Mark interviews street artist and entrepreneur Immanuel Ahiable, where they discuss the surprising link between art and business.
Mark brings up his musical past and Immanuel talks about the business of art. Together the discussion goes deeper into what it is to know what you are in business to provide. Both in terms of what you really do best, and what people find valuable in what you do. They also talk about why it's so hard to relate to your client or customer when you truly become great at your work.
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
IMMANUEL AHIABLE:
https://immanuelahiable.art/
https://twitter.com/immanuelahiable
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Leo Medley
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
November 25, 2019 , Wednesday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, artists, art, selling, painting, entrepreneurship, starving artists, musician, thinking, business, money, music, piece, life, question, work, big, realized, successful, find
SPEAKERS
Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling. Cool. We are live.
00:03
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary and my name is Mark and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so I want to help entrepreneurial leaders feel more in control of their business.
Mark 00:15
So today I'm here with my friend Manny. But that's not how you say it. emanuelle yabe. That's a good, thank you. I work on that. I just go with my Manny. How do you want me to describe you.
00:30
Um, my name is Emmanuel yabla. I am a Ghanian born street artists. And that's my background. That's my main vocation. However, I do everything from video to photography, to poetry, whatever, whatever I can get my hands on to designing. And this somebody who does a lot of within within creations,
Mark 00:56
what's what's going on in your world and tell me what's up, you and I had a conversation over the weekend, and which kind of inspired me you've got some projects, what is what's going on in your world, that's, that's,
01:08
it's firing up your passion. Man, I first of all have to say I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited to see how this turns out. And the type of knowledge people get to gain from this podcast. But as far as what's going on in my world, I feel like I'm in a season of transition. Right now. I'm moving in from, you know, helping just a great friend of mine, since first grade, launched his first tech product, being a creative director in that role, to give him room to be able to push that product forward. And as I move out of that, I'll be continuing what I started, as far as my art goes in my art company, to be able to pursue that, from here on out. So how did you get there? With the art?
Mark 01:56
Yeah, yeah.
02:02
It's a very loaded question, because art has been in my life since I can remember since I was three years old. And so I'll give a little brief up until when I wanted to become an artist. And then when it became an actual career. And so when I started off, I was scribbling on the piece of paper in the middle of classroom class when I was three years old, just because I like the sound of the pen on the paper. And it evolved into me sketching and tracing coloring book, paper. And eventually, you know, I was noticed as that kid who drew all the time when I moved to America with my family. And it wasn't up until, you know, senior year of high school, that my boss at a frozen yogurt bar that we used to work at, she saw my artwork. And this was right after a conversation that I had between her, she wanted me to go to college. However, I was telling her that I wasn't planning on going to college. And so she said, What are you going to do? I said, Well, I want to sell my art to make money off of until I start my own business.
Mark 03:10
Okay, so you saw it as a means to an end? Like, it's, you know, it's absolutely, it's not where I want to get what I have is not what I want.
03:17
Exactly. It's not, it's, it's what I have, it's a tool that I have to use, that's good enough to sustain me up until I launched my own business. And so I wanted to start my own business since I was in eighth grade, you know, 13 years old. And I never thought of it that far, you know, what am I going to do until it becomes, you know, a lucrative business? And one of my friends asked me that, like, what are you going to do to make money up until then, and I paused. I looked at her, I was like, I'm gonna sell art. And it just kind of, it didn't make sense at the moment, but it seemed like something I can make work.
Mark 03:51
Well, so that's, it's so interesting. So it's like, how many gonna hear that a couple different ways. And so when I hear it, I'm sure you've, you have a different perspective, but it's sort of like the story of acres of diamonds like, you know, I, you know, the story of acres of diamonds don't. So, I'm gonna butcher it. It's many, it's a couple of pages, but the essence of it is a landowner leaves sells his land to go seek fortune. And turns out, you know, he spends his life seeking, seeking fortune and not finding only to discover that the land he sold was full of diamonds. And so, you know, it's, it's what's right in front of us, right? So you're like, and I got to get rid of this talent, I got to monetize this land. And I got to go seek fortune somewhere else. And I you know, what? So I'm like, are the diamonds in the art the diamond may be in the art. So what was that experience like for you? Were you were you like looking at the land like I all I can do is this damn art.
04:56
It's funny. I think that's a great analogy for it, because I Recall very specifically a time in my life, say freshman year of high school, where I did my first art shows at a coffee shop. And my, my school and church was doing a fundraiser and selling art, to raise funds for some sort of mission. And I remember spending about a week or two on this painting. And it was inspired by the scene of Judas Iscariot, betraying Jesus while he's on the cross, and then a Mumford and Sons lyric, you know, I was I was thinking totally from different side of the spectrum. And it said, If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy, I could have won. And so that's what the painting ones.
Mark 05:41
Wow, that's pretty intense.
05:43
It's a very deeply rooted quote, in my life since I heard that lyric since I comprehended that lyric. Because, you know, to backtrack on that, I noticed, a lot of the times when I failed in life, up into that age of 14, it was when I didn't care enough. And so when I heard that lyric, it's stuck with me throughout the rest of my life. And so when I created that painting, I spent about two weeks on it, and I said to myself, this process is too tedious. I'm never becoming artists.
Mark 06:15
Okay. And it backfired. Right? Okay. So what was to tease? What was what were you looking at saying? No, I'm not gonna do that. And what was the backfire? I mean, I don't know everything about what you just said,
06:26
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, I remember that. Time, my life, I never know, being that young. I never put that much work into something. You know, it didn't turn out to be my my best piece my most. My most prized possession. However, it is took a lot of attention to detail. And to the scale that I did it on, and the one what I wanted it to be on the quality I want it to be on. It was a lot of work put in to get something that I wasn't proud of. Okay. And so after I saw that process, I said, if this isn't worth it, I'm not gonna do this.
Mark 07:06
So So essentially, you were hypercritical? I was hyper critical, like I know what good is that's not good. That's too expensive.
07:13
Yeah, that's too That's too much time invested. And I think I was just, I just wasn't interested in the process, which is a big factor. When you want to be a painter, you have to love every step.
