Sought-after business leader, executive team coach, investor, business builder, and Certified EOS Implementer®, these are just some of the many hats that Mark Abbott wears. He’s also the visionary/founder of Ninety.io, a company that provides cloud-based services and awareness tools for companies running on EOS®. With nearly four decades of experience with early stage, small and mid-sized companies, his passion lies in helping people build extraordinarily productive, humane, and resilient companies. Furthermore, his entrepreneurial spirit has enabled him to help successfully build dozens of organizations.
All exceptional long-standing businesses start with a clear vision and a desire to make life better in some specific way. Great visionaries are not just "Idea Generators". The truth is we don’t need more awesome ideas, we need them to be tied down strongly to purpose and passion. Join Mark Abbott and I for today’s episode as we get into the nuts and bolts of visionary excellence, purpose, the process of simplification, and thinking, feeling, and doing.
1:28 What makes an excellent visionary
8:10 How a compelling purpose puts energy in the tank
15:33 Mark talks about finding his North star in making the world a better place
18:38 How and when to reassess and make some changes if what you’re doing is no longer working
23:00 Why clarity separates great visionaries from struggling visionaries
29:47 Mark shares what it is that got him into founding ninety,io
37:43 Why simplifying business matters
52:57 Mark’s passionate plea to entrepreneurs
“Innovation requires three types of people: a thinker, a feeler, and a doer. No one is all three types, so you’ve got to decide what you’re really great at and enlist a great team, all the other pieces, to ultimately do all things really well.”
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
MARK ABBOTT
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mabbott44
https://markabbott.global/
May 19, 2021 - Wednesday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
visionaries, people, business, purpose, company, software, thinking, life, conversation, organization, employees, eos, mark, terms, tool, days, years, ideas, talk, running
SPEAKERS
Mark Leary, VO, Mark
Mark Leary 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson, Leary and my name is Mark, and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help you get control of your business. And one of the ways I do that is by letting you listen on these crazy conversations with a couple of folks geeking out on stuff that matters to them. And so let's get right to it today. One of the things that I think is so interesting is in the entrepreneurial world, we love to talk about visionary and visionary health and all that and I've got a guide, I want to talk to you today about visionary health and in what purpose and things that matter. A guy who has an entrepreneurial in so many ways a coach, a business leader. He's the CEO of ninety.io, if you're familiar with that software for companies running on EOS, but I just want to get right into this conversation. And Mark Abbott, How are you this morning?
Mark 00:58
I'm doing awesome. Mark, how are you doing?
Mark Leary 01:00
I'm doing great. And I thought a lot about our conversation yesterday, and what does it take to be a visionary today? Because I think that we love to talk about Steve Jobs, and Ilan musk for a lot of reasons, because they're amazing. And everybody knows them. And they're doing cool stuff. But really, what does it take to be a visionary in you know, a typical realistic mid market, you know, lack of a better term every day kick ass business? What does it take these days?
Mark 01:28
Yeah, I mean, it's obviously a great question. And, and it's evolving, right? I think that it takes a lot of different things. And at the core of it all, fundamentally, though, is a vision, right? So, you know, visionaries, and leaders, by definition are leading people. And we need to lead people to a place that they want to go. We want to make the journey, something that is, is not just memorable, right? But it's it stretches us, we enjoy it, we believe in where we're going. We love the journey from here to there. We hope that when we get there, there's another journey to go on, sort of to the next place. But fundamentally, like visionary means we've got I've got a vision, as a visionary, I have a vision. And I think those visions need to be out five to 10 years, right? It's can't be a vision for tomorrow, or a year from now or two years from now, it needs to be a vision, that's five to 10 years out, it's crystal clear in our heads, that we can tell in a very clear way to other people, we can not only give them the bigger sense for the vision, but we can tell the story why this vision matters, how we're making life better. And then I'll go to that one, right, making life better. I believe that our vision needs to be compelling in terms of how are we going to make life better? And by life better? I mean, a lot of things right? How do we make life better for our clients? How do we make life better for the world? How do we make life better for our employees? How are we going to make life better, frankly, for society, right? If you I talk about when you're visionaries need to be thinking about the all the stakeholders that are going to be involved in this journey. And if you think about stakeholders, I think there are seven types of stakeholders. In no particular order, although there obviously is mean, the first thing is clients, right? So we need to be doing something to make their life better, right. And then the second thing is we can't make their lives better without producing a product or a service. And to produce the product or service, we obviously need employees, we need other people to help us make this turn this vision into reality. And then we you know, we also, in addition to that I like to think separate the employees from the leadership team, because they're a different cat. And so we need to go out and find this leadership team who's also totally invested in this vision. So night, right, we're down to the next thing. And then in addition to your clients, your employees, the leadership team, you've got these partners that are going to help you right, it could be vendors excetera. And then you have strategic partners who are like in it with you. So that's another group. And then we have society, and we have investors and so they're seven stakeholders. And ultimately, you want them to all be committed with you. Ultimately, you want to have these high trust relationships with all seven of your stakeholders. And then you know, you want to move from here to there. And the clearer you are on where there is, the faster you'll get there. Um, you know, a lot of people aren't super clear on their vision. And so they're listening to their state. They're listening to their employees or they're listening to their customers or listened to their investors or listened to their partners, and they're zigzagging back and forth because they're not super clear. So I think the great visionaries are clear. They tell a compelling story, that they surround themselves with high trust relations. chips. And and and they turn the vision into reality.
