers that purchase things from you already. But do they? Do they really know in your wheelhouse? Do they really know that you offer other things? Right? So for instance, you already have a customer that likes you and say, I don't know say you're a software company and you offer different types of software, right? Like maybe you have HR software, you have accounting software, we do like your the earpiece system, right, I'm just using that as an example. And you have an earpiece system and someone that one of your clients only has the accounting portion, but they don't have like the financial portion. So I think that from a message perspective, look, internally First, look at who your customers are, right now, look at what services that you're providing for those customers, and use those relationships and leverage those relationships in order to try to cross sell to them. Because right now we need to, we need sales, right? So what better way is to go to the clients that you already have, and, and let them know other things that you have that you provide that they might need that they might not know about? Right. So that's how you message. So that's an internal customer message, right. And also on that line, too, is when those customer message, make sure at that time you're being a resource, it's really important today from your customers is to look as a resource, because there could be ways that you continue to build that relationship to increase sales later, right. So
Mark 21:04
so that's the critical thing. I want to dig into that. So I have there's been a very big continuum from people who sell products that are really still in demand and very minor minor change from what it was before. And there are other spots where it's like, Look, I cannot talk about your product right now. That's not what we're doing. And so getting a sales team. How do we get the sales team or even the marketing team or even the mindset of the leadership to dial the right amount of listening and telling and get insensitivity? I've talked to several companies like I just don't, I don't even I don't know how to find out where my customer really is, especially if there's like b2c and you got lots of little customers, or lots of lots of people out there on the other side of the internet, you're like, I don't know what's going on in their world. If it's a smaller consulting firm, and you've got a couple of very large contracts, you know, you make 10 phone calls, and you kind of know where everybody's at. But what do you tell people for calibrating they're giving versus selling versus just listening type of activities? To get plugged in? And be where the customer? Yeah,
22:07
I wouldn't. Yeah, I would say in the in the environment. We are right now. If there, there is no, there's really not a lot of sales conversations happening, right, pure sales conversations. So I think the approach and the message on that is about helping being a resource. Let me give an instance, an instance if I may, on one of the clients that I have, right. So they are a hitter in their in the meat processing market, which obviously there's a lot of stuff going on with that with COVID happening with that shortages and things like that. So, we pivoted and I that words being overused, but I'll use it because it kind of works. But I used it Yeah, absolutely. No, um, so we pivoted in terms of our communications, we pivoted towards showing how they're Feeding America, because they, you know, they're switching production lines from industrial to consumer, because they do both, they do both industrial and they use consumer. So our communications now are about how they're taking care of their employees, how they're making them safe. We're doing a lot more internal customer spotlights, we're highlighting, they're not customer, I'm sorry, employee spotlights. So we're being very resource or being a resource or showing how we care. We're showing how we're taking care of your employees. So we basically switch that communication to focus on what the company is doing to make their employees safe, and what they're doing to help feed America. We're not talking about hey, go buy this burger now. Or hey, go buy this or, you know, driving sales to retail or anything like that we're focusing more on on a resource, we care or taking care of people. That's how we're that's how we're pivoting messages. We're not talking about sales. Right now. We're talking about culture, we're being authentic, we're being genuine being caring. So that's an example of how we're not selling anything different. We're not saying we're not who we are, but we're focusing on what people need right now and what people want to hear, but in an authentic manner, because that's really how they do run their company. We're not pretending or something we're not. We're just highlighting things that we haven't highlighted before.
