With speaking engagements in over 30 countries on six continents, rock-and-roll roadie turned entrepreneur Richard Mulholland knows the impact that memorable presentations can make firsthand. For one, he’s the founder of presentation powerhouse Missing Link, as well as the co-founder of 21Tanks, HumanWrit.es and The Sales Department. He also has three great books under his belt such as Legacide, Boredom Slayer, and Story Seller. This is a guy who’s passionate about public speaking, entrepreneurship, and generally, just being a better human, and it shows. That's why he works with executives and speakers around the world, helping them deliver unforgettable presentations that activate audiences and generate income.
Opportunities that initially feel great do not always work out. Sometimes, it's just distractions veering you off course. That’s why focusing your efforts and curating your time in alignment with your Vision and Core Values make a real difference whether you’re an entrepreneur or a leader in your organization. Rich Mulholland joins me on the show to unpack how to truly get deeper in your craft, putting your energy in the right place, and the real deal about authenticity.
7:42 The mistake serial entrepreneurs commit
15:19 Rich talks about falling in love with his business again in the pandemic
21:14 How focusing on the glorification of the entrepreneur can be misguided
24:37 Curating your time to do things aligned with what you want to be
38:35 How society trains us to be dishonest
45:55 Have narrow opinions and go deep on them
53:14 The first step to authenticity in public speaking
55:08 Rich’s passionate plea to entrepreneurs
“The difference between a leader and a manager is your ability to communicate. Go out there and lead.”
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
RICH MULHOLLAND
https://www.linkedin.com/in/richardmulholland/
https://richmulholland.com/
Wednesday, April 21, 2021
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, love, entrepreneur, year, games, work, business, boring, world, realized, presentation, board, person, craft, fun, leader, called, buy, pandemic, opinions
SPEAKERS
Mark Leary, Rich, VO
Mark Leary 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson, Leary and my name is Mark. And I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help you to get control of your business. And part of how I do that, as you know by now is by letting you listen in on a conversation between two people who have a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world geeking out talking about something in the details that they really find awesome. And hopefully, we'll stumble, get lost and figure out how to talk about something that will unlock the problem, this ceiling the challenge that will help you live that best life by running the best business. So before we dive in, of course, we need that feedback. Don't forget this give us the dang feedback doesn't matter if it's good or bad. We need it. It's super, super helpful. Every little piece of it, we'd love it. So let's get into the conversation with rich Mulholland who is a fantastic guy. He's spoken in over 30 countries on six continents. He's clearly a rock and roll road, he turned out to be entrepreneur. And he absolutely has the best tattoos of anybody that I spend time with. I have massive tattoo envy, they're so awesome, your pictures are great, we'll make sure we get a good tattoo shot on the press cover. But he works with executives and speakers around the world helping them deliver amazing presentations. And so as you can imagine working with people giving presentations over the last year or so with the pandemic, he's been super busy trying to pivot figure out and get involved and help people get past their obstacles, and just got an amazing entrepreneurial story. Plus, just being an awesome fun guy who is passionate about above all else, board games, Rich Mulholland, how are you man,
Rich 01:36
I'm doing fantastic, I'm so nervous that I'm not gonna be able to bring the same level of energy that I see from you. So I'm gonna have to put I have to smash my first little bit of coffee down the line. So I can bring it at the same level that you're sending. It's
Mark Leary 01:50
so funny, like when the switch goes, like we'd had a conversation for five minutes. And it's like, All right, go. And something happens, something breaks inside of me. And suddenly I'm like, you know, 240 volts.
Rich 01:59
That's incredible. I sorry, I know we did something, you said conversation. That's what most people don't get, they don't understand. So people don't get that like when you go out there you go on stage, you go on a podcast, you go into a video, it's it's the version of you, you want the person to play in the movie, right? So as not being not authentic. It's so much you're still bringing it but you're bringing it at a different like an amplified level. And most people think that that's being inauthentic. And it took me a while to realize that's not inauthentic at all. That's just bringing it at a different level. It's bringing it an amplified level. And I think when you can figure that is when you can figure the version of you that DiCaprio would play in the movie. That's who you want to be when you get behind a mic.
Mark Leary 02:42
I kind of think it's the real meat, I think I think the rest of the time is sort of like, you know, low power mode. You know, power conservation mode couldn't be the real me all the time, I'd wear myself out that battery
Rich 02:52
conservation mode is exactly what we should be because it's also thinking processing. So this isn't this is this is not getting it back out there. Right. It's sending it out to the world. The rest is an input phase. But I love that idea of conservation mode, I think you're absolutely spot on anyway. So that's it stoked to be here. This is fun.
Mark Leary 03:11
It's awesome. And so I'm excited. So we talked if we can talk about anything you want to talk about, I am curious though, because when we first met, which was four months ago, I'll say doesn't matter if that's right or not. The the part of the story that really captured me was that your entire business was about helping people with in person events and being an engaging on stage. And you went from like a super busy business with a very amazing facility that like you wowed people with coming to your office, and you're like, well, that's all useless. Let's get rid of all that. And let's do everything virtual. And now we're on the other side of that, what have you, what are you? What are you seeing? Are you having to readapt to a world that's starting to open back up? Or are you just like, now we found the new formula, and we're not changing anything.
Rich 03:53
Okay, so I do see that the world is changing and starting to open up and things like that, that's of little interest to me, because if I get local again, then I'm doing business locally. So then my client list is people that I can drive to their venue. And it's events in which I can help them with this part of it. I what I don't think is going to happen is that we're going to lose the digital component of of live eventing. So I think the future is hybrid, the future is going to be that somebody is going to be in the room, some audience is going to be in the room, maybe your key executives, but then 500 other people from your Salesforce are going to join online. And somebody's got to manage that experience. And somebody's got to make sure that's the other thing is our access to talents and speakers. This didn't take much planning for us. We're sitting halfway around the world from each other. I'm done in Cape Town, South Africa, you're in Texas, like everything is easy. And why would we want to go back to a point to which if I wanted to speak at one of your events, I had to fly halfway across the planet. So this what we've now done is we've all swallowed the red pill. I'm going to double down on the idea of how can we level up when presenting online and we're doing this digitally. Because also thing for me is like You know, as we all are as entrepreneurs, with the salespeople for our businesses, and this is easier, there's so much less friction with me having a call with somebody online, I can get on a call quicker, and I can get through the call quicker. So I do believe it's going to change I do believe we're going back to in person events, I do believe that's incredible. I'm excited to do some of those speaking gigs. But for me, what's more exciting is figuring out how the, the what we've now realized we can do incorporates into this new world order.