Mark Leary 05:04
So one of the things he said i thought was cool, making life better, yes resonates with this idea of purpose. And when I say to a business or a leader, I like to work with purpose driven companies, it leads one to believe that there's there there's companies that are not purpose driven. Right. And people react to it as though that's true. But is that true? Is there such a thing as a business that doesn't have a purpose or a leader? That doesn't have a purpose?
Mark 05:34
Yeah, unfortunately, I do think that's true. Now, it's to varying degrees. So if you're thinking about a business that is, you know, just all about, there's probably different levels of purpose, right. So, you know, if you're thinking about a business that just is a lawn mowing business, and your purpose is to mow lawns, right? Is that a purpose that, that that you've been able to articulate? And how that makes life better for everyone that's involved in this thing? And I think that a lot of people don't necessarily get into how does this make life better? And then really focus on making sure that they're making life better for all the associated stakeholders? So I, you know, I think, I think it's possible to find the purpose, but I don't think people think about it as deeply as a lot of people think about it as deeply and visionaries think about as deeply as they should. How are you fundamentally making life better? And so, you know, to your point, no, I like to say, people, you don't make money because you want to make money. You make money, because people value what it is. You do. Yeah. So you could say that, if people are buying it, you're serving a purpose. So Right, right, if you that there's purpose, but it's little P versus big P.
Mark Leary 07:03
That's interesting, because I was thinking if profit is measure of value, and you don't know your purpose, your profit is accidental, lucky.
Mark 07:17
Well, supply and demand, to some extent, right?
Mark Leary 07:21
Maybe your purpose is borrowed, maybe you are unconsciously copying someone else's model that has inherent purpose. And it has
Mark 07:30
to work. Yes. Because the nature of that particular market space.
Mark Leary 07:35
That's interesting. So that My mind goes to work like, Okay, if you wake up on Monday morning, and your list or a Wednesday when this podcast gets released, and you think, oh, I don't have the purpose that I wish I did. You got two options, I think and correct me on this, you can say, I have a purpose that has nothing to do with what I'm doing. And I'm going to discover it and put it on the road. Or I've inherited a purpose. Let me let me cultivate it. Let me find some real way to take it to the next level.
Mark 08:10
Yeah, I'm just thinking it's even more complicated than that. Right? Because, you know, part of the reason why purpose is it matters, right? We get a whole discussion about things mattering, right? So part of the reason that purpose matters, is because if you've got a really compelling purpose, it puts energy in the tank, right? You're not you're not just sort of going through the motions, right? You believe in what you're doing. You're excited by what you're doing, you're bringing energy and that energy is contagious. Right. And back to your example about waking up in the morning. You know, I unfortunately, think a lot of people are just going through the motions, right? And so instead of driving at 90 miles per hour, you know, they're driving 10 or 20, right? And they're not into it, they don't really connect it to, to anything that really values the value. They're just they're just just calling it in, and everybody around them. You know, it depends on how obviously how long they've been playing the game of work and, and getting things done. But, you know, people around them can feel it. People know, right, we've got this Geiger counter in our brain or it's in our soul, or it's in our heart or where it is. But we got a Geiger counter. We know when people are calling it in, and they don't really care about what they're doing. And by the way, that applies to visionaries. It applies to leaders. It's it, it goes all the way up and down. You know, the organization in some places.
Mark Leary 09:52
Yeah, that's, I think that's exactly right. And so that leadership energy comes from Having that purpose for the organization and having a purpose for yourself. And so we're talking about the visionary. Your landscaping business has a purpose. Maybe we'll just for this argument, say like its purpose is to be the best way possible, you as an individual have a purpose. Hopefully they align. But if they don't, that's a problem. And you need to and so any leaders I talked to anywhere on the leadership team, we need what's right for the business, and we need what's right for you, we need both, hopefully, they're aligned, but if they're not, we got to call that out and get both of those on their track to their best future.
Mark 10:40
Yeah, and sometimes back to the visionary, right, it, you know, the people are kind of trying to do their best, right. They like the company like that the industry they're in, they like what they do for a living, right? Whether they're marketing or sales or customer service, or operations, it whatever, right, finance, HR, we go on, but, you know, the visionaries calling it in the integrators calling it in, they're all calling it in. And so you know, it's just another day at the job.
Mark Leary 11:10
Yeah, one of the things I'm really harping on these days is in in client sessions, we're talking about that concept of G WC, which if you're not familiar, is get it one it capacity to do it. That's the three criteria for being in the right seat in the organization. I really pause on W and I say, want it is not willing. Lots of people is a W right? But it's not the same thing. If you're willing to do it. That's great. That's loyal. That's a contribution. But that's not what we're after. We're after people who say this is awesome. I want this this is on my list of things that I want my bucket list, my future, my aspirations. And everybody, especially the visionary has to have a big w with the one.