Mark 24:22
So yeah, so I agree. And part of my question is getting the How do you know what that where that message needs to land? And I, in my own mind, I've sort of answered it for myself, and that is your and I believe that this is your job as the CEO as the as the visionary Head of Marketing, head of sales, anybody whose job it is to know what your customers are thinking, and you're stuck, and you don't because you don't know what they're thinking, then that's urgent. Like that's a problem. You need to pick up the phone and find out because you need to know what they're thinking and feeling and it's really oftentimes not much harder than picking up the phone and asking them So that I would sort of, you know, if you don't know that you don't have any to sell them. And you just want to, like you said, sort of share the core values make display who you are, so people can think of you and so they can connect with you in ways that will one day pay off. If you don't know what your customers and clients need to hear, you better find out and it's and you don't need to hire somebody for that you need to pick up the phone and find out. Yep, yep. Because when I heard that, keep going, I have to hit a hard question on this. Because I think
25:29
we're actually doing that for some of our clients, as well as talking to clients, and doing it from a third party perspective, because sometimes picking up the phone and talking to them, some of them might not tell you what they're really thinking, right? So we've kind of done that on the premise of, we're here. We want to help, you know, we want to help you better and things like that. And we're a third party and we don't share information, we're just going to put a report. So there's a way to you don't have to do that. But for some clients, we're doing that as well. Because you're absolutely right. If you don't know, then it's a critical point. And I would also say that, from a customer perspective, a prospect perspective, even before the COVID situation, statistics say that 100% of individuals, whether it's for business or personal buy by emotion. So if you don't know what the emotional cues are, not only for buying, but for what they're feeling right now. I mean, just look at any news channel today, you're kind of know what's happening and what people are feeling. So not only do you talk to your customers, but you got to look at the market, you got to look at what's happening in the in the economy and in your market, too. And if you don't know that, then you need to know that too. So yeah, I
Mark 26:39
don't think that necessarily so straightforward. Based on it, depending on what industry. Yeah, I think you can feel that the news has nothing to do with your customers, right? You might have government contracts for roadwork, right, you know that right? No relationship that's like it just rocks on. And then you've got other other situations, we'll call I guess, on my clients aren't buying anything? Well, do you know? Did you did you ask them and in the middle, you really have to find out like, Well, what do you need, you know, you're there, there are things that we can help you out with and having a real personal conversation. I just can't overstate how important I think that is to understand where your clients are and not get stuck. You know, fight flight or freeze. You know, fighting is not helpful if you just kind of flailing flat, you know, flat fleeing, getting, you know, getting out of debt, you know, shutting the business down and freezing, sort of pretending it's not happening, and just not the freezing is not good. But there is also pause the thinking about your next ability to fight if you can't fight. Now, if you can't fight well, instead of freezing, you know, think and do some work and find out what's going on and build a plan. And there's been time and there's been time passing, if you haven't done the work, yet, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, the second best time is today. So start finding out where they are and what they need. But my question that I really think a lot about for, I think is at the heart of the matter, for companies who are stuck with marketing is all right, I've seen the Amazon ads, and they make me cry, too. But that's Amazon. They've got all this dang money. I don't know how much money that's gonna make them. And I don't know how much that would make me how this this sounds like a very tactical question. But I think it's really important. How do you figure out how much money to spend on something that doesn't look like it's gonna pay off? For a quarter or two?
28:45
How do you determine? Yeah, so I think you have to look at it in different ways, right? So when you market your product, you do different things for different reasons, right? So you market just to build awareness and let people know that you're out there? Well, is that going to show directly to the bottom line and meet? Are you going to have a one to one relationship with revenue? Probably not? Because that's an intangible, right? So I think the best way to look at that is when you plan you have to plan for different scenarios. So there's a different chain, right? So you need to make sure one that you know, clients, the market and your potential prospect knows knows you, right, they need to know you, they need to know your story number one, so you need to build awareness, then once they look at your story, then you have to engage them, right. And that's part of telling the story, right? So you want awareness and engagement, and then you want them to act, right? So there's different things that you do to get to meet those objectives. Because if they don't know you, and they don't know who you are, there's nothing's gonna help, right? Nothing's gonna help nothing's gonna, you're not gonna sell anything to anybody, right? So, but those aren't necessarily going to quite they're not gonna be quantifiable to the bottom line. What people need to understand about marketing. It's about a story and it's About a journey, it's about a customer journey. And each point is not is not measured to the bottom line. Right? So there's different things. There's awareness, engagement action, once they take action and want them take actions, that's when we bring them in to the funnel, right? And then there's different stages in that funnel as well, because they want to make sure that they do the research before they purchase. So I would say that, how much money should you spend on that? I always let my clients say, Well, how much? You know, if you did, how much is one, if you got one client? How much is that worth to you? What's the long term monetization of that client? Right? So you have to kind of take a look at that if you want to look at General statistics, usually, in terms of spending money for smaller companies, I think it's probably about 6%. Now, it's 6%. It used to be 8%. But I think it's probably about six total revenue, total revenue is about 6%. But when I'm talking about that customer journey, and those different things that you have to do, in order to get somebody actually engaged to want to purchase your product, you do have to put measurements in place, though, everything needs to have some kind of KPI. Right, so so you know that you're doing what you need to do. And the good thing about some tax some tactics today is that you can find that information out pretty quickly. And you can optimize things and you could drop things, you know, digital, you could do a lot quicker, right? Because you can optimize stuff you can learn really quickly. So that's what I say. I mean, I don't think it's a cut and dry. I don't think it's a black and white type of scenario. But I think you need to know that you need to speak to them at every point of the journey. And you need to put KPIs to those. And I think you just need to look at generally what your revenue is and what the statistics say. But I would also say to that is that if you have a certain amount of money that you know, that you want to spend, then you have to look at that bucket, and what should you do in order to be most effective with that budget. So you can look at both sides of the spectrum, you can look at that the sales side, or you can look at, you know what, I think I have this amount of money. But let's see what we can do with it. And another key component of that is, you need to test test, test test, because you don't want to go and say, oh, we're gonna have this plan, we're gonna do all this, we're gonna spend that money. If you don't know what's going to work, then you're wasting your money too. So there needs to be a pilot, there needs to be a test period of time, where you're looking at different things and testing things to see what's going to work the best, and then you roll it out. You just don't go to a complete rollout.