Mark Leary 05:28
Yeah, man, I've experienced that same thing. It's I've got clients that I can barely remember what city they're in, like, I don't know, I know, I work with them. I know we're having great experiences. It's virtual, it's great. And my local clients are starved for local attention. And why get in the room with them. It's totally different. So my business is actually twice as complex as from before, because I am now developing two skill sets that kind of have to coexist and interchange at time. It's very, it's a very strange
Rich 05:58
thing. Yeah, there's two ways. For me, my business is twice as complex. But what it is, more importantly, is half as boring. I was so bored of my business entrepreneurs, we fix problems, or we fill gaps. My business isn't that complicated. So most of that was figured out in the first three or four years, I started my business when I was 22. I'm 46. Now, I've been so bored of my business, for so long, it's been a cruising altitude. Last year, it stopped cruising and started dive bombing. And it was the best thing never happened because I had to get behind the controls again. And I realized I'm loving it. And I cruising altitude is a very, very boring time for many entrepreneurs. In fact, I sometimes realize why I'm not as traditionally successful, as many other entrepreneurs as I'm not bad acid, the boring I hate process. I hate running business II type stuff. And I just like the solving problems, putting out fires doing that kind of stuff.
Mark Leary 06:58
That's not, that's not abnormal, what what I think is striking, and I want to slow down to unpack this. Most visionary entrepreneurs are exactly like that they need, they need the interesting piece. And so they create an interesting half broken business, they can't get good at the boring stuff. The ones who are successful bring in typically a whole other leadership function to do the boring stuff. And when the visionaries that I work with, they want to get too boring. So they can then go intentionally, positively make it more interesting, but they can't seem to get it to boring enough. And so usually, I'm saying is your integrator is your missing link, you have to have that leader who can do that. How did you get it to boring and keep it there?
Rich 07:42
I'd worked in a business coach a guy called wolf blitzer for years. And he knew I wanted to get out what I wanted to do is keep starting new businesses. And I thought this isn't one of the worst terms, I think people throw out date throw this out as a term of as if it's a sexy thing. I think it's a flaw, I think this is a bug and not a feature is the word serial entrepreneur. The idea that we are intrapreneur 20 times over or 15 times over. For some people, that's good. But for me every single time I've tried that, so at one stage, I had a group of companies called cultivation and we had 21 tanks, human rights, the sales department missing link, I'm missing one. And like I came from, and what I mean is shocking. And my I thought that that's what it took to run a business. But actually all I was doing was every time I got bored, I would start something else to find my excitement. What last year taught me is I didn't have I didn't have the opportunity to save everything. So I wanted to really focus on the one part of the business that I did, that I was good at. And I found my focus inside that. So instead of me getting bored of my business, I got bored in my business. And that was very, very helpful. Now I do have a senior leadership team that did like I just got off a call with our Managing Director that will be president, I guess in US terms, okay, she runs the business, and she's my functioning my boss, but I just got off the call with her. And I was arguing, so I want to do this as this. She's like, dude, no, this is, and that's cool. And then I'll come up with this, and she is going to have that tension. And then we've got a head of special operations, who is somewhat in between the I will throw a left field idea. He will test if that still fits the construct and the victory condition of the business. And then Sam will make sure that that happens and rolls out into the company. So that's how we
Mark Leary 09:27
dropped the mic, because that was exactly I mean, I entered this conversation because I have a toolset. And I have a philosophy that I teach and I'm always afraid that somebody I'm gonna have on the show is kind of like break it. They're gonna say like, Well, that doesn't isn't true for our business. But that's you one more example of as the visionary, easily bored entrepreneur for that person to be successful. It doesn't work without somebody who is trying to be boring and slowing you down for all the right reasons and credibly saying, Hey rich, this great idea if you really want to sink the ship, and since we don't want to sink the ship We're not doing that. And we're gonna do this and we're gonna be on the same page that we've already agreed to, and keep going. And then thanks for your ideas, because well, some of these are actually pretty good, but those were not. So that's the integrator visionary functionality that yin and yang you have to have. So that's interesting. So but you still describe it as being bored. is when you say that I'm like, that's profitable, man, if you board is profitable, if you've got that
Rich 10:28
will profit is unimportant if you care about profit. So I realized years ago that no matter how rich I get on the, on the Olympic on the Olympic, you know, stage of rich people, I wouldn't even make the team have the luxury housing estate I live in, even if I fulfill or beg my neighbor across the road, no matter if I fulfill my wildest dreams, I'm not going to beat nilesh his goals of you know, I he'll beat me on the team. So I realized that financial gain and profit by itself was a bit of a problem, because you're always wanting more. Now, I get there, all entrepreneurs are different things. But I refuse to measure my success on how much how far beyond enough I have. In fact, the only reason that I woke up to that and to realize that I have to turn on the gas a little bit more was that it's all very well and good that I have enough. I live in a nice home in a beautiful city, and I've got a great lifestyle, I get to go snowboarding and ride my motorbikes and buy my board games. But my staff don't all have that. And so it's you can't stop. You can't stop when the founder has enough because every chip goes motivated. Yeah, nobody else has enough. So I've got to make sure that I build the business enough that the people who have bought into my vision of you know what we want to be want to help ordinary people deliver extraordinary presentations, I've got to make sure that the people who buy into that with me, they get to a point where they can live in a nice house in nice suburb, go snowboarding by board game. Exactly, yeah.