Mark 11:57
Yeah, it's funny. So this won't be a BLS, pure,
Mark Leary 12:03
right. tell anybody just between you and me. But
Mark 12:05
yeah, so I talked about GW c squared. All right. So we know GW C is it applies to the seat. But it's squared, when it applies to the company, I get what this company is all about. I want to be a part of this company. And I have the capacity to go whatever speed this company wants to go, right. So if this company is going 90 miles per hour, I love playing this game at 90 miles per hour, right? So GW c squared is when everybody gets their seat, they want to be in their seat, they had the capacity to do that. That's great, right? But it's when it's squared, that things really go fast, in a great way.
Mark Leary 12:45
That's that starts with a visionary.
Mark 12:47
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Mark Leary 12:50
Did you ever have any times in your life where you were misaligned with the business? You were trying to run? And lead?
12:58
Yeah.
12:59
Okay. All right. Thanks for being vulnerable there. What was that? Like? How did you encounter that? It sucks.
Mark 13:07
Right. Actually,
Mark Leary 13:09
I had that really badly with one of my businesses as well. So let's talk about you first, I'm happy to share as well.
Mark 13:14
Well, I've had it numerous times in my career. Right. So, um, I mean, jeez, you know, a year do you want to go to, but um, you know, I started in banking, and then, you know, I had stints where I really loved what I was doing, and then the stance was like, right, this is I just don't agree. Right? I didn't agree with a strategy. I didn't agree with how we were doing things. I just didn't agree about a lot of things with a lot of things. And, and I, you know, honestly, I had that happen, let's just say, on numerous occasions, and, and it's tough, because deep down, I'm very competitive, right? So I like to win. But I like to win from a, you know, sort of broad perspective, right? I like to see the team win. I like to see us when, and if I think that we're not doing things that make sense, whether it's, you know, there's so many facets to making sense, right? It's, you know, purpose. Sense. Is it values sense? Is it strategy sense, right? Is it value proposition sense? There's a bunch of different things. And yeah, I've had numerous times where I've been struggling with a component of what we were all about.
Mark Leary 14:40
How do you first recognize it and then what do you do?
Mark 14:45
Well, you recognize it because you're not as happy as you want to be right? You recognize it because you're you're either butting your head against the, you know, you're knocking your head against the wall. I mean, I could literally go through each of my use cases in my head and then you know, it's interesting, like I said, you're, you know, someone like me who's very competitive. And I would say, you know, has a pretty clear Northstar for what matters to me. You know, you talk about it and you say, Hey, I'm struggling with this and you know, these are the things I think we need to do and, and you have the conversations, and then you either figure out how to get on the same page? Or what's
Mark Leary 15:30
your Northstar? What's your Northstar? Make it tangible as possible?
Mark 15:33
Oh, lots of things. Right. So I deeply believe in making the world better. It's something I think about every single day, I actually asked myself most days, how did I do making the world better today, and there's a lot of components to that, right. It's not just business wise, it's being a human, it's being a husband, it's being a dad. It's silly things like, you know, at a restaurant, I over-tip, you know, and I normal tip with regular service, and then I really over- tip a lot because I just want to feel like you know, I'm making the world a better place in a lot of different ways. So making the world a better place is a huge one. Another one is, I believe in being authentic, right. And so you know, the Mark that is on this podcast is the same Mark with my son, it's the same Mark that sits with my colleagues. Right. So that's another thing for me in terms of Northstar, I believe that, you know, kind of no plays, you know, a bus knob, Wow, I've never, you know, the whole notion of, I'm here to make life better. I've got gifts I was given. So I need to take advantage of those gifts, right? I need to appreciate and continue to evolve and become a better version of the best version of myself. So I'm a constant learner. I, you know, want to make sure that I have a decent sense for things and I'm listening to people that I have, you know, that I'm caring for people in a way that is genuine back to authentic, I want to invest in people. It's not just about me. I mean, there's a bunch of stuff
Mark Leary 17:28
I'm seeing more of a North Star constellation than a North Star but it definitely paints a picture, right? So that I like that metaphor as well, because the star just a point there, like there's an actual picture of the of the three dimensions you're thinking of there. So you can test against that. And I remember trying to compare like Steve Jobs Stanford address, which is one of the best, you know, YouTube reasonable leadership things out there. I think he talks about if there's too many days in a row, when I feel like it's not working, I'm not enjoying this, then I got to go reassess and make some changes. Yeah, but the thing that has always stuck in my mind is how many days is too many? Because I think a lot of people will get used to suffering, especially entrepreneurs who get into a business that's tough for 1234 years, that habit of accepting shitty days, gets to be a little bit routine. And knowing what's the last day of or the first day of making a change, I don't think is crystal clear. How do you know when you've gone too far? Let me think of a specific example. What was it like when you're looking in the mirror? Like, you know what this is? This is 24 days of not liking this? And that's or is it 240 days? Or what is it for you?
