Melissa Bushman loves working with small businesses and having the ability to impact the growth of an organization and its teams. This stems from her personal belief in bridging the gaps and providing opportunities to people. All of these have led her to where she is today as an Integrator for Altruvista, which is a firm that specializes in helping business owners capture their wealth by integrating plans and advisor teams. Apart from her professional endeavors, she’s also a wife (14 years), a mom to twin girls going into their 5th grade, a Girl Scout Leader (#TroopAwesome), and an avid sports fan of the Texans, Aggies, and Astros.
There’s a misconception about Integrators being a cold-blooded machine that crushes souls and great ideas. But the truth is, tough people care too and they probably just want you to get where you want to be in your business by saying ‘no’. In today’s episode, we get into the nuts and bolts of the Integrator-Visionary relationship from Melissa Bushman, who is an Integrator herself, what it’s really like to be in an Integrator seat, and the importance of clarity breaks, same page meetings, and yes, self-care.
3:16 You get the best out of people if you truly care about them.
7:31 Being in the Integrator seat is about making really hard decisions to further your impact on people’s lives.
12:15 Diving into the DNA of an integrator
24:24 Melissa opens up about struggling with delegation and how she deals with it.
29:59 Integrators need a clarity break too (one without an agenda)
37:51 Learning how to say no
41:30 Self-care is not just about pedicures or spa days, it’s about outright taking care of yourself.
47:36 The importance of same page meetings between Visionaries and Integrators
55:36 Melissa’s passionate plea to entrepreneurs
“If you have an Integrator, tell them that you love and appreciate them.”
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
MELISSA BUSHMAN:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissabushman/
https://www.altruvistawealth.com/
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
August 11, 2021 | Wednesday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
integrator, visionary, people, conversation, 10x, habits, day, role, ideas, page, talk, person, rocket fuel, struggle, life, puzzle piece, ali, good, hear, important
SPEAKERS
VO, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson, Leary, and my name is Mark. And by now, you know, I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help you get control of that business that in most cases for entrepreneurs is that secret still living the life they want to live. And so part of how I do that is by letting you listen in on these conversations between two people who have a passion for excellence and entrepreneurship in some way, digging into the nuts and bolts and giving you some details that will help you unlock those problems and stuck spots that are preventing you from living that amazing life. And so today, I'm here with Melissa Bushman, who is a fantastic example of an integrator. She's the integrator of AltruVista, which is an entrepreneurial wealth firm. And we can talk about the innovation side of that, but most importantly, her journey to be found and find a spot as an integrator and what it's been, I know the people who listen to this, so many people struggle with what the integrator is. And so I'm excited to hear and share for you guys. Melissa's story. Welcome, Melissa.
Melissa: Thank you for the introduction. Mark, that's very nice, I love it.
Mark: How are you today?
Melissa: I am doing fantastic. How are you doing?
Mark: Very well. And so I think the frame it that the integrator complexity, I mean, if you're an integrator, sometimes it's an identity thing. And this is very intuitive. If you're a visionary you are conceptually the know your leadership and management opposite. But when it comes time to figure out exactly what that looks like, sometimes there are some questions. And there's this puzzle piece concept of every integrator and every visionary integrator relationship is very different. But before we started this conversation, I said something about the vulnerability in the conversation, you're like, Whoa, slow down, Mark. I'm an integrator. I'm not as vulnerable as Ali are visionary, who you've interviewed before. And so if you want to see the comparison, part of this is sort of the companion episode of what Ali's story was. And so talk a little bit about this, how you approach the integrator role, your data-driven vulnerability is not one of your things, what comes up for you, when I bring that up?
Melissa 02:06
There will be zero people listening to this that know me that go, she's so vulnerable all the time. vulnerability is definitely not my thing. I am data-driven. Excel is my love language. I love it. I love process. I love people. I love putting all the puzzle pieces together and making things work. And just making sure I love taking big ideas and bringing them down to the ground and seeing them come to life. And I don't necessarily like talking about myself, I love talking about my team, don't love talking about myself or digging into any of those things.
02:38
Alright, so we'll talk about a friend, a friend who found inner roles and integrator we won't talk about you. I know. So, my friends.
Mark 02:49
Right out of the gate, I see. Well, I do want to talk about the journey, because I think that's important about how you found it and your experiences. Because all he talks about is how he went through it. And for those of you who want to know the experience of a great visionary going through that process with great detail and great vigor. We can talk about your journey, but you already said something that caught my attention. You know, I don't want to be vulnerable. I'm data-driven. And I care about people. And for a lot of people, that comes up as a bit of a paradox, how does that manifest for you?
Melissa 03:16
I'm so caring about people I think is always my first, I just, I think that you're going to always get your best out of people, if you truly care about them, just their lives invested in who they are invested in them as people, people inside the business as well as people outside your business. But how I make decisions and how I run things is data. So I think even how that manifests itself with people is, in order to care about you, I still have to have data, I like to talk to you, I like to know you, I like to know these things. And in the business, I've got to have the data and I have like the facts before I make decisions before I move forward on things.