Mark Leary 11:54
See, what we've learned about leadership. And Simon Sinek talks a lot about this is the concept of the cherished leader who is ostensibly and actually in actuality, oftentimes taking more risks than anybody else for the cause. The community actually wants that leader to have what they want, they want to shower them with praise and gifts and rewards, which are a result not not an entitlement, which is a whole other conversation in itself. But most people in a company really want the president owner to have lots of great stuff. Because when the leader gets lots of great stuff, which they deserve for taking the risk, that means that everybody else will get similar reward as well. And so if the that's really interesting point, if the leader of the organization says I'm good, that's a very unhealthy thing for everybody else, if the if the if you don't think that through, because if you're no longer growing financially, and otherwise, then everyone else is stuck to and that that's not good, getting their way down hierarchy,
Rich 12:54
right. But you don't have to do it. So for example, so years ago, I was when I was on the douchebag curve, that we now refer to it as lovingly, as I was buying a new car every year. And I just bought myself this fancy portion of felt great about myself. And I remember one of the guys in the office, it said something like oranges bought a fancy car. And Sam turned around and said the day Richard stops buying fancy cars. And this is I mean, I'm 46 this was probably 1012 years ago, and Sam when he just turned 40. So she was probably she was the second choice was probably 28 at the time, and she said the day Richard stops buying those classes, they we should worry. Because whenever he as he grows, the business grows and things grow. And I thought that was true for a while. But now I realize I can still grow the business and the people without putting myself off that. So I stepped off that treadmill. Because especially in organizations like yo that I'm part of somebody who's always wealthier, somebody always got a nicer house. Yeah, my wife is in the spousal forum with a person who when she goes to a sponsor forum in their home, she gets in an elevator and goes up an elevator to the gym floor is like we do not have elevators in our home. Now if I compare my success against theirs financially, I will feel like I'm a failure. But for me, and in terms of my crafts, I believe that in the Olympic Games of my craft, we would captain, the Continental African team, and on any given day, I would put us up to be a good fight for a medal. And so that's what I'm trying to put my focus by empowering my efforts and my profits back into the business so that we can grow in that way as well. And that I'm enjoying.
Mark Leary 14:33
Yeah, that's a great correction on what I said, Because Because what I said kind of would lead you to believe that it's about the leader, becoming selfish and narcissistic and more material going to the leader, but the point that there is some sense of growth, every individual, especially an entrepreneur to grow in some way, and maybe that's the craft, but it's certainly the vision for the organization, the organization, the plan, the whole vision that needs to be progressing and doing something bigger than the individuals. And so I guess that, you know, I sort of oversimplified, but I do, I do think it does boil down to, if we were all the tides are gonna rise every you know, it's it can't be individually and if we decided, you know, we don't like the tides were there at the back, that could be a very bad message for people who are like, I'm just I'm not catching many ways, you know, I
Rich 15:19
think we need the tides to rise, pick that spot on. And the mistake I made is I got the one tied up. And then I went to a new dam. And I tried to do the same there, instead of so that was that was that serial entrepreneur mistake where I said, well, I've got this one to this, that one plate is spinning. Now I need to try and spin a second plate and I need to try spin a third plate, when in fact, I wish I just made the you know, the three, three plates spin on top of the one thing. And that's what I'm now I'm like, ruthlessly curious and absolutely focused within the realm of the space I'm in. And as a result of falling back in love with my business. I will say I sometimes I sometimes wonder if it doesn't frustrate the team in the short term, having me back involved. Because I am like, you know, coming again, it's like when my when my wife is just so much better at cooking than I am. And I hate if I'm busy making dinner and she sticks she walks into the kitchen, because I know she's going to just tell me what I'm doing wrong and things. And I sometimes wonder if I if I'm being that guy, I don't mean to be but but that net result is I am in love with my business again, like the first time I started it, except that it's more mature now. And I think it's great. And that was all thanks to the pandemic.
Mark Leary 16:40
Well, that's, that's awesome. And Model A lot of people have a lot of gratitude, I have a lot of gratitude for for the pandemic. That is not to say that it was not excruciating at times, I am very, very open about the fact that you know, I my business was pretty good. I mean, I did take take a hit. And I was privileged to be working with great positive optimistic clients. But for me, there were days when I was I just felt like I was under a lead blanket, even when things were good, just the uncertainty and the difference. And it was very, very difficult for me. But I can't I can't look back and say anything other than all good for me and for the benefit. Now there are people in my world who don't have quite the same story. But it Yeah, it's all good in terms of forcing the changes and improving things. Talked about your involvement in the business, and how you've, you're concerned about how, you know, maybe you're tinkering, and people are like, get out, go back to playing board games were fine over here. I don't I don't think that's the case. I think the formula that works well is honor the structure of the organization, you've got your integrator you've got, you've got your leaders. And if you flow through the organization, and you provide your spice and contribution and don't use syrup or undermine anybody's authority, people love that as long as the structure is honored and people people's contributions are honored, have you know, people want the help. They just don't want to be disrupted or redirected when they've got momentum and those kind of things. So I think people want that as long as you honor them.
Rich 18:17
Yeah, I think one of the seminars conversations are, if they're ever tension, it's always privately. So we have three weekly calls 1230. And we chatted for half an hour. And we go through everything. And that's where we argue and debate things. And sometimes you'll bring in the head of Special Ops, and we go through that as well. But you're right when the idea is that any of this tension happens behind closed doors, so it doesn't feel like it rocks, the business. And by the time it comes into the business, it feels like a natural progression. And that's where she's so much better at managing that than I am, right, because I just want to go in and tell everybody and do this. And she's got finds a better way of making that work, because she also understands the bigger picture of the business. So I've gone deep on craft, what we do, what problems we're trying to solve in the world. And that's very different to creating a mechanism, building a mechanism around that craft to to amplify that authority to our clients and to the world and to make an impact. And she does that. And she knows that engine, she understands how that engine is running. And that that frees me up to do other stuff.
Mark Leary 19:25
So one of the things, lots of things that can kind of come out of this, but I coined a phrase, a guess maybe I'm sure some people have said many similar things 1000s of times before me, but I was coaching a guy in particular. And he was all over the place and everything was kind of going well, but it was early stage and he had four or five irons in the fire. And I said, Look, man, this is great. But sooner or later, you're going to have to focus. And since Having said that, I've learned to apply that kind of anywhere. I see a lack of focus even though things are going Well, and the way you described what you had to do, and ties back to a phenomenon that I encounter, which was when I was an entrepreneur, before I had any of the tools, any of the ways to focus one page plans and EOS type tools that I that I teach now, I thought I was focused, and I wasn't. And what I discovered is when we created a plan that was narrow, that seemed like it was eliminating distractions that might be otherwise interesting, all that creativity that I had hadn't gone anywhere, but now it was sitting into a lane and and then rather than tweaking something way over here and investigating something way over there, all of my creativity was in a theme. And now my creativity was twice as powerful because I was solving problems on the same subject. And now the subject started to elevate and multiply in terms of how I could put all my energy it was it was a classic example of a laser beam focus on the energy. And now we can start to cut through diamond because we had the energy in one direction, as opposed to diffusing the energy all kinds of different ways. Is that kind of what you're starting to see with like, Look, there's an urgency behind like, the world, if I don't get this figured out, we're gonna have a problem. And I cannot focus on all these different things.