Mark 07:24
Well, that I mean, wow. Right. So think about every craft, and what's not a craft, like everything's a craft entrepreneurs have to craft mat management to craft, you know, dentistry is a craft. And so that is the journey of the craftsman. And it's only those of us who have been sort of sold the label, like there's no craft, you just sign up, you just do it, you go to college, or whatever. And you kind of spit out the other side. And I guess the reality is, we have experienced the dentist who just doesn't care. Exactly. And they see it that way. But for those of us who see our work as craft, that journey is totally inevitable, inevitable. And it's only that sort of adulthood is the realization that like, Oh, you thought it was long? No, no, way longer than that.
08:11
Yeah, to speak on that. That is exactly how I saw it. You know, well, he didn't see it back then is that that journey? was more than I expected. It really is that little short
Mark 08:27
quantity. So the magnitude of it was like that now, CGI too big. I was thinking Hill and that was that's,
08:32
that's amount. Yeah, exactly. Especially to do more of those type of paintings. So I just remember, you know, in that journey, or at least after that show, I was like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to become an artist. I know everybody else wants me to they like my work. However, I don't. I promised myself I wasn't going to do this
Mark 08:51
product. So that's not small. Right. So you you felt some reaction, right? You were like you were I'm guessing there was some form of rejection or heartbreak or disillusionment that we did you were mad at what you just learned?
09:03
Yeah, yeah, it was, uh, it was just kind of it dropped off the face of the earth for me. And it is kind of ironic, because the painting was about apathy. I just stopped caring about that process. You know, it just said it didn't seem worth it. I didn't sell the painting that night as well, too. Right. So I don't know if it was the expectation of that. However, I remember very clearly that the time that I spent on the painting versus the results and the reward was just not worth it. It didn't seem worth it.
Mark 09:36
Well, so what I think is so funny is what I hear is that once you realize how big the enemy was, you had to make the apathy big enough to to to out to outgun the enemy.
09:48
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, and my apathy was bigger than my enemy. So I didn't win. Right. And that in that sense,
Mark 09:58
I think there's so much power there. How often Do people do that? Right? Like one? The? Oh, well, I mean, it's so deep. What I'm taking away from this, like, the idea is like, you know, we need a bigger enemy. So we fight harder, right. But we in life there, there's no shortage of big enemies, they're everywhere the our ability to grow the apathy and the reasons and the rationale and the reasons to not mode that's there. It's equally limitless
10:21
100%. And there's, like you said, there's no shorted storage of big enemies. However, there's a variation of perspective. And so I was thinking about this the other day, about just feats, you know, what brings people to their knees. And so, I'm very big on health, I'm very big on taking care of myself. And I'm very thankful that, you know, I was born with, with just the things that you're born with your hands, your, your, you know, regular motor skills and things that, you know, we we take it for granted every once in a while. And as I was running one time, I was thinking, you know, if I if I got hit by a car right now, and I lost one aspect of that, How hard would I do? How hard would I work to get that back? And so, right. I
Mark 11:11
mean, because I hear a comparison there. That's the same comparison I have all the time. It's like, you know, everybody who's battled cancer or a loss of limb, who is in I see the same things like, well, they had an enemy and a stated enemy, and it's sort of like they glorify, they're glorified by their heroism that is sort of in the face of that obstacle. It's almost as though the obstacle was the gift. And that's how it's really how they portrayed, but it's very romanticized. It's somebody else's story. That sounds great, but I'm pretty sure it sucks. Yeah, you don't want that. I don't
11:41
want that at all, you know. And so like, in my situation, I was thinking, what would I do to get that back? And so if it was a case where I was supposed to be born with some great artistic ability, or something like that, and I just have had to work for it the same way, you'd have to work for it, if you lost some sort of motor skill that was attainable. How hard would I work to get that skill back? And so to put in that perspective, it's that if we lose something that's valuable, or that's essentially something that belongs to us how hard we work to get that back.
Mark 12:23
Yeah, so I it sounds like you're because we know that something of benefit to us is more meaningful, when lost than hope, hopefully gain excited so that we work harder to prevent loss than we will to try to gain some that we don't have. We're it's a negative bias. It's our scarcity, pre programming and humanity. Is that is that the same thing that you're pointing to like when like, once you you're sort of taking a moment and sort of like, Oh, this is what I've got, I've got this if I were, what I what I measure my effort relative to that, so that played back into your, your thinking of what you're willing to work towards?
12:59
Exactly. Yeah, kind of referring to the enemy. If only I had an enemy bigger than my apathy. And so perspective wise, the, the enemy is that I was facing back then was something that everybody faces now, it's lack of experience, lack of, of knowledge of the process. You know, when you, you've talked, we when we've talked about starting a business before it was me interest in talking. You talked about how in the beginning, you you kind of put 100% of your energy into something and get like 2% back? Yeah. 100 day? Well, yeah, exactly. On day one. Yeah, exactly. And it's very disappointing. very disappointing. And so if that happened to the habit, so many people, however, that the same enemy that many people face, however, people have different levels of perspective, which influences their apathy level, or which influences their drive to be able to defeat that enemy. And so what's interesting in this case is that at that moment, when I realized the challenge that was facing me, I didn't care enough to push past it.
Mark 14:21
In the moment of the choice of becoming an artist, exactly. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, absolutely. And so what does that mean? That so in the moment you you made the decision to walk away, then you have this this realization that you would fight harder for something that you still got that what was the next step after that realization.
14:42
The next step after that realization was it came a few years after that when I realized I actually liked it more so when I realized what I wanted out of art. And it came when I got an iPod Touch Yeah, yeah, that that was thrown into the mix. And instantly I was able to access Instagram and see who are now my heroes and and some of them my friends, you know being on these huge lifts, and not painting these kind of small paintings that I was painting, but painting these massive, monumental, beautiful, beautifully designed colorful works of art. And they look so cool. You know, they were, you know, late 20s, early 30s people that I would look up to as a 17 year old, and they just had a sort of confidence that they exuded from painting. And I realize, picturing myself in that was what was worth pushing a little bit more to be able to gain that skill to be an artist.
Mark 15:45
So what changed? So like, we talked a lot about meaning and purpose and connecting that to business, entrepreneurship, and frankly, in humanity. at so many people struggle with it, I struggle with it, everybody struggles with it, it's not a it's not a switch, you figure it out, and you hone it, and you polish it your entire life. So what was different in that moment? Did you start what we were seeing some bigger impact some bigger, what what was what was starting to come together?