Mark 18:38
Yeah, you know, it, the reality is, it's gotten shorter and shorter, as I've gotten older and older. Right. So, you know, in my younger years, it, you know, you're like, I'm gonna grind this out until I am in a position where I've got my options up, and I can make a change, right? And then, you know, you're thinking about, okay, so what do I need to do in order to get to the position where I feel good about being able to make a change? And I'll be, you know, I know, podcasts or conversations like this, you want to be vulnerable, right? You know, I was one of my stints in life. I kept posting, I knew very early on, this was not right for me. But I kept rationalizing and I rationalized around economics right there certain events that were coming. And I'm like, I got to get past this event, right because all of a sudden I'll have an
Mark Leary 19:51
exit or commission machine
Mark 19:52
like that, right? I'll have more money. I have more security makes it easier for me to make the move
Mark Leary 19:58
or anybody who has any kind of sales. or sales leadership role is likely to have a whole economic system trying to do exactly what you described trying to keep people from departing with those economic incentives.
Mark 20:09
Yeah. And and so, you know, and so I would rationalize waiting for that next milestone. And then all of a sudden, another milestone comes up, right? you rationalize waiting for that. And so I went, you know, at one of my jobs, I went way too long, rationalizing. I just did, right. And it was all around economics. It was around scarcity. It was around, you know, because the older you get, especially if you're really entrepreneurial, you know, the closer you get to be unemployable. And I knew I was on the verge of becoming unemployable. And I looked at scarcity as opposed to No, now this just means I gotta go do it. Right, I got to go be the entrepreneur printer, I've got to go do my thing. I gotta go find my passion. Right? I've got to, I've got to go now. And I took too long to do that. Honestly, I was an entrepreneur, you know, that. I think Gino probably talks about this in LEAP. Yeah, I came out of school and joined a big bank. And it was apparent, in the first bunch of months, that I was not really well suited to be a banker. And yet I went 25 plus years, oh, my God, that
Mark Leary 21:28
is not two years is 2025.
Mark 21:31
But the truth is that I actually never really had a boss because I became really good at what I was doing. And everybody got out of my way. So you know, so, I mean, the story is I was 36 years old and running a multibillion dollar business, I was an entrepreneur. And if you look back at my entire banking stint, people got out of my way, they let me do things. They let me build my teams, they let me have my culture, they let me do all these things. And so, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, for a long time, I got to do it my way. And you know, you have stints where people are fighting you and you fight through it. But yeah, several decades where even though I was an employee, I was really, right, running my own little thing.
Mark Leary 22:23
So let's pull that back to visionaries. today. I think visionaries running businesses, at any day, literally, today, are doing that for any number of reasons. They just got fired, and they're starting the new venture, they've been promoted through an organization that people are leaving, and now they're running it. That could be the child of the founder, or they could be anything in between. They've started a business in the last 2,3,4,5,10 years, and they're running it all those various states. What are you seeing that separates the great visionaries from the from the struggling visionaries?
Mark 23:00
Clarity, right? It's the great visionaries have a vision for where they want to see the company go in five to 10 years. It's compelling, it's clear, they can articulate it, they believe in it every single day, they get up and they want to do the hard charge towards it. They know, whether it's the whole business model, right. It's around their people. It's around their value proposition or the three uniques, so as we would say, within EOS, it's around their target market. I mean, they're just bloody clear. Right. And then it's just a question of going out and you know, to use a Dan Sullivan term, right, it's going out and getting the who's to help you make it all happen.
Mark Leary 23:53
Do you see people so broken that they should give up or that they do give up?
Mark 24:01
When we're saying people are we talking visionaries, visionaries.
24:10
I see.
Mark 24:13
So it's an interesting question, right? Because when I think of visionaries, I think people are sitting in the visionary seat, but who aren't visionaries. Right. There's a lot of that, right? Yeah. There's a lot of that. And so are they broken? I don't think I use the term broken. I think they, they may just be not as clear. Right? For whatever reason, right? They don't really have this clear and compelling sense for where they want things to be in five to 10 years. And so last isn't the right term, but they're just not as focused. They're just not as like laser-focused on getting from X to Z. And as a result of that, you know, the companies are zigzagging back to that term I used earlier, right? They're zigzagging forward, and they're losing the velocity that clarity provides.
Mark Leary 25:11
Yeah, it seems like varying degrees, the varying intensity of a visionary type animal in the visionary seat, there can be a real gap between what the organization expects, or what that visionary expects of themselves, and where they are. And I worry sometimes when somebody kind of gets into that seat, they read Rocket Fuel, they start comparing themselves to Elon Musk and Steve Jobs, they're like, I don't feel anything like that. I want visionaries in that spot to say, this is going to take some time. And it's going to be okay, if we set, you know, we're going to go inward, we're going to have some hard conversations and reflection, I'm going to do some self discovery, and we're going to figure out what matters. And I do think it's that starts with asking really hard questions about is this the right direction? Is this the wrong direction. And making sure we're not just like you said, zigzagging but it could be just jerking the wheel trying to make some sort of dramatic impact that's random and chaotic. You coach people through that process of, Hey, you know, you want to be on the top of Everest, but like, we're not even a base camp, like, let's just let's just figure out how to hike.