Rich 21:14
He, I love what you said there. And I was trying to pass in my head because I thought I was focused. So I did think if you'd asked me five years ago, you focus I was yes. But I realized, so I went to war with a term for a while. I don't know, this is a term you guys use over there. But in South Africa, people in the ad agencies will often refer to themselves as creatives. So I am a creative. And I would say you if you're falling in love with a noun, a noun, when in fact, you should be thinking about it as an adjective, like I'm a creative something, you know, because lawyers can be creative. Builders can be creative, or architects can be creative. And they see creativity as the end, not as the tool. And I think when I was listening to say that there I was thinking, see, this is and this is a term that I've been playing with my head, I mentioned to you and we're chatting before, I think my focus was on misguided towards the noun entrepreneur. So I was trying to be an entrepreneur, I'm part of this entrepreneur, it's organization, entrepreneurship is glorified. So I got so lost, I mean, focus, but what does an entrepreneur do entrepreneur starts new businesses does new things, all the things intrapreneurs do that instead, what I should be in, so I'm a presentation guy. What I should have been is an entrepreneurial presentation guy. That's, that's the difference. And my focus was on entrepreneur, not presentation. And so I lost my way because I got seduced by the glorification of the term entrepreneur. But that's not my job. My job isn't to be an entrepreneur, my job is to make people suck less and public. And I lost track of that. Because Because of this, and I don't know if you felt it, but even I guess it's like, you know, EOS isn't the word. But this, we've fallen in love with this notion of the glorification of the entrepreneur. And I think that's what I focused on being an entrepreneur instead of focus there. So
Mark Leary 23:12
yeah, well, I'm a huge fan of you have been a member or participant in some capacity for 15, or maybe longer than 15 years or longer. It's, it's a lifestyle. First thing, though, is, you know, the I ostensive. Joining is I'm going to be better business person. But that's not guaranteed. Because it really more than anything plugs you into the visionary, entrepreneurial, distracted, exclusive access to fun stuff on the planet. And I think that's cool, and is good, and it can make you a better person. But it's not guaranteed that that turns into success, it actually is trying to make you a little less successful, you're going to spend a little more money, and you're going to spend a little less time in your business and you're going to hang out with cool people, which can be good. And that brought me back to one of my earlier podcasts. We talked about Cameron Harold and Cameron Harrell, and I talked specifically about this idea of, you got to curate who you hang out with. You got to really put some if you want to be that entrepreneurial person who helps people suck less in public. Like that's not an accident. That's not just hanging out with fun drinking buddies that he Oh, that's like, well, who am I spending time with? Am I joining certain associations? And who do I want to be like, and it really takes some intentionality to say, look, I have scarce time, a time is super, super leverageable super valuable. And so who am I going to spend my time around? Uh, what's that kind of do for me? How do you curate your time?
Rich 24:37
Well, so I'll tell you that in a second, but last year, so I've been, you know, membership chair, Chapter president global Communications Committee, I went on that fun hobby of Yo, yo leadership as a hobby. He had to do cool things and it's fun. And I went, you know, I got to be part of the management of 14,000 person company for a while. That felt really great, but it was a distraction. Yeah, that being he But I tapped out last year, I stepped out of leadership of of eo. And I joined the presentation guild board. Because I realized that I would the presentation guild is the, the authority body within my sphere, and everybody I speak to are trying to go deeper on craft. And I want to get deeper on craft, I want to be the world's leading authority in the space. And I say that with no hyperbole, I would literally want to be the world's leading authority in delivering a message to live audiences. And I've got a lot of work that needs to be done in order to get there. But I think I've still got the time. So I had to surround myself, you know, it was great to hang out with my ear. And you know, it's beautiful network. And you know, I'm a big fan like you. But I realized I needed to put my energy there. So I stepped out of one leadership and into a different one. As for curating my time, like many public speakers, I'm really, really, really, really, really not good with people. So I don't enjoy social interaction I have does not play well with others tattooed on my back. I love brella. Yeah, for me, I'm very anti social like, and I don't mean that in a horrible way. I don't like crowds. I love my family, but I struggle with family gatherings. And I basically never see people, I read novels, I play board games, I spend time with my family. And then maybe once a week now, because my wife has forced me, I'll try meet one other human in person. But I'd like I only curate my time to do things I want to be to like things in my head.
Mark Leary 26:36
Do so there's all the science around social interaction and social correlation to happiness and fulfillment. Do you struggle with trying to figure that formula out? Or do you feel like you're locked into your best life?
Rich 26:51
Well, I don't know. I'm really happy. My. So my wife is amazing. We giggle all day long. My kids are incredible. Like I've got an 18 year old, a 30 year old and they still like me. Like that's that's that's something that's that's pretty cool. My family, my I know, this is, it sounds so normalized. But I realized it's not my parents live 500 meters away, my sister is 500 meters that way, my other sister lives a kilometer that way, we're walking distance from each other, in spite of moving over from Scotland, to Johannesburg to Cape Town, like we all want to be around each other. I saw both my parents and my sister's twice this weekend, like I don't need so much more. And also what I've loved about I think we were became socially reliant on the workplace to fulfill our social tank. And I actually get fulfilled this conversation that we have had today is a gift for me, this is me engaging with somebody else having a cool chat. And this really serves it fills my tank a lot. And that's enough for me, I saw if I can have a one of these types of things a day, I feel I'm doing better than most people because they're just talking rubbish IE admin stuff all day. I think that what happened last year was we moved back from getting our social interaction at the office, to getting our social interaction around our home. So the home became the center, all of a sudden, I don't know how it was over there. But within our little closed housing community, people would have barbecues on the street. And we all put it off. And then that neighbor and everybody, all these new community, things were formed. And I, you know, walked outside said, Hello, but my wife, and kids all made friends, and they were all chatting, and it was incredible. And that's been so fulfilling. But for me, I have very low social requirements for happiness. Because I'm very happy and I'm very anti social.