16:10
I think what came together after that was the sense of belonging. And so when I saw people, when they had the interviews about the artwork, when they talked about why they created it, I resonated with what they were saying, This is the why this is the way that I created the piece. This is why I created the piece. And this is why I choose to be who I am. And every single word resonated with me growing up in a small town like Springfield, Illinois, there weren't many people who were talking that way. And so it was kind of that if you can't see you can't be it. And when I when I saw those people, you know, you know, artists like human, she, she was one of the first people I recall seeing at one of these mural festivals when she was talking about artwork. When I saw her talk about her artwork, I said that makes sense to me.
Mark 17:03
So he said a lot right there. So I want to kind of unpack some of it. Police of which is, you know, in Springfield, there's not that many people who are doing that. I'm not convinced there's that many people doing that anywhere. And I guess there's some exposure differences city to city. But I think this idea of looking for yourself in your community is not that easy to do. And it's not that common, I think you do see, the number one predictor of somebody become a major league baseball player is that their parent was a major league baseball player. So there is some connected but that's not the norm, right. So most people don't have that that parent. So there are family lineages where people can kind of see themselves in that and that's great. But I don't I my experiences is not the statistical norm for most people. And so if finding the context, finding your your belonging, which most people are seeking some form of is, especially when there's a profundity you're trying to latch on to it's a patience game, you know, it doesn't happen overnight doesn't even have to happen when you want to do it, you try, I'm going to go find my meaning I'm going to go find my identity, my code, my cohort, my identity and reflection and belonging. That might be a 10 year journey or longer.
18:16
And you said it perfectly. You know, it doesn't happen exactly when you want it. Like I said, I was in a place where art was on the backburner for me. It was something that I doodled over my homework. And when I saw these people doing what I didn't know I wanted to do, but they just did it in a way that made sense to me. That's when the doors open. And now I was able to say I can do this the way that I want to
Mark 18:41
the way that I want to you get permission. validation, validation. Yeah. Yeah, I
18:47
think I think that's really what it was. And, you know, on that word, it seems like the thing that drove me further, was that validation, and not not in a way of approval. Like we like your your work, but it was in a way of this is worthy. This is okay.
Mark 19:11
So I think there's a ton there, right? So I love Gary Vaynerchuk. He talks a lot about not caring what other people think. And I love that. And to me, that's one of those hyper simplified, easy to understand, almost impossible to do unless you commit your life to doing it. I mean, there are people who are there's a continuum of sensitivity, right? Some people are sort of borderline sociopathic, and they can they can they get, Oh, got it, and they're just sort of do that don't care what anybody thinks. But there's the rest of us who are sort of empathetic and sensitive and want to be liked. And we're not okay with upsetting people all the time when people react. It kind of throws us back. But there's something to sort of buying into that we're doing it wrong and which is why this podcast is called We believe we're doing it wrong, or we are doing it wrong or and we are confused. And so just a little validation from the right person at the right time, which I think that's not to be understood and say to either the right person at the right time to say like, you know, by the way, this is okay. And sometimes it's like, what it? Yeah, that's really
20:17
Yeah, seriously, that's exactly how it feels, you know, it's more. So that's one of the, you know, when people talk about the stars being aligned, you know, that's one of the crucial factors of, especially in the beginning, having somebody who you look up to, and you respect and you have placed value on their word, and them telling you that it's okay to do what you're doing. At that right time. That's one of those things that makes the people I remember Muhammad Ali, he talks about when he became a boxer, it was at a time where somebody stole his bike, and he vowed to himself that nobody's ever going to steal for him again. So he's gonna learn how to fight. You know, it wasn't validation from out from a person However, his validation from a motivation for a wrong and I was done so on. And
Mark 21:08
so it's something about you were taught something about the nature of the universe. Yeah. Okay, I get it, like, no, gravity goes down. And you know, and stuff is taken from me if I can protect myself. Exactly. So that's it's a, it's a, it's a truism that comes to life. And suddenly you have some structure, some validation, that gives you guidance.
21:25
Yeah, it's an understanding of this is where I fit in. If this happens, this is where,
Mark 21:30
where I come in, count the consequences of the world and my role. So one of the things you and I talked about over the weekend, and I don't know how much you've got to this, but you know, this the idea of art, and I think that so much of entrepreneurship and visioning in business is it's art, in a sense, it's creativity, we have to take some an entrepreneurship really, truly is about seeing something missing. It's a creative exercise or something that's not there, when there's something that's not right, something is not assembled properly, or something that doesn't quite exist yet. And I've got to take the pieces, parts that are laid out on the earth, and glue them together and take what I've got and make something that makes the world a little bit better, and makes it points the nose upward, hopefully, hopefully, we could really go deep into whether all entrepreneurship is really for the greater good, which, you know, I'm going to purpose of this, I'm gonna say it is. And that's probably not a podcast entirely. But so the creativity, the artistry that goes with that, I think there's a lot of parallels in similarity. So some of the things that I see in entrepreneurship, is that we see a lot of hard luck stories, we see a lot of lost at all, and then made it back kind of thing. And my experience is that those are the rock stars, not rock star. Those are the glamorized stories of really erratic leadership. And there's a lot of very solid, methodical, intentional leadership that happens in entrepreneurship that can be modeled as well and should be modeled as well. And you and I were talking about artists and the the, the sort of similar equivalence, that the starving artists, artists don't make money, right. They're not effective capitalists, and they're not successful outwardly and typical. criteria, but you want to study something different. Tell me about that. Could you repeat the last part of the question you want to? You want to study something different? Tell me about you know, what, instead of the starving artist, what do you what are you interested in?
23:27
I am definitely interested in I love this question. Because what interests me when I go into art is the total antithesis of that. You know, there are a lot of people, especially, you know, guardians, or parents who have children, or peers who want to be artists are very attuned to that stereotype of the starving artists. However, on the opposite side of that there are people in this world who are making a whole lot of money, being an artist, the exact same thing that that person is telling their peers or their, their, their, their children not to be.