Mark 32:35
Yeah, so I actually want to slow this whole conversation down a little bit, because I think we can pull apart a lot of the things you say, and make them clear to people who don't get this because a lot of the companies I work with are tackling marketing in this sophisticated way for the first time. And they're they're not aware on how deep that work. Okay, so I think that my, my default answer has been for the last 12 weeks. First thing you have to do is understand your defensive strategy. Like you have to have clarity of how you can get viable, and how you're going to do that strictly playing inside, then you've got something left over, hopefully, if you don't, then that may cause you to rethink your defense strategy. But you will have a sense, you should have some sense of what your offense looks like if 50 if you're 50% is offensive. 50% is defense. And that's awesome. But you probably don't have that you probably have like a 7080 90% defensive strategy that's going to leave you with some kind of discretionary money. And like I said, if you don't have any discretionary money for playing offense, then you really need to think rethink your defensive strategy. But the point is, just to understand where you sit, and how much do you have if 6% is still available? Great, effective. 2%? Not great, but better than 0%. So once we established, we've got gambling money. And I think that's probably the appropriate way to think of it. How do we do? How do we use that smart? Because I think right away even very, very simple. It's easy to and there's no, there's no easier way to waste your company's money than on marketing foolishly. I agree. So So from that perspective, I do think that if you don't know what you're doing with marketing, that's probably even worth a satellite. If you don't actually know what you're doing with marketing, you actually should stop it. Because you are probably wasting at all. If If you want to grow into the future, and if you want to be ahead of your competition, two quarters from now, then you'd better learn how to market but you should do that on budget with KPIs, with metrics, with expertise that like I said, fits inside your don't spend outside your budget. Don't do that visionary expense thing. Like this is our time to take over the world because we got in we're gonna spend a ton of money. That might be fine. If you have the right platform, the right message and the right way to measure it. But if you're just shooting from the hip, pretty much more times than not, you're pouring out most of that money. So how do you You tell somebody who has got a limited budget, whatever that looks like, we'll say it's, it's 4% revenue versus 3%. You know, you wish you wish you had a lot more. And and they're entering this marketing thing. They feel like there's an opportunity over the next couple quarters, they want to tell a good story. They believe they've got a good story. They don't want to make mistakes. And they and the risk just feels crazy high that we're going to spend this money and not get anything from it. How do you get them slowly into that process?