Mark Leary 28:40
But if you get that you get the balance. I like with the pandemic, I go, I go in internalized, and I start to go to work and I start solving problems and I get focused, and but I actually get lonely. I really realize I've gotta make sure I'm interacting with people in the right way. Because I can I can veer off pretty pretty easily. And it's in it's interesting, because when I get hyper focused in work and specific things, I'm only interested in talking to people about those specific things. And so, Cameron Harrell, he kind of called me out and called in general is like, Look, you're not doing anything fun. If you're not watching any TV programs that people talk about your boring and stop that. And at the time, you know, I don't know, I don't know how true that is. I think there are seasons of life where like boring is okay, I'm trying to get my craft to the next level. But it did stick with me to make sure like, you know, is this the right recipe? And how much you know, frivolity and entertainment in you know, should be in my world, you clearly don't have that problem. Your Passion is board games and that my passion is not board games, like no board games like in this house. Anyway. There's one dinosaur board game downstairs that my son likes to play. That's it's
Rich 29:46
a hobby board games are very different to the type of board games maybe you grew up with. So I just have to be I always have to be solving and in fact, was one of the biggest things for me last year was in the past. I would try and force everybody to play a board game. With me, every speaking trial went on, I took games with me to play with people, no matter where I wasn't, well, I had a board game, and I want to dump a game with people, because I think it's a nice social lubricant. for introverts like me, that don't really like small talk, I can put down a game state, and it can be thinkI. And we can solve a problem together or against each other over a table. And that forms the basis for us to have social interaction. Last year, I played no games, and I couldn't understand why. And then I realized is because my problem solving question was my quota was done. So my day required me to solve so many problems all day long, that the game of my business was fulfilling enough and natural guide. So at the end of the day, I wanted to relax with reading some fiction or, you know, reading some fiction, mostly. And so that's what I would sit and I would do, and it's only just recently now as the business is getting really into its rhythm. I mean, in September was our best month in 2014. At the time, 23 years, and we're doing better and better every month. And, and now, I'm starting to play games. Again, I paid a little solo card game at lunch. So game of solitaire, and it was incredible. And now I'm trying to solve new problems in different ways. So that's, that's my thing, I get all up inside my own head. And I've got to be solving problems.
Mark Leary 31:16
So now I'm confused because I was thinking I need to start doing more board games than I'd like. But I'm pretty sure that I'm spending a lot of time solving problems. So probably don't need more of that. But I liked what you said about board games as a substitute for small talk because I cannot stand small talk like that's a problem for me. And so is that the solution? Can I pull boardgames out the game I've been playing lately that was chess, do you play chess at all?
Rich 31:38
You speak chess, I pay a very similar game could buy pickle tech, which I think is more accessible, I can teach it to you. And it's not as dependent on you know, even though I've played like 400 games of it, exactly. It's allowed them and you paid none, after like two or three games would have a good game. Whereas if I paid 400 games of chess, and you'd paid none, does, it's not even a sport for you. It's not even a game like I just know. Yeah. And I
32:03
get a stroke. That's what I think about it. So funny about chess, like I'm, I'm so bad at it, I can't believe how bad it will drive me.
Rich 32:11
It's a learnable skill. So I do enjoy. So there's a game called the Duke. Or there's a version of a game called the y'all that I highly recommend to people that like chess. And in this game, you basically start with a pawn and two pawns and volunteers purposes a queen, and the Queen dies, you lose, okay, in this case, it's the Juke. But every turn, you've got a choice, you either move one of your pieces, or you reach into a bag and you pull out another piece. But all the pieces feel the same, so you don't know what you're getting. Now, some people say, oh, but that's got randomness to it. But that's what I love, because it has input randomness. Now the world is about input randomness. The world isn't deterministic, it isn't like everything follows a formula. It's an event happens, the event is I draw a bad title. And I now have to make that work. Because that's what now I've been given. And for me, like when people talk about purpose, I don't believe we have a purpose, I believe we're like a walking bag of hearing meat, I believe what we have is a hand. And at any given time, you're holding a hand of five skills or talents or whatever, five cards in your hand. And your job is not to debate to the cards, it's to optimize the way you play them. And so I'm constantly on this trying to figure out like, what is it that I'm doing, and I love the idea of inputting randomness. Anyway. So the game is the Duke, it is worthwhile checking out, you can get on Amazon or whatever. And it's a bit easier to teach over a quicker and will give you everything you want from chess, but I guarantee you I get into the table more. Go.
Mark Leary 33:41
I love it. I'm excited to check that out for sure. And I think what you describe like playing the hand that you're dealt, that's the metaphor that I just don't use that exactly right that way. But it's the same message that I say that entrepreneurship is all about. Entrepreneurship is taking a bunch of broken stuff, and figuring out how to get what you want anyway,
Rich 33:59
Yeah, broken is the opportunity to ride because that's what I always used to think like an entrepreneur fixes something, or fills something. If it was all working. I understand this is entrepreneurial, but if I walked into a flower shop and loved flowers, and started a second flower shop, that isn't really intrapreneurship it's kind of small business ownership. And I get that that's maybe a snobby term. But just for the sake of this, a friend of mine, Ryan Barker, he walked into a flower shop, bought flowers to drive halfway across the town to deliver to his wife, and then realize this is stupid and broken and started Netflorist. And it was basically Amazon flowers. He started out many, many, many years ago. It's built a monster business. He didn't start it because he loved flowers. He started it because he hated it. And so there's great opportunity and falling in hate with stuff like that lie. Do it you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Like I think you should love how you work. I don't think you should love what you do. I think you should be so frustrated that you want to make something better. But then one last thing I want to go back to is because I don't drink, smoke, or take drugs. So because of that, sometimes, and I don't like small talk, alcohol often does the job. compensation. Yeah, yeah. So it makes it easier. So now that's one of the crutches I don't have. So I can't just go sit there and drink away my anti social things and then become chilled. Yeah. So I have to have some things. I'm the awkward guy waving a board game. It's so weird. People look at me like, Dude, what are you actually doing? Are you kidding me?
Mark Leary 35:33
But I love it. highly differentiated. Right? So you're very memorable. You know, if from a branding perspective, you're like, look, I'm not trying to be different. This is as good as I could come up with. But it's very effective. You know, I've never forgotten the board games. You know, when you from the first presentation? Like those aren't books back there. Those are all board games. Like, Oh, really? So yeah,
Rich 35:51
yeah, I think we spend, I remember saying this to my son once years ago, like when he was a bit younger, and he was struggling to fit in. And I said to him, kiddo, don't worry too much. Because you're going to spend the first 18 years of your life trying to fit in, and you're gonna spend the next 2060 years trying to stand out. And I think I just figured that out early enough. And that fitting in is overrated. And I'm very okay to be uncomfortably different. And it's not that I'm trying to be different, I'm just comfortably myself. And as soon as you can figure that out, it frees up a lot of space for you to put energy into other things.