Mark 24:08
And so what have you learned so far? I mean, I know we've done this is early on in the process, and kind of my hope is that you're just starting on this. So I want to know, down the line, what you learn. And maybe this is an opportunity just to kind of explore what you think your what do you what do you hypothec What do you know right now, and what do you hypothesizing? You'll find
24:30
what I know right now is that to be to escape the stereotype of the starving artists, you have to do the things that the starving artists won't do. And so there are
Mark 24:43
a ton there, as I said, That's absolutely worth you know, unpacking or I'm just kind of, you know, everybody who's successful, is willing to do the things that the unsuccessful people won't do.
24:56
Right and to break that down though things, you know, there's the habits that the the starving artists have. And there's actually a book that I want to reference. It's real art artists don't starve, hard to find the author and plug that later. But it definitely breaks down the process of these things that Michelangelo did. These are the things that Da Vinci did to be very well off and applied into real life, you know, you see these same patterns applied in their in their daily practice, when they create art, when they network, how they create art, how they put the work out, and how often that they work. You know, one thing that I noticed is that the artists that I looked up to, and that made me want to become an artist, or always around like minded people, as far as people who knew that they can monetize their individual artwork, and collaborate with bigger brands to be able to get much more of a return on the hours that they spent on a painting. Okay, so
Mark 26:04
was that walk, I'll call it the worst thing is, were they selling out? Not at all? How not? That sounds like selling out to me?
26:15
Well, there's different definitions of selling out. Because you can, I think the misconception of selling out is just being profitable off of something you love doing. And I think selling out really is being profitable off of something you love doing it. But doing it in a way that you don't love or believe in that right there is a true selling out. And these artists I look up to, you know, some of them have went different routes where, you know, they've done, you know, collaboration with brands that weren't with their beliefs, okay, but the artists that really thrive, they stay true to their message, whether that's political, whether that's visual, whatever their original look and start was, and they are able to make money off of that. And I think that is a true achievement, of sticking to your guns.
Mark 27:06
So you know, I don't know that world that well. I know from the music world. And so it's all before the business all before marketing, and branding, all before leadership, all that kind of stuff. My role was music. And, and I never made any money. And he said, that was not my path. That was a whole there's a whole reason I switched careers. But what I knew from music school, and in the world of that was that there was the art, the music you tried to learn. And there was that the way people made money, and they really couldn't have been more different. There were the only not the only the consistent ways to make money. were teaching teaching lessons, and playing country music gigs. And I don't know why that's the case. I guess obviously, it's maybe it's a Texas thing. Music School in Texas, I don't because I guess when I was in Boston, that was not the thing. So but at the Texas thing, it was a high demand, high consumption, music and so all these jazz performers and rock and roll performers, you know, when they made money, they played country music, and I think Patton Lee was selling out, that was the way they did it. So the people who in the music world with that know, the economics are a little bit different, who really got to do what they wanted to do. Were very, very small numbers. So what do you see on your site?
28:20
I see it almost the same way. You know, we're using the example that you use, the people who sell out are the people who go from, you know, doing hip hop to country, right? That's a drastic change in Dhanraj. And not because they wanted to, if they wanted to, that'd be a totally different story. But if they did it for the money,
Mark 28:41
yeah, right. Well, and in when you're a musician, the starving thing is real, right? Like you get out of music school, which not everybody does that. But if you get out of music school, there's rent do is come in, and you got and you're and you're looking at, you're trying to get hired to get some kind of work and it's going to be a waiter job, it's going to be a teaching job is going to be whatever jobs are available. And you know, in that it's interesting can can, you know, comparison so if you if you're a musician, and you want to play jazz, and you get a job as a waiter, are you selling out? If you're a jazz musician, and you take a job as a country musician, are you selling out? Well, it's, it's easy to set a say one but you know, you're being very pragmatic. So I guess, you know, part of my where I'm going with this, I don't think this is some of this is somewhat obvious, but what's the path? What's the right path to because I think you can kind of get distracted I think, once your world is it's like you want to be an entrepreneur but your full time working in a corporate gig is never is no time to work on your entrepreneurship. So you have to take a risk. If you're full time teaching and country music and you really want to be a hip hop artist, but you're not spending any time out of the week with you know, with your you know, your hip hop skills. You're never going to get there so I think there's a real opportunity to work against yourself trying to survive.
29:56
Yeah, like like you said when when rent is always do it. Which it always is, it's hard for you to not consider the options of this is what I got to do to make money. That's when I got into painting to pay to pay my rent. And it's a question that a lot of people ask, as far as music goes, I think it depends on the artists, if they stay true to themselves, whether, you know, they are hip hop artists, or whether they're rock and roll artists, they choose to do country on the side to pay their gig. And that funds their, their actual path, the work that they're passionate about, I don't think that saw now, I think when you are bought out, and the thing that you sell is your original sound, your original look, that is when you push out who you were.
Mark 30:50
So I, I think that that's extraordinary, extraordinarily subjective. And I think it's, I'm just I mean, this applies to so many, so many levels. And I want to make this tangible for people listening to this who haven't been in the, in the art or music world, I don't think this is any different in a business, I don't have any type, I think that you you go to market with the hypothesis, of what you can sell, and what you're good at, and what people will buy. And I mean, I think if you're in a mature industry, and you you know, sell fasteners, you know, and you know people buy that there's not that much that sort of surprising on the vision there, they might you might really be struggling as to why you want to do it. And that's very common, right? So if you're taking over a family business, you know, are you doing this to make money to make an impact or change industry, you're trying to, you know, honor your family, there's lots of motivations. But if you're a services, company, services companies are very susceptible to this because you you are providing something malleable, you it's like music in the sense like hey, come help us consulter come provide your your manpower, your people power to do this thing. And which because of people involved, you can ask them to do anything. And the creativity of the individual can be super high, and people can start to add on more things come help us install our computer systems? Well, you did really well, will that help work with the software we did that really will help us with the accounting, he did that really well, with our website, we that really will help us with our marketing. So these things, the ability to kind of migrate super, super high. And the temptation for any growing business, I've never met a growing business, it doesn't feel well, that's not true. Majority of growing businesses always feel like there's a relatively urgent need for more growth. And so it's it's there's rarely a time where people are like, you know, I don't need the money. I don't want the money. That's not the problem most of the time, that is the problem. And so understanding to the most successful businesses I work with are the ones who are really in touch with their own identity. And they have better confidence in when they would say no, what's the edge of their lane? What Where can we play really strong. And so that's the I think that's part of the ingredient. We haven't talked about that. So it's not just about purpose, so much. I mean, it really is about what what your style is your voices. But it kind of comes back to that's a reason that your voice, it's the one that you're great with is the one that people hear the most and to do anything else sort of dilutes it, so you got to know what it is. So maybe that's the ultimate questions like in a business, it might have to work with the leadership team say, what do you guys great at? And sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's their last, sometimes they've been doing anything, everything for a decade or longer, and they're like, I don't really know what we're good at. And that's a harder question. So, so from the artists perspective, how do you see these people getting in touch with sort of their sweet spot like, this is what I'm great at, like, you know, I you know, Coca Cola is a fantastic brand. And I think they can use what I do, as opposed to they're hiring this thing, and they'll pay it. And if I can get the gig, I'll get money. It's totally the opposite. But similar transactions.