35:31
I specifically say, where's your target? Where's your target live? Where do they look for information? Where do they look for credible information? Because that's what we're, that's where we need to be. So when I sat, plain and simple, it's all about where their target is. And where we should we spend our money. And sometimes it could get, it could get down to a key account strategy. That is blocking and tackling, you know, developer by key account strategy. You mean like basically named targets, absolutely named targets. So if you're in there, and you know exactly well, either, where's my target, if we're going to use traditional marketing, like, like a traditional marketing channels and door, if especially b2b companies, if you know that there's 2010 companies you want to get into or 20 companies want to get into? That's what we need to focus on? And how do we get in there? What do we do in order to get in there, that that we could do that? I
Mark 36:31
had a friend really good take me to school on that a couple years ago, on on marketing strategy from that perspective, meaning, when I say mark, we're using this phrase marketing strategy over and over again. But what I meant there is really portfolio of tactics is actually probably a better better phrase, like, what collection of methods were you was I going to use in my role as head of marketing? And I was doing I think, what a lot of people do, we just kind of grabbing what I thought the default tool set for marketing was, and he was like, man, slow down, like how many, how many clients do you have in the marketplace, is it it's a very, very high sale where there's a tiny number, or there lies it'll visit a small sale where there's 1000s, or millions of customers, because the these have totally different paths, and you can't think of them the same at all. If you have B to C, and you've got you're selling $1 item, you've got to have like a very, very low cost of customer acquisition, you've got to have web ads, and very, very effective broad based digital low cost advertising. If you're selling a million dollar service engagement, there's probably 20 customers total. You know, all their names, you don't need to do anything digital, you need to get the numbers and the phone numbers, and you need to dial them in at any cost you can come up with. And so the the marketing strategy, and that said, the tactics that go with that are could not be different. So you said it a couple times. And I think it bears bold letters. Who is your target? And where are they were in capital? Like literally? Like, are they at their desk? like are they at a conference? Are they you know, are they at home? How many of them are there? How can you read? How could you actually reach them on your budget in a way that is most effective? Yep, absolutely. What do people say, See, make mistakes there?
38:22
I see that they? Well, I see people not knowing their target and not and wanting to do and play around and do some things. I would say that
Mark 38:36
they're doing like, I would love to do digital marketing with with some, some paid ads. So then I will find, I will tell myself that I have customers that will do that, even though
38:46
they're not actually yeah. So, um, because everyone, entrepreneurs have a shiny object problem sometimes. So they hear stuff, it's like, oh, I gotta do that. I got to do that. Right. So they. So I would say that the mistake they can make is not to really, truly understand where their customer is, or they don't, they don't necessarily want to do that, because they have a shiny object that they want to test out. Right. So that could be a problem there. I would also say that the message that you're going out with May, there's problems there too, because it's not only knowing where your target is, but if we don't know what their pain points are, and we don't know what solution we provide for those pain points. And we don't tell them how we can do that. That's a problem too. So it's not just the target. It's understanding the psyche of that target and what they actually really want.
Mark 39:47
So listening side of it, yeah, you have to listen really well. And I think we get out of the habit of listening all too easily, especially if we don't like to have to have that many conversations. There's a lot A lot of outbound a lot of uncomfortable work sometimes trying to find out and be humble and an open to us not having all the solutions. That and that's really a sales technique or a sales conversation. If I'm talking to a sales force, I'm saying, you know, don't presume that you know what your customer needs, it's really easy to start thinking that you've got the answers. And I think from a marketing perspective, and from an executive perspective, that kind of gets comfortable to especially you've been in the business a while. But now that we've been highly disrupted, we all of our processes are much less listening oriented, oftentimes, not always, but but oftentimes, we don't have the ability to ask more broadly, what's going on in your world? How can I help what really would take the pain away? what actually is your pain? And so that's the deep, do you suggest people building that into the process?
40:53
I do? I do. And on the line, I think people are, I mean, keep in mind, your clients and customers are human, right? They're people just like everybody else. They have emotions, they have feelings. And especially today, because human interaction is less and less people are, people are really looking for it. Your customers want you to I mean, having a conversation with your faith, they want to tell you, they want to talk to you. So I know sometimes where the barrier is, it's like, well, you know, they're not going to tell us that are there. I mean, if a client that you have is not doesn't have connection with you, and you know, you can't find information out, then sometimes I think well, are they really a good client? Right? So I just think that those convert, you just have to think it's just a conversation, it's just a conversation with between two humans that, you know, they're interacting and interchanging. So that's how you kind of have to think about that, right? And people will tell you, they want to tell you, right, so
Mark 41:56
yeah, that's, you know, if you're, if you're trying to have conversations with people that don't like you, or don't trust you, and vice versa, which I've had people who that their entire business, like we hate our customers, and that's tough, that's a tough place to be if you really don't trust your customers, and you don't like what they're eating, they're all kind of out to get you. That's a very difficult problem to solve. And I think it requires some real deep work on the leadership team. But to your point, if you if you have 10 customers to call and three of them are really talk and seven of them won't then go deep with the three, wouldn't you love to have more of those people. And if you can connect with them and get what's going on in their world and speak to their language, you can only help, you can only attract more people like that, you know,
42:35
and when we do a lot of that we find there's always a lot of commonalities. So if you are talking to three out of 10, more than likely, the others will probably be very similar in nature, you'll probably hear certain, you know, certain, you know, trends and stuff over and over. And it's just so important to really understand the emotional side of the people that you serve, because that's how they're making their decisions. emotionally.