Mark Leary 36:24
Well, that touches a nerve for me. And that is that I have so many people, I'm 48, I'm still working on my own single gray
Rich 36:33
hair looks so good, I'm so jealous.
Mark Leary 36:38
My hair still a bit damp from my shower, you know, when it dries off, you'll see more gray hair in there. But, you know, being on my own my own personal journey, as a visionary entrepreneur, it hasn't stopped, you know, it was one of the big lessons of the pandemic was that, you know, I had to just let go of the facade that I was some sage leadership teacher. And really, I was just a student being visible. The podcast is a manifestation of me still continuing the journey for excellence getting out of my own way and helping other people get out of their own way, and live their best life. But one of the pieces I've learned on the journey about being real, one of my core values is you know, realness, which, as you know, from working with core values is one word doesn't tell a story. There's a whole, there's 1000 stories behind that word for me. But realness is about taking any facade down of misleading and being clear and an integrity. And that's, and that's not easy to do. But recently, the epiphany has been that I think socially, we value honesty, generically. And yet, if you take a look at what we do socially, we actively and aggressively encourage dishonesty, through fitting in, through being polite through for, you know, being gracious, and all these things that teach people that honesty is actually not good. It's very dangerous, and it hurts people's feelings, and you stop doing it. And so it's a very interesting path to be on as an entrepreneur to say, like, hey, wait a minute, there might be some rough edges. And I might have to go against this unspoken social norm to to maybe hurt people's feelings occasionally and say things people don't want to hear if I'm going to truly be myself and be honest and authentic. And actually get to that real bedrock core value, which is actually honesty, good is actually way more important for social survival than politeness and things like that.
Rich 38:35
So this could be the topic for another podcast. But society punishes you now for honesty. In fact, society at the moment, encourages keeping your ideas to yourself. Because if you have something that could trigger somebody, or offend somebody or be seen as any kind of microaggression, or anything of any type, you have to avoid it. Because people, as soon as somebody decides it's your public enemy. Number one, they will go through everything you ever said on any platform ever, and find something to to attack you with. And so it is, there's a negative aspect of this. And you're absolutely right, we're being trained to not say what we feel. And, you know, if you go back to the likes of Aristotle, there's a great book by Jay Hendricks. It's called thank you for arguing. And he basically says that, according to Aristotle, Aristotle's rhetoric and rhetoric argument is the bedrock of all learning. So you have an idea, I have an idea. We push those ideas against each other, but not for the purpose of you being wrong or me being wrong just for the purpose of seeing what happens. And then one idea emerges after discussion, and we're both like, Huh, that's great. I totally agree with you. And I was wrong. And you're right, and we go on and I'm educated, and that's how people push each other. But we can't do that anymore. It's not encouraged. To take my ideas and you know, so I also eat a plant-based life. And I have happened to go that way. But this is not a topic that I would generally want to bring up because then it's judgmental. And then is this and so we've almost got to be dishonest about these these types of things today. I think I think we're losing something.
Mark Leary 40:22
Well, I think there's a real strange duality, because we are especially United States, you see very strong teaming and partisanship. And just like, you know, people are echo chambering. And I think what you see as pundits and idols among both sides are those people who are sort of unapologetic about who they are, they are honest, even if they're wrong, like way of fact, factual illness is not required these days on either side. And that builds loyalty with the team. But it does bring on the enemy to come at you in some way. And so I do think that there's sort of a polarity there that's creating this very incendiary conflict of you know, cancel culture which is in the, in the heart of that if you know, if you're going to be honest, if you're going to make mistakes, like you know, the stakes are high, man, if you're high enough on the visibility. Totem pole, I guess, and you make a mistake, good night, there's no apology, that's going to work, it seems these days. And so that's a very, it's very, very dangerous time to be honest. But by the same token, you see, people who are just, I mean, you know, a guy like Donald Trump, his cult of personality is about boldness. Absolutely. So it works for him. And he's does it so aggressively, that it's very hard for people who are going, you know, trying to be the perfect cancel culture target, right? He's absolutely the poster child for cancel culture, and cancel culture can't get near him. So it's interesting how both of those,
Rich 42:04
Right I mean, he's visible on social media nowadays, he's not there, they basically blocked him in many ways for many things. But again, I kind of think that if you're on the edge, you've agreed to be on the edge. So and it's fine as well that those pundits you mentioned, like, let's say, Dave Rubin, or somebody like that, they're defining themselves by that age, that is their job, their job is standing on the edge. My job is to be a presentation guy, but I have some opinions. However, the net result is it's removed a whole bunch of distraction from me, because realizing that all of these opinions about us, but I have opinions about US politics, I live on a pimple on the bum of the African continent. Why do I have opinions about US politics? And why do I waste time debating this with people online, and I realized that this is a distraction, it's just another distraction from things. And then the other thing is just be a better person. So it has kind of made me be less contrarian and less of an ass that I could be before. But I think certain conversations aren't being had. And I think that's problematic. But maybe that's interesting.
Mark Leary 43:17
I like that though. Because it gives me a little bit of, I've had some internal conflict around seeing people to say, very bold, crazy stuff, almost recklessly and be rewarded for it. And I'm like, well, I'm never gonna get recognized for my subtle curiosity. Like, that's doesn't sell. And so I just started how to get comfortable with like, well, I'm going to try to be curious, and I'm going to change my mind. And I'm going to ask questions, and I'm going to be on this podcast, and I'm going to say a lot of things like, I don't know, like, what do you think? As opposed to you know, that's stupid? And why? So the people who lead with that stupid and let me tell you why, with no contrary and opinion on the recording, those people do really well. And so I've had to kind of get comfortable with well, that's, that's not going to be me, I'm not going to be doing that. I am going to say stuff that's wrong, I'm going to make mistakes that I'm gonna lead with. This is a journey to learn and get towards truth and be real. And so I think they are paying a price for that. But maybe that's the right way to go.