33:48
Yeah, I think that's a great parallel, because this is a problem that you run into, both as an artist and as a business person, you know, I've done no business on the side, as a photographer, as a video producer, to be able to make ends meet to be able to do art. Because the thing is, people will ask you to do something that seems similar to what you do. However, that is not what you do.
Mark 34:15
Right, right.
34:16
Yeah. And I get I totally get what you're saying. And it's funny because I had a conversation with one of my mentors, Sidney James, incredible muralist and artists from Detroit, she was saying that you have to know what you do, you have to draw those lines. And some of them may have a gray area some every once in a while, if you do software development, but somebody wants you to design their website, you have to know when to be okay with that, or if you're just totally going to wipe it out. Because that is one of the at least for me, in my experience, one of the easiest ways that has me veering off my path. And so, you know, for artists, you know, in the context that we were talking about, we're Talking about a gig for a hotel. And a hotel hired her for abstract piece. And they're looking for an abstract artist. She's like, well, I don't do that. She said, I do portraiture, you know, I do anatomy and I do things of that sort that are very concrete, you could tell what they look like. Yeah. And so it's okay to say no, she was like, if they asked me to pay flowers, she would have been like, I don't do that.
Mark 35:23
Yeah, there's a contradiction there. That's unintuitive. And that is that when you're looking for stuff to do looking for work, you're asking people do you want what I do? Do you want what I do? And you're like, I know you need what I do. And they buy, they keep saying no, that's that's selling, right selling is, is it's a part of the art of selling. So you're asking all these people, you could be just one way to do but one way to do essentially the archetypal, stereotypical selling is asking a bunch of people if they want what you do, and all of them mostly seem to say no, and you're like, but but I can see that you do, or you do need what I do. And it's very frustrating from a sales perspective. So it's super surprising when somebody says yes, to something you don't do. Like, why would they do that? Like everybody who needs me is saying, No, you don't need me. And why are you saying yes, and so it's it's taught there's we don't have a our brain is not programmed to handle that scenario. It seems so unlikely.
36:15
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's easier to break it down on our level, because it's, I think people look at it for purely utility. They say, Oh, you paint Yeah, yeah, yeah, you paint. neoclassical work? Are you paint realism, however, I need you to paint my house. Yeah, so so they're looking at it from purely a a utility standpoint. So it's like, if you're a software developer, you are great with using a computer, you know how to code you know how to develop software. However, if I need a website, I know, of course, you have that skill set, you're really good at developing this app, or developing this type of tech. So I know you could do my website. And I've seen you do it in the past, because you had to do it for your own website, could you do it for mine? Right. And so you know, that's the same, that's the thing that people from the outside looking in, they have to know that there are margins of, of styles or types of work that people do, are willing to do and won't do. And you know, that's the frustrating part is like when somebody comes up to me, and wants me to do, I don't know, varnish. Exactly why this piece of piece of furniture, I knew I'm capable of doing that, I know I do a great job at it. However, you have to be able to know what people will associate you with after you do a certain task. Well, it's
Mark 37:45
interesting thinking about how in the music school world was music school was was was about learning how to be a musician, which is to say, make the sounds and do that stuff. But that is totally ignorant of the reality of being in a free market capitalist economy that is that is that art is not self sustaining, in and of itself, you have to you our business, in this in this country, every individual is a business, you must market yourself, you know, you exist, you must sell yourself, you must be you know, engage in a transaction, you must close the deal. And you must operate, provide a good or service and you must manage your money. Those are all things that every individual has to do it just like any single business, it's out there. And so the art form is fine, we become expert at our art form, we have the nuances, the tail language, vernacular skills to be internal to the art. But if you go out into the marketplace, there's a greater burden. And you've got a customer, a consumer, somebody, and they're not sophisticated like you. And so I think it's totally understated from all perspectives. I mean, I think that a lot of a lot of people, the entrepreneurial expectation in United States is way higher now. And I honestly think that's what makes this country great. I think entrepreneurial spirit has been at the core. And I think it's actually what the country is about. I think that's the ethos, and we have lots different ways to describe it. But I think what I think the parallel of what how I define entrepreneurship is essentially what the United States is about, and why is resilient. But so I think that language is coming to teach people and individuals to be rugged, self aware, adaptive, and understanding all that. And so that's coming around, but when there's still not in them, even in the marketplace, even when the businesses I work with enough emphasis on like you have to be expert on behalf of the client of the customer. You have to help them make a decision. They don't know what you know, even if they need if they need what you have. And so you have a dual responsibility. One is to be your best and then be able to help them make a good decision, which is to say, you know, understand what, what you do from their perspective. Because I don't I think that's lost. I think when you're trying to become an artist, you don't necessarily have the same To know what you do, this is silly sounding. It's may sound weird, really philosophic notes. You don't, you don't have the same urgency to know exactly what you do and why you do it because you just do it. And but if your customer client consumer, and they have to discern and in, they're never going to have that not never, but rarely going to have the language and the sophistication, so you got to get that you got to Bella would turn to get to the other side of the table and say, all right, where do I where does that person? What does the me on the other side of the table? When did they make the biggest impact? What are they most impactful and useful for and be able to put a language to that?
40:32
Yes, exactly. And translating that as the hardest thing? Because when you understand you understand how do you kind of reverse engineer that to be able to describe that this is who you are, this is what you do to somebody else. And that really just comes with trial and error, at least for me, I realized, okay, they saw that I paint, or they saw that I do photos, they saw that I do videos. And they asked me to do this thing. And I agree to it. But it wasn't me. Right, right. You know, and so with little by little trial and error, you know, if you don't have that defining, almost like a job title or description of who you are, then you're going to fall into category want one or the other. And by noticing where you don't fit in, and where you do fit in, you start to narrow down your definition of who you are.