Mark 26:26
Well, so there's a couple different pieces do this, right? It' if they genuinely do have Everest in mind, and they can see it, and they really want to get to their you know, people like you and me and and other coaches that are out there, we can help really help those people figure out where they're deficient, and what they need to do and sort of assess, right, what they should be prioritizing in terms of getting their act together, so that they can go and scale that mountain. The people that I struggle with are the ones who, you know, don't even know where they want to go. They just they own a business, right, they own a business, and, you know, they understand the economics of the business, they know they need to get customers, they know they got a value proposition, they need to have, you know, their value proposition. They know, you know, they basically get the industry, but you know, they just don't, it's just calling it in, right, everybody's just calling it in. And as a result back to velocity. They're, they're going at a pace. And you know, they're oftentimes there are companies, you know, on their left and their right, that are clear, or that do have more energy that are bringing more to the game that are changing the way that the landscape is the competitive landscape. And they're getting out-hustled, right? They're getting out-sold, they're getting outplayed. And those are the ones I struggle with, to be honest with you as a coach.
Mark Leary 28:13
Yeah, that reminds me early on in my career, which was it related, people would say, hey, should I get into it, and they were trying to get an it because it looked like it was, you know, lucrative for that as a career to get into. And I was like, man, look around the people that I'm working with, and if they love this, they would do it for free. Many of them do. You cannot compete with them. And so I learned the opposite corollary, which is you should not get into the paperclip business. You shouldn't do it. Unless you're obsessed with paperclips, and then you should absolutely be in the paperclip business. No, if you're
Mark 28:49
well, and if you're a visionary, you're obsessed with paperclips. And you're like, and I can make these so much better. Yeah, right. That, right? And I know how to and I can see it right, I can see where the paper clips gonna be in three or five or 10 years, right? That's the double thing, right? It they're obsessed. They love the industry. They're interested in it, you know, they're there. They're reading about it on you know, Saturday morning, Sunday morning, whatever, right? It's just cool stuff for them. It's part of what interests them about life.
Mark Leary 29:28
So let's talk about the software business, I want to make it real tangible. So and I just hit a nerve with me because I know it's just a software business. It's a web page. But that's not how you see it. So, when you when you think about ninety.io your visionary passion is what?
Mark 29:47
Yeah, so we you know, the whole idea behind ninety.io is 15 years in the making and you know, the big, I used to sit on a bunch of boards and as chairman of the board. And you know, I'd meet with the companies every quarter. And obviously I'd meet more often than that, but every quarter, right, you'd be working on on their plans and thinking things through. And, you know, having run a business and having invested in 100 plus companies, having been one of those guys who started to read, you know, Drucker, and you know, I read Delta last when it first came out, I'm dating myself, right? So this has got to be back in the in the late 80s, right. And I was a huge fan of Drucker, I was a Deming guy, right, which is really interesting. We don't talk as much about Deming today as, as we did 20 years ago. But to me, he was amazing, tough to read, write his books, but the way he thought about things was just eye opening for me. And so, you know, before I was 30 years old, I was a student of the art and science of business. And so, you know, what happened to me is I ended up taking all this stuff that I was learning, and I started to apply it to my own business, I started to use this lens to literally look at companies that we were lending to, or investing in, and you'll fast forward. And I'm, you know, in a private equity firm, and the senior partner, I'm sitting on a bunch of boards, and I'm like, guys, this is not that complicated. You need to do X, Y, and Z. And I'd come back and they'd say, yeah, yeah. And I come back the next quarter. And guess what? They didn't do X, Y, and Z. And it got really frustrating. I'm like, I don't know, right? I was pretty good. As a player, it seems like I'm not so good as a coach. Maybe I need to write a book. And so I started to think about writing a book, I put together the chapters, I started working on it. It's called connecting the dots. And then fast forward just a few years of doing a bunch of different things. And I discovered traction. And I'm like, that's my book. No, yeah, Gino knows this story, right. And so I discovered traction, it was literally being used by a company I invested in. And I'm like, Huh. And so what I wanted to do is not only did I want to do the connecting the dots, but I wanted to build the software. And so I went and I met with Gino and I talked to Don, I'm like I you know, I love what you guys did the books much better I would have ever written. I'll give you that. But do you have any interest in doing the software? And it was like, we tried that it's not us. It's not our core competency. It's not you know, my passion kind of a thing. Can't remember whether it was gene or Don who shared this with me. But I was like, okay, is it cool if I join the community and do the software thing, right? So what was the vision, the visions never really changed in the US is amazing. It's providing the foundation for this right, which is, I believe that great businesses are businesses that are productive, humane and resilient. So all three things. And so kind of keep in mind that each
Mark Leary 33:06
of those is kind of I want to slow that down because those just roll off the tongue but there's a lot they're productive. Something comes out the other side, humane, conscious of the consequences in a human world.
Mark 33:20
And what was the last one? resilient,
Mark Leary 33:22
resilient, oh, man, after a pandemic, that's an important one.