Rich 44:21
Yeah, I think I think I would buy that. It also depends on the audience you want, right? Again, the people in the market for that are spoilt for choice. On the fringes, there's lots and lots of people who will tell you what your echo chamber said, they will tell you exactly what you want, and you know what you're getting when you go in there. Whereas here, if somebody listens to your show, they're not quite sure where it's going to go because it's Socratic by design. So there is a question and answer approach to getting things and so every single you're entering a theater without, you know, reading the the movie review and that's, that's more interesting to me. Whereas if I see certain people I know that this person is getting interviewed by this person. I already know what I'm getting. And sometimes, by the way, that's delicious. like watching a good debate or a good fight. Like I enjoyed that as much as the next person. But it's not a often a big learning. It's often more of a, it's, it's got all the intellectual value of watching the UFC.
Mark Leary 45:21
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a great example, right? Because it's very unpredictable. UFC is notoriously difficult to be consistent winning streak.
Rich 45:31
For sure. Yeah. So um, so
Mark Leary 45:34
I get a couple things that I want to make sure I asked before we get out of here because we're getting to your time. One is all of this honesty and all this sort of realness, how does that fit into coaching people to speak and present? And you know, what do you tell people about what we've been saying in terms of their, as a typical executive or entrepreneur who's in front of people?
Rich 45:55
Well, so this actually takes you back a few steps to this, this pursuit of craft. One of the biggest reasons that most people, entrepreneurs especially fail to become great, not notable speakers, is because, or even thinkers in general, or to say, they're great thinkers are ready to be seen as great thinkers is that they become the noise to their own signal. So they're out there, we have lots of opinions, we read lots of books, we do all of these things. So we have opinions on all of these, and we share them with the world. So one day, we're sharing a tip on leadership. And also leadership isn't a category. That's, that's like a whole big top of the, that's like saying that I enjoy, you know, Italian food. That's not enough of a, you know, we got to get lower than that. And so they have an opinion, the next day, they have an opinion about sales, and they say they have opinion about family, the next day, they have opinion about these things. If you want the world to know you exist, have very, very narrow opinions and go deep on them. You know, focus what you're saying. And that's the first thing I would say to everybody who wants to to be a speaker is how deep can we get into a topic until you can find a place where you own it, where you can put a flag and say, hey, that's me. That's what I own. And and to figure out what is your work? What could you get excited about being ruthlessly curious about? What one topic could you be excited about? And then once you get there, you know, go deep on that. It's why I think it would make a terrible podcast host because I would struggle to be curious about why I am curious. But I'm forcing myself not to be curious about all of these other cool things about entrepreneurship, because they're distracting me from what I want to learn is this craft and skill of delivering a message to other humans. And for other people, it could be a different thing. So that's the first thing always, then is there is a degree of authenticity. But even that's a bit of a lie. Because I don't want you to be your boring, crappy self, that you're at home with your family, I want you to be the version of you that opened the show, you know, I want you to be that person. And you got to find that because you know, you're delivering your performance. And so trying to work with people about that. However, it's weird, because I want you to be you. But I want you to be a better version of you that comes across. So why did you do because audiences have authenticity detectors anyway, without getting too deep on it. It's this very weird tension between being authentic, but being amplified and trying to figure out where you sit on that, and try to help people discover what that looks like for them and how what it takes them to be talking about to get that passionate.
Mark Leary 48:32
Yeah, I love the authenticity piece, right? Because you and I talked about this earlier. And I've actually this subject has come up a couple times in different podcasts about audacity and boldness, as cheap versions of just attention grabbing, right? You know, if you want to be authentic, don't associate being crass with authentic like, that only works. If you're authentically crass. Like if you were kind of born crass, then that's your brand, right? But if you're just trying to get attention and you're mild mannered and like I'm gonna start dropping f bombs, and we're gonna hit that doesn't actually work. We're not long term.
Rich 49:08
Yeah, so years ago, I used to be that my thing I was this angry Scottish guy who went out and swore a lot and was funny and said rude jokes on stage. And I always push the limits a little bit. And I remember once I was speaking at this event called net profit was the second year. And I came back the second year and people walk out the door. You're the sweary guy. And all you're so funny, or the sweary guy. Oh, I didn't when he introduced me, honestly, guys, you know what your children cover yours? And I was sitting there backstage thinking, how is this my thing? Yes, they remembered me but they remembered me for the most base thing. And it got to the point where my business partner would say to me if I got off the stage, use a show where you're quite nervous on that one. And I said, Why was I swearing a lot and he said yes. And he would realize that when I got nervous and I needed to rely on a cheap trick, I would drop the bombing audience would laugh and you said the right bed never. Because it's a shock laugh. It's like the way you laugh after getting a fright in a horror movie. And then we laugh. And so then I see them react to that. So I do it more and more and more. And I've had to train myself not to trade in cheap, cheap laughs. I want to find content that people really want to engage with and bring it across that way. And it's harder, but it's better. Because now Yes, so hopefully, people will see me as being memorable in some way and having a different presentation style. But now invariably, people say to me, oh, that's the presentation guy, or he does this or he is the expert in this. And that's a far better, it may be more boring. But I promise you, I will trade being introduced as a swear funny guy is being introduced as the slide presentation Guy 100 times over, like, I always want to be that guy
Mark Leary 50:51
was popularity versus utility, I think so you know, you wouldn't be the funny guy that you're going to kill the artist no matter who's there. But you say boring, boring to people who don't need you. But you are the the Craftsman of exciting to the people who are like I need what Rich can help me with like, he's the presentation guy that I need him. So it's you really have to trade quantity for quality. In that sense.
Rich 51:15
The only thing I would push back on this is I don't think there are boring topics or anything, there are boring people delivering boring stuff, boy in a boring way. Like there's anybody can make any topic exciting and fun and memorable for their audience if they make suitable efforts. So I don't ever want to be boring, other than the fact that oh, this guy's talking about that topic. Again, if you're bored of that topic, for sure, then don't arrive. Because that's what I want to be. I don't want to say the same thing. But I want to talk about the same subject. And I think just figuring out what that looks like for you is important and trying to work that out. But once you go deep on that, then it all comes down to enjoying yourself with it and falling in love with your material. It's so much easier to have fun. But to take it back to authenticity, you need to check yourself if you're getting your, your an even how many f bombs allow yourself at most two per talk, right? And only, only if they are really, really necessary. The question is, is this the best time to use this word and this word work really, really, really well. Then do it and buy and own it and don't apologize for it, just go with it. But and maybe you can get away with one more at the end of the thing. But any more than that. And you've just it's just a lazy adjective, or lazy.