Mark 43:03
That makes sense. I mean, I I'm very, very, I mean, I cut for some reason, sometimes companies think that they do business with companies. And that's not the case at all, it is only there's always an individual on the other end of the of the line in the conversation whose personal needs you are looking after. And if you're not that far into the conversation, if you don't know what they personally need, what they feel what their emotions are, then you don't know the customer.
43:32
Yeah, I mean, it's great to know, you know, their position, their firma graphics, and all that data stuff. But it's the personal because you know, what, say, somebody you're working with somebody, and you know, their title, you know, their responsibilities, you know, you know, what they buy, or what they purchase, and what happens if, you know, something happened in there, something happened that morning on their way to work, or something happened at their house that really kind of shook them, right? Or they have, they're taking care of like an elderly parent, right? That's, you know, that's really emotional. And if you don't have that human connection with them, and you're just have the business side, that relationships not going to be as strong and that has a tendency to they'll, they'll replace you. So it's really bring in the human factor of what you're doing and really build. I'm not saying that you're best friends with them and all that kind of stuff, because you have to obviously separate business from that, but really understand them as a person beyond the you know, the typical stuff because that will help it for me. I mean, I think that when we do that it makes it in the end is going to make you feel good too. Because then what that is is that you're on more on the go giver side instead of the taker side. And when you have that, you know, when you're genuine and authentic, that's going to speak volumes not only for you personally but that's going to speak volumes for your business. And those people are also referral sources as well. Right. So if they like you, and they know that you're taking care of them in every way, they're more likely to refer you as well. So you have to think about that.
Mark 45:12
Yeah, that's absolutely true. It's also a little bit faith oriented. So I get it. I mean, there's the marketing side is kind of in that business anyway. So marketing is usually more comfortable with laying the groundwork for future sales. The sales team is more like, great for next year's pipeline. We've got sales we we need to close now. And it's sometimes a little bit tricky to get people comfortable with deferring so much fortune into the future.
45:44
Well, my point is, is this, you do this and this is a regular practice, then your pipeline will, will follow suit. Right. So if you're developing those referral relationships, right, or you're developing that now, today, yeah, that you're right, that'll be help you in the long run. But if you're continuing to do that on a regular basis, then that's also going to be in a rolling thing as well. Right. So if it's not happening right now, yeah, it'll probably be more of a long term strategy for you to see that effort. But it should become a practice as well.
Mark 46:20
Yeah. Agreed. So let's talk about tactics. Especially for the for newbies or people who maybe didn't think so hard about marketing. In the past, they've done something. But right now. We have what are the what are the what are the tactics that are low risk, high reward for figuring this kind of thing out?
46:46
low risk, high reward? Oh, that's a loaded question. Because it really depends on the individual client and strategy and target, but what I think a couple archetypes and I. So I would say that if you are, let's say, let's say b2b, right? And you're looking after you're going to try it, let's say you're trying to sell, I don't know computer hardware software or something like that. Right? So it's a very b2b centric, it's very trade centric type of environment. Right? So. So I would say, overall, today, digital activities are less expensive. They can tell you a lot of stuff a lot quicker, right. So if you're a b2b, and you're selling software and hardware, then you and you know your target, then you should maybe possibly look at LinkedIn, and try to one use LinkedIn, because you can build if you have the sales function, right, the Sales Navigator, you can start building your own list right of those people you want to go after. But I would also say that LinkedIn has advertising as well. And it is more expensive. It's about average, eight, eight cents $8 per click, which is high for digital dollars. Yeah, yeah, it's high. So it's more costly. However, you could do some small things and test, because digital enables you to do tests. And if it's not working, and you, you'll see something within the first week or two weeks, you can change it, right. Usually, when you did b2b, you retreat. It's still like direct mail or trade publications and that kind of stuff. And that stuff is like a long term view, you can see it. But what you could do if you're in trade, you could do digital stuff in those trade publications or anything in the trade, which you can throw up and take down as fast. So I kind of think that I think digital is the most cost effective, and the easiest way to see return in the soonest period of time, so you're not wasting your money. Okay,
Mark 48:48
is it crowded right now?