Mark 41:24
Alright, and I want to underscore that point. And I'm not sure if this is exactly the point I'm trying to make you maybe maybe you aren't, but it's worth underscoring, regardless trial and error. You don't just you don't just sit down and figure it out, you know, just write it down, like, oh, okay, I'll do that this weekend. Right? My sweet spot, what am I great at what what's my passion? And where's my niche? You know, what are those, you have to try it, and it works. And then it doesn't work or it doesn't work, and it doesn't work, and it doesn't work and it doesn't work? And eventually it works a little so that there's importance in that it's a it's an ongoing pursuit, perhaps your entire life?
41:58
That's exactly it. You know, I still find artists who are you know, quote, unquote, just top level who run into this case, you know, people will ask them to do gigs, for digital design when they're a stencil artists, you know, yes, they, they create the the design, you know, in Photoshop or or digitally, however, they don't really do, you know, logos, I think, right? And so exactly, it's trial and error, you find that out, and you try it, you say I don't like this, or I can't do this, or this is just not me, and it's okay to be. And I think it's healthy to be able to define to yourself, this isn't something I'm able to do.
Mark 42:42
So I think that that the the the antidote is to be is to understand that you must ask the question 100%. And I think that that is missed. I think that that is that is totally not intuitive, that I think there, I don't know where it gets lost. Or if it just is never taught that you must always be asking and figure out what you do best. I think even in the music world, it was the best, most successful musicians seem to be the ones most versatile. And, you know, I you don't know those people's names, like they don't have they're not on their names on the record, right. So those people are working. And those people are living practical lives. And there's everything in between there lots of musicians, very successful known in certain industries to study in session musicians, and there's just not that many seats open for for rock stars, right? They're household names. So that's it's unfair comparison to sort of declare everybody else, everybody whose name I don't know, is somehow not successful. That's not that's not the case. But asking the question, and having some humility, especially young entrepreneurs, like, you know, I can come do anything. And, you know, I'm doing this and this and this, and it's gonna go on to this and, you know, one of the pieces of I may rarely give advice. Well, I try to try to give advice. And one of the things that I sometimes see is, I'll say that, well, you seem like you've got a compensate a lot of a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of ideas. But my experience says that you're going to, at some point, gonna have to focus, you're going to have to let go of some of this stuff, because you're not going to be able to take it all to championship level. And I don't know that that question or that challenge is issued enough. So the, the artists that you see successful, are they embracing that challenge? Are they saying like, Look, I'm human, I have limitations. I have a parent, I stumbled upon this gift, apparently, and I'm gonna let everything else kind of drift away and just lean into it.
44:32
100% I that's that's, that's a spot on. The artists that I've know, that I know are successful are people who know they're one thing. No, was Gary Keller talks about that that one thing that everybody's got to know to be good at. They know their style. They know their process, and they do that over and over and over and over and over again. And just different variations of that. They take that they package it they They're able to, you know, put it into this market, or flip it around and add some variation to it. But it's always the same thing. Just packaged differently.
Mark 45:10
Yeah, yeah. So this is essentially what you've already said. But it sounds different to me thinking about it. It's like, you might even be successful commercially, by figuring out what your widget is, and not deviating leading from the width deviating from the widget. It's like, well, how many ways can I use the widget? I can make the widget better. And I'm not going to do anything that that makes the widget worse. That's the thing. That's what selling out is trying to find opportunity that makes the widget worse. Yeah. If the widget, if you understand the widget, and the widgets getting better, and you got more and more uses for the widget, and you're making successful in it's a really weird way to describe so it's sort of contrary, right they aren't is the opposite of widget tree. And so but but if you think of it, like you know, art forms, like I've got, I've got a thing that I do and know how to do and I'm going to continue to make it better, and find more and more useful ways to implement it, and never make it worse, or just not what it is. never betray it
46:06
never be true. Don't make it what it isn't.
Mark 46:09
Which still to kind of go back to the trial and error thing. I believe that that is an imperfect path. I mean, I'm sure that everybody, and probably you I was like, I should do that. It'd be great. And I was not great. No, no, I know, that was not better. You mean, changing what the widget is changing? What the widget is changing? I mean, for you, I mean, speak tangibly? Because I'm allowing us to get a little a little esoteric. You know, so do i do video? Do I do visual art? Do I? What is my art form? What is my? What are my media in like, you can Oh, I've got a style. And I can apply that to all media. Oh, media. Yeah. You know, like, what, what's an example? Do you encounter that?
46:47
Oh, 100%. And like I said, in the opening, I do photography, video, and painting. And each of those have their own different branches of style. But it starts to narrow because it was a lot much more I did everything from poetry to dance to I used to do kind of product design. I designed these little I built when I was in eighth grade, I built these headphones. Okay. very ugly had
Mark 47:18
was that your niche? Like the ugliest headphones? Exactly. No,
47:20
that was it. That was my selling point. Um, but yeah, I used to do a lot. You know, my my friend, Trish, and he compared me to Da Vinci in that way, which is like, very cool.
Mark 47:32
But you know, it polymath I can do I got a I've got an expert's leg on in every place if you don't have an expert.
47:39
Yeah, exactly. But that only lasts for so long. When you want to reach a level of mastery, you have to narrow down on one thing, you have to narrow it down into one single thing. And so for me, it's starting to be painting and everything really, yeah, it started to be painting and everything else that I've learned as far as video, and photography is to help promote that, because those skills will aid in your one thing eventually.
Mark 48:06
So but I bet you said a lot. They're not the least least of which is there's a hierarchy, right? So it's so So the one thing is the supreme thing that doesn't exactly necessarily eliminate other things, if it establishes an order how they fit together, like you know, might have products and services that are not the same thing as my main product. But I understand how they fit together. And so how much quality needs to be in each how much I can expect from each how much money I can spend on and how I need to see them positioned in the mic. If you have a video about a painting. That's different than telling people I do video like that, like I made a video or somebody else's wedding video. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so that's, that's really interesting, because understand that it starts to become multi dimensional.