Mark 33:27
Right. And, you know, and in, frankly, you know, all three, literally for 15 years have been extraordinarily important to me. Now, why? So think back to what I said, I started in banking back in the early 80s, I started doing workouts, I saw crappy companies, right? And I saw what happens with a crappy company, right? What happens is you end up having lenders who lose money investors who lose money, employees, right? I mean, I saw it up close and personal. And I actually was a really good workout lender. 24, 25 years old, I was literally chairman of credit committees, I was on the boards of some of the companies that we've lent to. So I was actually pretty good at it. But, you know, if I didn't want to spend my career working out of bad stuff, I wanted to really be involved in helping people build great stuff. And so that's kind of why I got into really wanting to understand the art and science of business building. But you know, the three legs of the stool has been in my head for a long, long time. And as you pointed out the resilience stuff, actually, you know, that wasn't selling, right. That was like, I get it, right? People get it but you know, ultimately, no, it's really really bloody important, right? Because you know, to borrow from Mike Tyson. We're all going to get punched in the face. Yeah, right. And if you're a leader, right, you need to build a company that can survive this. Now, I could spend hours talking about this. And you were saying, you asked me Mark about in my career was, were there times when I, you know, was grinding through some stuff because my people who were important decision makers got involved in what I was building. And I didn't agree. So I was recruited by a hedge fund to build a next generation commercial finance company. And from day one, I was focused on making it a resilient organization, because I had been around for a bunch of downturns. And I wanted to make sure that we built this thing to survive a downturn. And I spent a lot of time designing the business model to survive a downturn. And I won't explain, I won't bore you with how we did that. But it was a really important thing for me, because I wanted to make sure that I never had to fire anyone that was a core, you know, part of our organization. And so we were very thoughtful around this, we split a lot of time into it. And so resiliency is always in the back of my head and I think part of it is, when you're in financial services, when you see what can happen to over-levered companies, you see what happens to lost companies, when you see what happens to the, like I said earlier, to the various stakeholders that are involved, you're like, that sucks. And I want to help people not have to grind through or worse, those experiences. So yeah, all three things have been really, really important to me. And so when we went about designing our software, we've been envisioning it from the very beginning, how do we help people build great companies? And you know what, I think it's extraordinarily productive, humane and resilient, you need to do all three things really, really well. And I know that software, specially where it's going, can help immensely. I mean, EOS is, is brilliant, it is foundational. But there's other things that we can do that make it that elevate the quotient of those three things.
Mark Leary 37:27
So how are you doing that with I mean, right now, you've got the EOS language and tools in there. And with your value, an added layer is what it's communication? It's your what are the things that you that you? I don't know? Yeah. What's the secret sauce that you're bringing to the table?
Mark 37:43
Well, so the secret sauce is, you know, if you think about let's go to EOS, what it was 10 years ago, right? Which is, you know, you have these, let's call it 20 tools, right? Obviously, five foundational, and they were all, you know, basically paper based, right? And so, you know, what were the big first value add is integrating all of that. So, as an example, you know, I'm a huge believer in quarterly conversations. And so, you know, our quarterly conversation tool pulls the core values from the VTL. Right, it pulls the roles and responsibilities from the accountability chart, it pulls in the percentage of to-do's done from the meeting tool, it pulls in the measurables. From the scorecard, right? You know, it pulls in the rocks, obviously, from the rocks tool, right? It pulls in the five things a great manager does, and five things a great leader does, and it puts it all together. So that when you're sitting down having a quarterly conversation, right, everything's right there. And so you can have, you know, you can have a database, right. Back based, great conversation. And what's happening during that conversation. Number one, obviously, we're reinforcing the core values, because we're talking about, you know, plus, plus minus minus, like you will know, right? We're talking about the roles and responsibilities. And in fact, what's happening there is we're looking at the roles and responsibilities and all of a sudden, you're both sitting there going, wait a second, these aren't your roles and responsibilities anymore. So it constantly keeps the accountability chart up to date. Right. And that's a really important thing. And you know, without this tool, right, how often are accountability charts updated, right? So it reinforces that subtle but cool, right? To do's. I believe to-do's are agreement. I believe core values are agreements, I believe measurables the targets below which we all agree there's an issue in our agreements, obviously, rocks are agreements, how are we doing in terms of living up before our agreements? So it just, it just takes everything when you put it into software. And it makes it so much real, more real, it makes it so much more accessible, right? How many times have you had a conversation during your quarterly with your senior leadership teams? Where you were sitting there talking about someone? And we're like, well, you know, are they above the bar below the bar? And you get this squishy conversation? And you're like, what did you do in terms of plus plus, but you know, core values, and they're like, wow, and you're like, let's just pull up the quarterly conversation like, Joe, dude, you gave more pluses. There's no bloody way they were all pluses, right? I would argue that there's a negative there and three plus minuses. And then you kind of and then all of a sudden, right? So there's so many things, that the software when you integrate it together does to take mastery, make it easier, make it more transparent. And then I'm just beginning right, there's a bunch of different things that it does that paper-based tools can't do for you. I'll give you one more example. Right, right. So rocks, right. So we have in our software in EOS, you know, bless them, right? Didn't really love the fact that we put milestones into the software, that right and so, but you know, what our milestone feature does is, it's connected to a texting feature. So, seven days before your milestones are due, guess what you get to do, you get a text, you get a reminder. And so you know, we reduce the probability of the procrastination that typically takes place when it comes to getting rocks done. So you know, the reality of it is if you want to cut to the chase, right? Our churn during COVID. For are, you know, you know, the numbers risen right. So 4000 2000, whatever companies that were running on it during COVID was less than 5% annualized on a paying user, paying seat basis. And, you know, a lot more than 5% of companies struggled and had, you know, had major league problems during COVID. But the software, right, especially in work from anywhere, enabled everybody to stay together to communicate to make sure we're all on the same page. It just, you know, took the level of discipline that was needed to make it through the pandemic, or at least phase one, right. I don't think we're all the way through the pandemic, but it just helped in a major way.