48:50
It's Yeah, it is crowded, however, it depends on it depends on how well you target it. And how well you message about you and why they should buy from you and not somebody else you have to know like we said before, you have to know your your value, you have to know why people buy from you have to message to those pain points. You have to be very succinct on that. It's not hard to figure that out. So I would say that if you're going after not a small niche that is industry specific industry niche, those types of things. But I would also say on that line is to go back to that key account strategy, right? Just get on the phone and start talking to people and figure it out. And you don't even have to be online because that's really going to be what are you going to send me What are you going to talk to me about that could be just a pure collateral electro electro electronic collateral that you send out to them, right? It could be as simple as that through via email. Now, I'm not a proponent of email for prospecting, unless you are, it's more of a warmer lead that you may have talked about his email doesn't work that well, if you're if it's a cold prospect, that's just my perception on it. It hasn't worked. But you can be something as easy as that and just putting some collateral pieces together. Putting a video together a simple video instead of a collateral piece to talk about your efforts and email that it could be as easy as that, right. So if you are a consumer consumers are usually a broader audience, you're going after a much broader audience. And I would say that, I would say that digital works really well. And let me go back to b2b because on digital as well, if you're selling something in a local market, like say, You're like a local transport carrier or something like that, right, you have it or you have a plumbing service or whatever, you can really use online, you could use search. It's called search engine marketing. And you can use have a Google My Business page, you can do Google reviews, you can do Google AdWords, that you can optimize very quick and fast and not spend a lot of money. And you can test and spend a small amounts of media budget already, like $1,000, or something or $500. I never would do anything less than that to waste your money. But you could do those quick to drive. When people are when people actually are looking for what you buy. And they're putting that in there, your ad pops up immediately. That's a great way to drive leads or drive interest from a b2b perspective. Or even if you go to if you're a local company going to the consumer, that's a great tactic to do as well. But I would say that, if you have a broader audience, I would say that, in your consumer products, social media works really, really well. And I'm not talking about creating all these nice contents, you know, posts on your page, I'm talking about really using the Facebook, not the face, but the in the advertising engines on social media today, you can target so granularly on there now to pinpoint your client and only go after them from a geographical perspective, from a lifestyle perspective, demographic perspective, preference perspective, where they shop, you can go after your you can do competitive conquest and go after your competitors. So I think, yeah, so I think today that is the easiest, fastest, and you can test for a little amount of money to get some really learnings on what you should be doing.
Mark 52:16
So there's a lot in the social world, I think a lot of people, like myself even look at social media as a marketing opportunity. But they're probably a lot more ways to think of it but at least for Well, I was thinking to different. If I, if I put LinkedIn and Facebook side by side, it's a two different standard, right? Yeah. And they work very differently. And then there is just the advertising to each of them. And they work very different from each other, but they're paid and in your your effort is in writing, copy. And figuring out your budget and in the target and sort of letting it go and letting it do its thing. And that's important to note. Because the way you maintain that and the way you think about it, it's sort of the opposite of the organic side, which is be seen very content driven, which some people, I mean, that's the stuff that we just you see, and it's easy to envy, and everybody else's looks great. And in both Facebook world, and and, and LinkedIn. So in terms of videos and live events and commentary and being seen. But you sounds like you're saying to start off, you can get some pretty good ROI from the advertising side on both of those,
53:27
I would say yeah, I would say yes, but keep in mind, there's a testing period, right? It has to be all about testing things and figuring out what is resonating most what you know, you know, you need to test language you need to test the list or the targeting, right, you need to do some A B testing, right? You're testing different factors to figure out what is going to work. But um, yeah, I mean, the face of channels, organics, great. But the way that things are right now, even if you're if somebody is a fan of your page, or whatever, through only 3% of those people are going to see anything. So really organic content really now is about your engagement number, right? How much you're engaging. So how much you're not just about pretty content, but how much is that content engaging? And then advertising is where the where the bread and butter is? Absolutely. That's where it's at. So
Mark 54:19
interesting, because it seems like all the glories on the content side. It's not easy stuff. And there are some suits and rock stars out there. Is it is that is that why they just got the glitz because it's got rock stars. It sounds like it's just not the place to start.