Mark Leary 52:39
I love that. So what's one thing you would tell anybody listening to this who's getting ready to kind of be in front of somebody to start down particularly on the path of authenticity, because I think we can talk about it all day long. And it's a deep, deep well, of what authenticity is. It's an internal journey the last a long time. for everybody. It's big. I see that coming. If you see comedians over the course of their career, their their style, it just gets more intense over the decades because they unpack it and they focus it and they hone it. So you're you're an entrepreneur leader, somebody who's like I'm getting ready to start this,
53:11
what's the first step?
Rich 53:14
I think authenticity in general, in any stage craft is a byproduct of comfort, and stop waiting until the presentation that matters to start speaking. So I believe the difference between a leader and a manager is your ability to communicate. If you are not sharing an idea from a business book, if you have not taken three tips from this podcast today, three things to form a five minute discussion just fine. Think about your opinion two or three of the things we discussed today. And go to your team tomorrow, make three slides slide one, slide two, slide three, put them in Prezi or in PowerPoint, whatever, share them online, you next head on deliver a talk to your team. And do that two weeks from now and do that two weeks from then and two weeks from them. And then somebody says to you, Hey, would you come and do a talk on x? two hour symposium, you are already comfortable delivering a message to live audiences. What is frustrating for me is that people wait till the matters No, a no other endeavor. Like no sports person waits to train until the day that they get invited to go and join. You know the NHL, like they train in order to get there. And I think you need to practice in public. So if you are a business owner and entrepreneur, like much of your audience is you have an audience paid to listen to you. Use them and get out there and practice and public over and over and over again, deliver talk to your team lead them, show that you're a leader. And then one day when you're asked to come speak at a big industry event or something like this for you. It's easy to be authentic, because you're already comfortable.
Mark Leary 54:47
Man, awesome. Our time has flown by we could go for a couple more hours easily. What did we miss anything you want to include in the conversation? Now,
Rich 54:56
there was just a lot of fun. That's awesome. So
Mark Leary 54:59
Given just the time in the world, what what what's your passionate plea right now to entrepreneurs across the world
Rich 55:08
need loud again, and there's maybe I should have waited for this a second ago. But the difference between a leader and a manager is your ability to communicate. Your people need more vocal leadership now than they've ever needed before. Uncertainty can be weaponized. But it will, people are looking at you to do that. And to figure out what that is, and to take the ideas from your head and share them with your people in a structured way to deliver a message to achieve a result is not just us saying stuff. It's you saying things to get people to do something different. That's my PT. Go out there and lead. We've been told that to lead is to listen, I'm calling bullshit on that. And that is my one s bomb that I'm dropping in this one. Because I think I feel strongly about it. Yes, listen. But ultimately, if you tell me the name of a leader out there anywhere in the world through history, I'll show you somebody standing in front of a group of people with their fists in the air, and I want you to be that person.
Mark Leary 56:07
I love it. I love it. And I think, to me, that race between listening and talking as if you don't listen, well, you don't know what to say. And you have to really, if you're gonna say you need to pair that up with listening. But you're exactly right. You be seen and lead. I couldn't agree more. I love that. So this has been so much fun. When you come to Houston, man, we got to get together in real life.
Rich 56:27
Yeah, that'd be great. I've already spoken there once in person, and two or three times digitally. So hopefully get back there. At some point. Texas keeps having me back, which is nice. It's a great place to visit. I love it. I just want to go to either college or high school football games. So that's my only thing if I come there. I've never been to a football game. And I believe that the college ones are better more fun ones to watch than the than the NFL. I don't know if that's different
Mark Leary 56:59
for sure. Well, it's kind of your preference. But certainly, I mean college basketball is in is nearing the end of March Madness. And so there is a certain loyalty and community that college sports have that are in football certainly in Texas. definitely definitely has that. So when when you're coming to town, we'll figure out a way to make that happen. It is definitely on my bucket list to make it to South Africa and and do a great white cage diving and all that kind of fun stuff.
Rich 57:26
So Teddy, just nearly had all of the years over here last year, March but or last year, April for DLC, but that was not to be.
Mark Leary 57:36
Right, right. Yeah, I've passed it at least one trip to South Africa to do exactly that, which is how it made it to my list.
Rich 57:42
Time my life it was nice place to visit. And it's like you're spending money and you think that you're not because it's so cheap here for if you're spending a dog, it's insane.
Mark Leary 57:54
Your price tag to get it to go. And that was real money in US dollars. At least I was making some money on that deal. Look, man, if somebody wants to, if somebody's listening to this, enjoy the conversation wants to wants to continue it with you or follow what's going on in your world? How did somebody find you,
Rich 58:12
you can find my business, if I need missing link.com that will take you to our exercises, MSN gnk.com, but I need a missing link.com. And then if you want to find me, you can go to get rich dot F. And that will take you to Rich mulholland.com. But it's easier to spell from both of those. There's links to my YouTube channel to where I talked about all things presentation and vocal leadership. And then there's obviously there are no business links to different programs and things like that. And I would love you to engage. I'm very active on LinkedIn. It's probably my favorite of all the platforms. So if that's if that's your fancy, please pop over and say hi, you're welcome. Follow me on Instagram, but you're gonna see photographs of my kids. And I know that at board games, I know that that's unpopular, and I'm doing it wrong. But hey, I don't have that much ability to focus in all of the social tools. I love it.
Mark Leary 59:04
lag aside boredom Slayer storyteller, those are all books out there that they can check a story center.co
Rich 59:08
dot said Oh, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, everybody says the wrong it's your brain is designed to fix that. Yeah, leg aside the common Boredoms there. But yeah,
Mark Leary 59:18
awesome, man. Well, that's our time for the day. Super fun. I'm so grateful for the opportunity. And for those of you who thought this was good, share it with your friends. Get it in the hands of people who can use this who can unlock their their their challenges as visionary entrepreneurs and live a better life and run a better business. Give us the feedback. Get it out there give if you thought that was great. Give us five stars. That was terrible. Let us know we need that too. But those likes and shares are powerful. We will see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me. Mark Henderson, Mary.
VO 59:48
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe. Go to lyric.cc