48:56
It does, it does. And that's what I realized to the smartest artists to do is that they, they establish the hierarchy hierarchy. Because it is it will come into play eventually, you know, I have a friend who who produces music. However, he also does not he doesn't just produce music, but he manages artists, recording artists. And so but he also works at a ad agency for for politicians over in DC. And so it's not it's not exactly what he's passionate about, but he's great at it. Okay, I know he teaches me so much about video and what I do. However, when it comes time to shoot music videos for those artists he's managing, he knows exactly who to find. He knows exactly if he needs to edit how to edit it. And so and he's very good at it. You know, he creates, you know, I would level quality work for his artists, you know, just by knowing what pieces come together and how to how to place how to place the product and the team together. And so what I realized A lot of the smartest successful artists do and business people do is that they use their skills. And the ones they know they won't have the time to do themselves is they either bring somebody else on the team who knows how to do it, or they bring somebody else on the team who kind of knows how to do it, but they teach them what they know. So that they it's almost like a clone of that part of themselves. That's an expert in this area, and they can enforce and invest much more of their energy in their expertise themselves.
Mark 50:30
So that's a whole other dimension, right? So that's a very deep well, you can open the door to which is, you know, what do I do? And how do I interface with adjacent competencies in how do I delegate? Do I, how do I delegate in the business? How do I delegate in my ecosystem, if I'm, if I'm a an IT service provider, and I have somebody needs, you know, sort of a certain type of software install, oh, I can do that look, well, that's not a good idea. I, if I know the very best implementer of that I should pull them into play. And either there's a relationship there or not, but understanding who the best opportunity or the best provider of that is. And you when you get good at that, when you become a part of a larger community have different expertise, whether it's an individual, I mean, it's a very individualistic mindset, we're talking about an artist, there's not a lot of delegation in artistry. So you have to be very dependent upon your community of adjacent providers. Businesses have a little more elasticity, they can hire people, and it's a natural mode to hire people to expand capacity. So you're not you don't I guess that's the difference as an artist, you simply can't like if you're, if you're not a carpenter, you feel it right away. If you're, especially if you're a successful painter, and then somebody asks you to do carpentry, like, Well, look, I don't have the time to do it or learn it. It's just the wall is very, very steep. But as a company that's 50 people like, Well, sure, I can hire a carpenter. Is that a good idea? Well, I don't know. Let's go back to our core focus and figure out what we do. And maybe it's better to partner with the firm. And so it's not as obvious, but we know that when we do that, well, that works out well, it just just more forced in the community of individual contributors and craftspeople,
52:11
Oh, 100%. And set out on to that is what I think is important to know is that there's always going to be multiple steps in any process to this level. And so you have to realize, with each step, where is a step that I haven't, what's the step that I have an opportunity to bring somebody else in. And so artists still have to do with deal with accounting taxes, they still have to deal with pay order ordering paints, when you get to a level where you have a big studio, and you have to deal with somebody who's kind of like a manager or an assistant, or somebody who can be able to connect and call for gigs and, or other mural opportunities and festivals. So the importance of that is to know when when it's important for you not to have to do everything. And with each, you know, with both business and artistry, there's a degree especially now Now, in the 21st century, you have to think like an entrepreneur, as an artist, you have to know who has a connection with somebody who can or even get online assistant, you know, somebody's virtual assistant. Yeah, exactly. Virtual Assistant, because that's okay, you know, that frees up your time. If your strength isn't in crunching numbers, you know, how many sales Do you have to make an art or paintings out to make an art to be able to pay the rent, somebody is able to give you a quota and be able to help you with the things that your strengths aren't in, and you can be able to invest that into producing much more quality. So
Mark 53:48
it makes me think so one of my favorite clients of all time is a company that this is a tremendous culture, built around their passion for taking care of people who other people didn't want to take care of. It's a home health care organization, run by nurses who have been in the industry for many years, and their passion is crystal clear and obvious. They want to take care of these people, and they care about it. And so as a result of being in the industry, in many iterations in different, you know, different experiences, you know, for decades, business, entrepreneurship, leadership were things they had to do. They didn't want to do them, they didn't wanna become leaders, they didn't wanna become business owners and want to do that stuff. But they saw very clearly that if they were going to take care of patients at the level, they wanted those they had to, and so it was on the path that was on the menu. That's what we got to do. And that's what we did. And as a result because of their clear commission, commitment and passion for taking care of the most difficult patients. They, they knew the ingredients were that and they got great at it. I mean, they're kind of self described, not that good, but they are I promise you really phenomenally tight culture really good at leadership really good at running a great business in a great culture. ingredion Kimiko Everything we do is great. And it was it was mission driven. And so I wonder what and just one more point on that is that the companies I know that try to make the business function objectively first, like, we're gonna worry about core values and purpose Second, we just need to get the numbers up, if we can sell a little more. And if we can get our productivity a little higher than we'll have a little more time to think about why we do this. And it's like, that doesn't work. It is not is not what I see experienced at all. People do not fight harder, people do not work better, it's not a good formula, you must understand what your culture is about first, and that is the leading indicators of success. So to kind of flip that back to the artist side of that thing, it seems to me that artists are were taught historically, by the culture by themselves or by the community, that these things like business and money was, was evil, necessary evil, like, I don't want to do that I like art would be so much better if I didn't have to do this. And I can kind of get the concept of that, like, you know, if it's interfering with creativity, but But what happens if you flip it on its head? And you say, like, what if good, finance, accounting and marketing and sales could make it better? What about what my art were better? What if I could do more art, if I got really good at that stuff?
56:13
Exactly. And that's one of those things you have to take in consideration. It's not either or, like all of these things, eventually, you know, if not, sooner than later will come into consideration or coming to be a requirement eventually, along your journey. And so it's a balance view, is that you have to keep your core values and your brand and whatever you want to in mind, who makes you, you, who makes your business, what makes your business your business or what makes your art your art. But you also have to know that to sustain that you do you need the much more you know, the the concrete view of things, you know, the, the logistics, and the accounting and the things that you don't want to think of when you're thinking high level creativity for your business or your art. And so take both things in consideration, have a painting about that, that I did when I was 18 years old. And it was the I can't remember why I named it this. But it was like the poly section of the I can't remember, it was some long, complicated thing. But it was somebody holding a scale of one side it was birds. And it was like a weight he was holding kind of a bowl. And then the other side was just rocks. And he was balancing it while ascending. And it was the balance of the creative side, but also not taking for granted. Or dismissing the the importance of structure of planning of, of, you know, taxes, that's guaranteed like they're there, but you must acknowledge them, you must acknowledge them. And so the successful business people and artists that I've seen are people who are able to, yeah, they may grimace at the sight of you know, having to do their budget, monthly budget, but they do it anyway. And then, you know, whether it's them themselves doing it, or they ignored it to the point they realized that it has to be done. I'm not the best person to do it. But I could hire somebody else to do it. And when that's taken care of, they're freed up to do much more of the stuff that people on the outside See?