Mark Leary 42:55
Well, well, one of the things I think you're doing there, is it us conference a couple weeks ago? Yeah, maybe last week, I don't know.
Mark 43:03
Go fast.
Mark Leary 43:05
I taught a session on the five leadership abilities, which was something I had taught kind of very passively for many years and is caused me to really dig into what that was. And there was many epiphanies, and many epiphanies to come Max, I felt like I kind of gave 25% of the presentation that I could give maybe next year after having studied more deeply. But one of the things that I came across in the leadership ability of simplification is that we know that complexity is exponential. Everytime you add an employee, you get an exponential increase in opportunities to fail. And this difficulty in keeping accurate. And so looking at the evolution of a company as it levels up every single time it breaks through ceiling of complexity and simplicity. There is a sophistication about how you manage simplification. Essentially, it's organization, that if you know you got to drive towards simplicity, and you're going to be able to, you're going to have to work against exponential complexity. It requires real thought to how you organize the things moving around your business. And so 10 years ago, you use the tools you just described. You were the only one you knew who did that, and you were definitely best in class. Today, many people are using similar things. And you're not necessarily best in class, I can say that if you're not using these tools, you are definitely not best in class. But if you are using those tools, the game needs to needs to level up and more and more sophisticated companies are using core values and rocks setting and really strong meeting pulse and your degree of accuracy. You got a lot of moving pieces now. And so your software and that thinking of how you simplify, how do you organize, how do you how do you get a lot of data in a simple, easy, digestible, that's one of the levels up on how to manage complexity, complexity
Mark 45:06
apps. Absolutely. And now throw work from anywhere on top of all this. Right? And, you know, it's interesting, in a very much a related conversation, I was talking to the session this week, and the department heads were talking about communication. And each of them wanted to have their own communication system. And I'm like, guys, you can't do this. Right? If you communicate, it's simple things like when do we use email? When do we use? you know, our messaging tool? We use Slack, right? When do you use tax? When do you call make phone calls, all this kind of stuff, right? Everybody's dealing with this issue right now. And I'm like, think about this, you want an organization where everybody's communicating the same way, you don't want to have two different groups come together, and all of a sudden, will one's like, you know, I use email. The other one's like, I'm using the messenger tool, one's like, I text one's like, I call how's that gonna work? Right? You're creating dysfunction within the organization. So you know, just getting everybody on the same page with regard to how you run your business, how you do the things you do, shared language, etc. Especially in work from anywhere, right back to your point. I mean, if you don't, if you're not thinking these things through, you're putting at least a hand, if not a leg, behind your back. And if you're thinking that other people aren't learning how to run their businesses better or smarter, how to create cohesiveness, they're thinking through these things about work from anywhere and the implications. You know, I back divisionary, right, I think you've got to, you know, you need to stand up and look around,
Mark Leary 47:01
we're getting to the end of our time, and I fear, I shouldn't even ask this, because I know it's going to potentially create a whole new problem. But this idea of getting access to that data, and having a perspective of the truth is, has to be and I love your opinion on it. A key ingredient in trust?
Mark 47:22
Oh, absolutely. Right. I mean, look, I actually was writing an article on this yesterday. You know, fundamentally, one of the reasons that you know, businesses indoor, right, one of the reasons that the market economy is, you know, works really, really well, is the truth is there, right? The data is there, the numbers are there, you need to understand the numbers. And, and, obviously, the numbers are data, you need to understand the math associated with the numbers. And so the data, having the ability to really understand your numbers, having the ability to not just understand the numbers at the senior level, but to understand the numbers and the math all the way down, is, you know, it's becoming more and more and more essential. And I don't, yeah, obviously, I see the world through my own lens. I don't I have no clue how you do this. Without a system, like, I just don't know how you do it. Yeah. Right. Back to humane, right. productive, humane and resilient. Right? You got it in how you do it in a way where it's healthy. Right? How you're doing it in a way that helps everybody understand this is how we make sure that we know if there's an issue, not because we want to sit here and say, hey, you've got an issue, but it's, hey, you've got an issue. How can we help? Yeah, yeah. Right. And no one wants to struggle. No one wants to grind through this stuff. No one's wants to do this stuff alone. You know, we're all a part of a company in a 90% of us are part of a company because we're social creatures, we actually want to belong to someplace. Right? And I think we've learned that big time and in the pandemic, right? We are social creatures. And isn't it amazing? Wouldn't it be great if you loved who you worked with? If you love the company you work for, if you believe your company was making life better? Wouldn't it be great if you went to work every single day or you walked into the room and did work every single day and you're like, I love this. I love what I'm doing. And Mark I don't mean to write I don't know how this will come across to people. But I love what I'm doing. I yeah, I deeply love what I'm doing. And I want that for everybody.