54:31
I think that in order to advertise, you have to have some organic content. Because if you're going to advertise on the channels, okay, and you don't have a page, then that's going to be really weird, right? So, so foundational don't feel good. But you don't have to spend a lot of time I would just had a conversation with the pursuit of Oh, yeah, you don't want to try to pursue. That's not that's not like your scenario, right? It's not likely it's the advertising where you should be spending time and energy and then You also a great way if you want to expand from them a great way is through influence influence right? So influencers bloggers and all that kind of stuff because they have a huge influence.
Mark 55:09
Okay, so influencers let's talk about that that's even another channel so how do influencers I get from the b2c side you know drink my water? Yeah, that's where this jewelry that's very straightforward. How does influencer affect the b2b world?
55:23
I think if you look at that you have to look at thought leaders, right? So you have to look at establishing yourself as and the people in your company as thought leaders in that space, that's the way that you do it on LinkedIn, it's not necessarily using an influencer or using a third party. It's how are you as a company? How is you are the CEO? Or how is the individuals in the C suite? How are they being perceived as thought leaders or you know, being you know, being a thought leaders in the industry and or what you're doing? So that's how you influence individuals on LinkedIn consumer, yeah. influencers? And here, I am an ambassador, and yeah, whatever you're talking about, but on the b2b side, it's more about who you are. There's always this thing about companies that you have your company brands, and then you have your personal brand, right? So if you look at Steve Jobs, I know it's a huge company. But if you look at him, he had a personal brand. And he also Apple has its own brand, and they kind of are they're cohesive in some aspects. But if you have a person, so it's kind of like asking the stakeholder and some CEOs are not comfortable with this, right, they just want to be in the background, which is fine. But you need somebody in your company that's credible. That's usually at a senior level, somebody that's going to be the spokesperson for your company, that people can look to that that person's influencing things, and that's influencing the industry. Because if you're doing that, then that helps the perception of your company as well. So that's,
Mark 56:51
yeah, that's, that's important. A lot of times when we're establishing the role of visionary So that's this thing as well. visionary versus integrator, both the critical, singular seeming leaders, if you're not familiar with the term integrator, think of CO president, but is this really the glory? What the visionary is more than spotlight glory position that your Steve Jobs, people didn't know who Tim Cook was until he took over. But Tim Cook really functions that integrator kind of behind the scenes. And so understanding the visionary relationship, if the visionary of the company is going to be that visible thought leader, because I'm finding that not every not every company needs that or is appropriate to that, that the way it's consumed isn't quite consumed through thought leadership, the way some rapidly innovating industries can love to have visionaries show up. So I think that's important, important question to ask is, does your business actually I want to, that's what I want to catch. I don't want you to think that you have to be a thought leader from the stage visionary in your industry, it might not work. So so so what you're what you're recommending is a possible possible
58:04
tactic. It's not for everybody, everything. We talked about what we're talking about today, everything isn't good. Everything isn't for everybody. It really depends on your individual circumstance. So yeah,
Mark 58:17
yeah. So if there's anything in marketing that I want people to take away from my years of trying stuff, is that it doesn't work for everybody, it doesn't matter what it is, you you have to take us to it and that's where I really wanted to go back to strategy because it was kind of the opening question start with strategy is that if you copy your friends marketing plan, like it's just not gonna work never gonna work and and business owners are just really rarely take the time to get educated enough on the strategy to know the differences between what what you know, what does their customer need? And and maybe it's not even just the education is the comfort to know that hey, you know, my customer really doesn't go online, my customer really does go to X planes and in my friends digital strategy that makes them millions isn't gonna do anything for me because their customers in a different place. And that's, it sounds so obvious, but I don't think people do that that much. And they do say like, Hey, you know, I want to be like Steve Jobs like, well, your industry doesn't have Steve Jobs. You can't make that a thing. Artificially. Like, if you weren't already doing that successfully, it's probably not a switch you're gonna flip on. So you gotta have to be real honest with where you're at and what your what your customer needs and what your industry is doing.
59:45
Yeah, I mean, like I said earlier is you are who you are. And you need to be you, your company is what it is. So you need to be the best of you, not the best of somebody else. You know, and do what you need to do for your company and for your clients. For your prospects, yeah.