Mark 58:25
Well, it's an interesting challenge, because in there's a guy named Dan Sullivan, who runs a coaching organization, he talks about many really powerful entrepreneurial concepts, but one of them is the idea of who not how, and in the how mentality is, is that how do I expand my ability to do it? It's what the pieces I've got, how do I reconfigure it to get more out of this, and you've been that mentality, in his opinion, and I agree, is that we tend to stack our plate with a bunch of stuff we're bad at, and we're super inefficient at. And it's so so wasteful, that we take all of our energy away from the stuff we're great at. And he says the entrepreneur better, more scalable entrepreneurial mentality is who's the right person to do this, because when we find the right person at the right cost, which is a secondary piece of that, you know, sometimes a friend will help you out. Sometimes somebody will do it at the right price, and not everything is affordable, and sometimes the who is too expensive. And that's a longer term problem. But generally asking the question, Who could do this? 400 times faster than me? And 1000 times better than me? Well, you know, I know it's not in my, in my strong suit. So why am I trying? Why am I costing so much? Starting with that, and it but it's probably the other point of that is that we have to look at that differently. Is it as a solopreneur, an artist or somebody what we oftentimes don't think that we there's anybody else at the table? Yeah. But you met a virtual assistant. There's a way to do that. I've got a friend to help me. I've got a community I've got a partnership. I can trade I can I can. There are other ways to get other experts. To show up at the table, part time friendly and reasonable cost that allows me to scale better and enact a lot, especially today, especially with all the things we can do with a global economy that would otherwise in the past only have ever been accessible to a company that could hire many, many people.
1:00:15
Yeah, and I think it's so important to take advantage of that what we have as far as tools and there are people who do it there are people who do it by themselves. Like I mentioned, human she's a beast like she does she handles all her logistics herself, all her deals herself. All all everything herself. And she's like a one man band rocking it. You know, I heard this in an advantage point. Radio and I hope there's people in you know, listening to this podcast, you know, whether sooner or later, who are you know, working a job, then they want to be artists, I hope all this stuff they can research and kind of find that route and Avenue to the artists who are, are killing it out there. But humans a prime example of somebody who is killing it out there. And other people like Sidney James, you know, my mentor, she's she's doing a lot of things by herself. And but there's also a benefit to being able to acknowledge that there's not i can't i can do better. If I have more people on my team. Yeah, I do. I could do much more. And much more better quality work. If I have people in my corner, the right
Mark 1:01:27
people, the right, the right people believe what I believe that think in terms of most most sacred and important and they're in the right seat, they can do this better. You get the get what you need. Exactly. Exactly. Well, man, I think it's might be a good time to wrap it up. But is there anything that has come to mind you want to share closing thoughts,
1:01:51
I would definitely read the book, let me find it right now. Real artists don't starve for any, even somebody who's wanting to go the entrepreneurial route or the artists route, this is a really great book to read to realize that you don't have to go it alone, you know, there are people who are doing it, who you can study to be able to be successful, no matter how convincing, unconventional, your path seems you could be able to, to to find the steps to be able to achieve it. And so my motto always is Go for it. You know, I did an event back in 2018, called gum street under the name of gum Street, okay. And it was just an event for you know, my city, someplace that didn't have a lot of examples for for young people like me, who are ambitious and restless, to just be around a community of people who are going for it. And it was pretty much an event based around that concept. And after that people saw that it was possible, they had connections into examples of people and resources that we're doing the things that they wanted to. And just out of that one event, people were able to move out to Vegas, they're able to, you know, move out to I think one one of the musicians I work with moved out to Madison to record music, they realize they're motivated, in a sense to be able to go for it, you know, and it may be harder on some levels for other people, you know, you may have, you know, kids you may have, you know, debts to pay, you may have things that, that hold you, you know, not hold you back, but are are sort of obstacles or things that you have to really take in consideration. However, there is some way slowly but surely you can get to where you want. And, you know, this book talks about it's called real artists don't starve by Jeff goings. And it's a tremendous book. It gives great examples of people who have made it in the past in the future, and who are making it currently. At this time, and yeah, I just encourage people to go for it. That's incredible. I
Mark 1:04:01
love that book. It's gonna go on I love the idea that book is gonna go on my list for a lot of reasons. And I think it's a great example, which is my daughter's move is studying musical theater. And she's in so many people are artists and I definitely consider that the artists world You must figure out how to monetize something that's very subjective, and talent driven. So it's very near to my heart. This has been great. I think this this is one of my most my favorite topics. This is I think, meaningful to so many people. Because I do believe that visionaries feel art artists, like I think this is going to really be meaningful to them. If not that then people have artists in their world and their company and their families and understanding how it fits together and allowing some of this business and creativity and leadership concepts just start to kind of meld together because I think it all it all is part of the same thing in terms of making sense of it understanding purpose and understanding motivation and the will to fight in the in the in the why would the sacrificing the risk be worth it. Because it all comes down to that there's all the things in our world are about, you know, making some sort of sacrifice and it should be worth something if you know if we're going to pursue a dream It better be ours and going to be meaningful because we're not going to get very far or apathy will overtake us. So thank you so much for the contribution, fantastic stuff. I'm so grateful. If somebody wanted to see your stuff, they wanted to know how to find you or see your stuff. How would they do that?
1:05:26
You can find my work on Instagram. It's Emmanuel I yabla. I m m ANUELHI A bl E. It's a long one, West African. And it's the same across Twitter. It's the same across my website. It's Emanuel Aoyama dot art dot art.
Mark 1:05:49
And we'll make sure we get that in the show notes. So you can look at it and click on that, man, thank you so much. Absolutely. We'll see you next time