Mark 03:51
So as a visionary, semi recovering several, several partially accepting of myself, I understand that I start with the emotion. I like people, I love people, I have an infinite optimism for people. And where I kind of get stuck is because I look at the results. And rather than acknowledging the results as either not working or not being what I wanted, and accepting that reality. I go back to the emotional side, you know, but I see more in you. You know, I got one more book you can read that will help you level up and it doesn't matter. This has been six quarters of giving you one more book and trying I'm still going back to that emotional hope and optimism. I'm sensing that you don't have that challenge.
Melissa 04:35
I definitely have hope and optimism when it comes to people, but I also believe that I am a realist. And the thing that you said there that really resonates with me is the outcomes. You can be the most amazing person in the world and I can love you to pieces. But if you're not achieving the outcomes and the role, you're probably not happy and you're not operating at your best ability and we're definitely, you're not happy. So because I care about you, let's find you something where you are going to achieve these amazing outcomes. At the end of the day, I think as humans, we just want to succeed at something. And if you're not succeeding, I don't. I don't think you're, again, you're not in your best self, you're not in your best happiness place, whatever you want to call it. And so, if your outcomes aren't there, that's where I that's where the data triggers for me.
Mark 05:26
Correct. Well, you said, you know, if you take this for granted enough, what you said was exceedingly rich, so rich, I want to kind of start it over and walk through it. And it was, I care about people, I have hope for people. And so where that is important is so many visionaries see the opposite of themselves in their potential theoretical integrator, they expect them to be cold, ruthless, and uncaring, and they're going to fire their favorite people, and they don't share the attachment and commitment to the people in the culture. And that's not what I'm hearing. And then kind of moving through this, you talk about the data, we got to look at the results, we got to look at the outcome, and not once did you say missing quota, or hitting the number, you said that data and the results tell me that I'm not happy, you're not happy? We're not happy. And so it's a very human outcome. And so the results and the acceptance of the reality and being data driven doesn't mean you've turned into a cold machine that crushes souls fair.
Melissa 06:25
I hope not. I don't consider myself a cold machine that crushes souls. I agree that if you only focus on certain things, you will become that cold machine that crushes souls. But no, if you have the best interest of your people, and the best interest of your organization at heart, and everyone has that open, transparent conversation, making sure we're all doing the things we love to do, I don't think you become a cold-blooded machine, it doesn't mean you don't have to make really hard decisions so that you impact people's lives. And that's where it is hard. I mean, the first time I had to make a decision like that, I was crushed as a person. I was like, I don't think I want to do this. I don't want to be the one making the decisions. And I do not want to be the one having these conversations. But someone has to do it. And I think, wouldn't you rather have someone doing it that cares about you?
Mark 07:16
will give you the commitment to follow through on that. on having the conversations. Clearly, you're doing what it's not like it was like, I don't I want to do this. But here we are, you know, here's a couple one or two years later down the road, you're like, this is what I do.
Melissa 07:31
Yeah, that's what I do. I'd say early on, I had what I call the call there, my people coach, my firing coach, my Park conversation coach, wherever you want to call it. And it was just someone who would help me have those tough conversations. What keeps me doing it is it just ties back to that, it's the greater good, right? I want you to be a happy person, I want this organization or whereever an organization is going to be a great place to be. And sometimes, unfortunately, those things are not there, you know, those things are exclusive, right? It's not going to work or you have to make those difficult decisions.
Mark 08:07
Yeah, and it's all those reasons. It's, it's for happiness, for health, for the success of the business, it's that healthy transformation, it's going to the gym, it's pruning, it's having surgeries, all those sorts of destructive metaphors, for finding a way to health for all parties. Absolutely,
Mark 08:28
I'm assuming you did not wake up one day or even be a better example. Or better. You've not always known yourself to be this type of, animal, this type of creature, what was the journey that led you to discover and finally get to the spot of, Hey, I think I'm an integrator.
Melissa 08:49
You want it all the way back from the beginning, like when I first read "Rocket Fuel". So that's where my dream started. I went to a vintage one of my key group presentations. And they talked about Eos. And they talked about this book "Rocket Fuel" and then gave us a copy of this book. And so I went home and I read it and about halfway through the book, I was like, Oh my gosh, that's me. I'm a person I'm not a bad person. I'm not this like, you know, process driven, data-driven like I'm not a machine, there's a purpose. There are people out there who are me
Mark 09:19
here that so much it's amazing to me. Some people who that it's about their they find it. I think that the the pattern that I take away from this is that people who are good at this critical skill are not acknowledged as this if for some reason it's rejected, or I don't know, what was it that caused you to not be able to see that as good and the time was there it was your negative self-talk. Was it people around you? What was it that was giving you the instruction that might be something not right?