Mark Leary 49:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I think that that comes across well. I think people that sends the message it's possible. Even if you spent 25 years in the wrong industry. Yeah, that's,
Mark 50:10
that's the wrong industry. Right? I was exactly where I was supposed to be right. I learned about companies, I learned about good loom, what great management looks like, I learned what crappy management learned. Looks like, I learned how to be patient, right? I mean, I, I deeply believe you're exactly where you're supposed to be. You're exactly we're supposed to be learning the lessons you're supposed to be learning. And you know, sometimes it takes longer than other times to learn these lessons. But you know, you are where you need to be.
Mark Leary 50:36
Yeah. But it's dangerous to compare. Well, I think you summarize really, really well. And I was gonna ask some more provocative questions. And I think it'd be cool. It's good, what you said was really, really good. I love how to tie everything down in terms of the purpose of all this, is there anything we missed? Anything you want to add to this about trust, or anything else in that category, that we just feel not right to leave unsaid?
Mark 50:59
You know, um, yeah. I just, you know, I, I believe, let's, let's wrap all this up back with visionaries, right? So I believe that the visionaries, the great visionaries, are all about making life better, and for all seven stakeholders to do that, you need to have high trust relationships. The beauty of living in 2021 is we understand what trust is all about. We understand the components of trust, we understand how to look at it, how to talk about it, how to dig into it, and ultimately, you know, great vision, build great relationships, make life better, surround yourself with people that you love doing business with, build a company where people just love doing business with it, regardless of which stakeholder you are. Yeah, and just help us make the world better. Because, right, the purpose of life is to make life better, obviously, right?
Mark Leary 52:11
You know, it is obvious, but when we get busy, we forget. And we gotta take a minute and reconnect with that, which is like the importance of the clarity break and importance of all those things that busy people tend to not do and a good system, you know, a Strategic Coach and EOS, you know, individual coaching, whatever, whether it forces us to stop and say, Hey, just doing what he's supposed to be doing would make life better for me, my family, my friends, my customers, are you? Hmm,
Mark 52:40
yeah. Everyday ask it. It's not a bad question to ask.
Mark Leary 52:44
Well, it, man, I'm grateful for everything you shared. What is your passionate plea to entrepreneurs right now? And I know I didn't prep you with that question. Most of the time, I give people a heads up and I forgot to give you a heads up. So that might be surprising you right now.
Mark 52:57
No, no, but you know what it is? Right? I've said at least, I don't know, seven to ten times. Right? It's just, you know, as a leader, it means you're leading people. Right? And so people are following you if you're a leader, and you know, the best leaders make life better. And so just constantly ask yourself, right, am I you know, am I doing this as well as I possibly can do it? And if not, you know, why? And how do I you know, do I, you know, is it that I need to I need to coach personally, do I need to coach for my team? Do you know, what do I need to be able to get really just jacked about my life and about impacting the world? And that's, you know, there aren't many, you know, if you look at the world, I don't know. I mean, I think great visionaries are, you know, I don't know if they're 1/10 of 1%. But you know, it's a small number. We need more.
Mark Leary 54:03
Yeah, yeah, we need more in great visionaries are not categorized and not by the greatness of their ideas. I think that's the kind of the essence of what I'm taking away from this. And I've heard many people say, like, we don't need more awesome ideas. There's a million awesome ideas. We need it connected to purpose and passion.
Mark 54:21
Yeah. Now you got me on another topic. I can't help it. I know we're over time, right. So look, innovation requires three types of people. And no one is all three types. It takes a thinker, a feeler and a doer. thinkers come up with the ideas, feelers decide whether or not we're going to embrace those ideas, and doers make them happen, right? I don't know anybody who's amazing at thinking, feeling, and doing but I've seen a bunch of teams that are amazing at thinking and feeling and doing and you got to decide what you're great at, and then go fine, write those other pieces to ultimately do all three things really, really well, especially if you've got an idea that you think is going to make life better, over the long run, ideas that impact, not just for tomorrow, but for five and 10 years out ideas that impact are not just for a single couple people, right? But the best ideas, they impact millions. And they impact for years and years and years. That's the shit. Sorry to swear that I love those of the entrepreneurs that I'm sitting here going, dude, I am screaming for your success from the sidelines.
Mark Leary 55:44
Well, that was worth the price of admission right there. Mark, I'm really glad you put that in there. Because that I can use that and I will use that and that's super valuable. That's a great, great nugget. I'm so grateful for that.
55:55
Welcome.
Mark Leary 55:56
Well, look, man, that's a great place to end. If somebody wants to continue the conversation keep up with you and what's going on? How does somebody easily find you these days?
Mark 56:06
Yeah, so Mark Abbott global comm is my is my is my blogs and essays and then mark at 90. And i n e t y.io. Is my is my email for the software company. And that's it. I'm on LinkedIn as well, just like everybody else,
Mark Leary 56:28
I guess like everybody. Awesome, man. Well, that's our time for today. Great stuff. I'm so grateful for this. It's really been useful. And it's been a fun conversation. And so for those of you listening, if this was useful to you, or and or you know, somebody who this would be useful for get it in their hands, share the link chat and let them know what's out there because it's not helpful if they don't get a chance to take a take a listen to it. So in the meantime, share all of your feedback good and bad. We especially want that constructive feedback. We love it all. Give it to us. It's so helpful. We will see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me, Mark Henderson.
VO 57:04
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe, go to lyric.cc