Mark 1:00:03
Yeah. And if the risk of contradicting myself, I think if you've always felt like you're the Steve Jobs of your industry, despite nobody looking anything like you, I wouldn't talk you out of trying. I mean, you might be the the person, the individual to totally revolutionize your industry. But I would also say, put it in budget, make sure you understand the consequences of your spending and planning and make sure you know, a B test it what works and figure out your own formula in a measured enough capacity that you don't bet everything on revolutionising in a way that won't work. Give yourself some patients time. So thinking back about the last 12 weeks, what's different now what do you what do you what have you learned? What do you really passionate about? For companies who are trying to adjust the last? Yeah, so
1:01:01
for me, in terms of what I'm seeing a lot, I mean, it's just the whole, my, you know, my passion is, is the is, and I don't want to use the word strategy again. But I guess all you say something, my passion is, is to really get the clients to focus, where they really should be focusing, because everyone was in survival mode, and then there's, you know, they're doing all this stuff, and they're not really looking at it is kind of my passion is is to say, you know what, let's look at all the moving pieces, let's try to figure this out. And let's, you know, and work to so I think, for me, you know, with clients, and just other people that you know, because I am very involved in a lot of other organizations and things like that, and groups, and it's just passionate about just letting people know, it's okay. Right? It's okay. And this is just another thing that's been thrown at us, it's not going to last forever. So we need to focus our energies on what we can control, right. And we can control our business, and we can control what we're going to do. And we can control where we're going to be and what we're going to say. So for me, I think right now, from what I do, and from my agency, and just as a person is just embrace it. And let's just start moving forward the best that we can and don't worry about stuff we cannot worry about. And just kind of let's get it done.
Mark 1:02:26
That's, that's so I love that. And this idea of not worrying about things we can't control and letting go of that. That's actually an exercise I'll be seeing my clients through depending on if they're stuck, they're kind of overwhelmed. Go through a list of like, what what can you control? What can't you control? What do we need to focus on? And it's a lot I think, I think it's fair to offer some compassion to yourself as a marketing leader, as a, as a business owner, is anybody in the process to say this is a lot. And that that's we're all a little bit taxed, even maybe more so than we think maybe we think we're having an easier time than we are, even when we don't think we're having that easy time with it. It's truly a lot of uncertainty. But getting back to the basics and staying focused on what you're trying to do, who are you that hasn't changed, right? You know, what you're going to the impact, you're going to make that change. And if and if you look at your three year picture, and you're when you're planning your core values and your core target or core focus, rather. And there's something in there, that doesn't resonate right now, that might that might be a clue that it never really did. And it wasn't really you and you might have might have been borrowing somebody else's goals or advice. So that was just a really a wonderful time to clean house, on your expectations for yourself and get clear on what's most important as an individual and therefore, as an entrepreneur, that this just flows directly into the business, making sure it's beating on all cylinders. So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground, a lots and lots of digests, and I think it's as good a spot to end is any, is there anything you want to add any passionate pleas you'd like to share with our listeners, um,
1:04:10
the only thing I would say on that line of just what we just talked about is take a deep breath and do something that you love and be a resource for somebody else or help somebody else because that's going to make you feel good as well.
Mark 1:04:24
You know, that's so beautiful and so perfect. I agree 100% to help somebody out in line and and help feel useful, and that'll help you be stronger. Thanks so much. So it's time to wrap it up. So, Liz, if people wanted to find you, what's the easiest way for them to do that?
1:04:41
The easiest way for you to do that is you can give me a call and 745950963 Yes, it is not a local number, but I am here local and, or you can check my website out and it's got all my contact information on it. It's marketing IWA calm
Mark 1:05:00
Local for you is Texas San Antonio. So when the remote podcast world it's he have a conversation with people and the each of them might not know where the other person's talking to people in Houston, you're in San Antonio, you know, I've talked to all over the world so. And it will be the number if you can put that in the show notes and the URL and all that it's easy to find if people want to reach out to you. And I'm looking forward to the next time we get to chat. This is really good conversation. I think there's a lot in here to listen to over and over again about how to really make this make your marketing count. But that's it for today for everybody. So, as I mentioned, please don't forget to subscribe, share with your friends who can use the information and do leave feedback. It makes a difference and it helps us get better and help people understand what what's out there. And we will see you next time on you're doing it wrong with Mark Anderson. Thanks so much. Hey, thank you.
VO 1:05:56
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe, go to leary.c