Melissa 09:50
That's a great question. A great question, that makes me very vulnerable, Mark. That it's probably selling I think so much of what we do. I mean, it's the baggage you bring, it's the experiences you've had, right? But it ultimately comes down to yourself talking to you and saying, This isn't how everybody else does things, or this isn't how everyone else works. So I must be doing something wrong. As opposed to looking at man, I can work with this one person. And together, we can light this world on fire. And we can do these amazing things, as opposed to oh, I'm not thinking like them, I must be doing something wrong. And I think that's really where the self-doubt comes in. Definitely, there are things throughout my life that I've been told, you know, that helped me form that self-doubt and make it you know, bigger than it was. But I needed it to be But yeah, I mean, ultimately, it's me, it's on me for looking at others than not truly appreciating the value I bring, or the things I bring to an organization to a relationship to anything.
Mark 10:53
It's interesting because the light bulb went on for me because I was willing to kind of go anywhere that question took us that I think it might be, everybody's got their childhood, and their, their, their experiences that color, their values, and I'm not even gonna try to unpack that in itself is a good subject. But something as simple as, when we identify that it's fine, you know, 5% of the population has possibly got the integrator skill set, or I forgot the exact number, it was really low. And so from the visionary perspective, and from a searching perspective, and leadership team perspective is like, Oh, you got to look hard. But there's more to it than that. It is understanding that the people who are really good at this are sort of the black sheep of the of the white sheep herd. And they might not self-identify right away. And they might, and they, they've kind of been, I wouldn't say oppressed, but they've felt odd person out for a while because they have some natural tendencies, that are very common. And it would be really logical in retrospect, that these people feel kind of lonely, isolated, and very different from just for having the ability to, I mean, this is so silly, what I'm about to say, but I think it's true for having the ability to see what's real and be willing to react to it, despite uncomfortable emotional states. That's kind of the DNA of the integrator, and it's apparently rare, really rare.
Melissa 12:15
Well, so I take that as a compliment. I'm like, wow, 5% of the population. Because I've come a long way in knowing that this is what I do. And this is what I'm good at. And I have these weird again, I think in Excel, I think and I like I just have this weird way that my brain works. I've come a long way and realizing that I would say yes, your integrators potentially could be your black sheep. So they're out there thinking they're doing something wrong, whatever, they also probably just haven't yet realized where they fit in. Right? They could be in different roles in an organization or something that just still not knowing, like, why why why not for me yet, like, what am I doing wrong, that I haven't hit my sweet spot, or I haven't hit where I'm at. For me, you know, it happened to be reading a book and realizing I was really, really lucky at the time. And then I was in a role where I had, it was not, we didn't we're not doing EOS. I was not a quote-unquote, integrator. But I had a lot of those skills. And I had an amazing CEO I was working with, he believed in me and believed in my abilities and stuff. I don't think everybody's in that situation. And so I was very fortunate and very lucky that I had that. And then when I read the books I call, Okay, so now what do I need to do to tap into this as opposed to I think it's, I know a big pet peeve of mine, because we focus so much on people's weaknesses, right. And so I think, my professional career, a lot of it up to that point had been, well, you got to bridge these weaknesses, you got to bridge these gaps, you got to do this. And I really then said, okay, but what if I focus on these things that this book says I'm good at, and how how does activate knows, push me into a role that I should be in could be in whatever you want to say. So I really then kind of shifted a little bit to focusing on what my strengths were and what the things I brought to the table were and I was happier.
Mark 14:01
And you were in the same role, right? So you were happier. So you were in an organization where you reach this epiphany that, Wait a minute, this is actually a good thing. And I can level up on the strengths and stop trying to be like other people and other leaders and other managers. And you immediately started getting better results.
Melissa 14:19
Yes, much better results not only in my professional life but also in my personal life. I was a happier person because I wasn't trying to go outside my really natural state. I was trying to figure out how do I activate my natural state to do better? Yeah, and I was happier. It was a good situation and so for me that was my, I mean, that's really rocket fuel was my journey to accepting the integrator in Maine. I took the test and I was a rating integrator of 99 or so I'm you know, I'm just like a raging that I am. I am an integrator.
Mark 4:55
That's a raging visionary. A raging visionary is very common because everybody knows the path of destruction that follows a raging visionary. But I love the enthusiasm because normally integrated sort of like, Well, you know, I just do stuff I'm supposed to do. Why is that such a big deal?
Melissa 15:17
No, I, I have heard reaching visionary integrator I think is also a thing. So
Mark 15:26
Mark Winters talk about that I've experienced that the polarity of the visionary and the integrator. So what you need to have, the best engagement is to people who are sort of polar opposite a plus 10 and a negative 10, plus 100 and negative 100, who is the opposite of style, potentially opposite modes of learning, who believe the same fundamental things and connect on the essential vision, the essentials of what matters? And so too, so the what would your raging integrator, this would imply you attach to a raging visionary is that crazy thought, that feels like a trap, and we could edit that out
16:13
Let me just mark this time spot and see if I potentially, I guess I've never really thought about that.
Mark 16:26
It's my job. That's my job to undo the danger. So you've been on a path and that is evolved. And so it sounds like he just maybe he found an identity and started leaning into it and then leveled up because I know from here, I'll tell a story. on his blog, his bar of excellence is very high. He went through a lot of interviews, a lot of processes, he levels up his game in search, he did everything he knew how to do over a much longer time than most people spend trying to find an integrator. And apparently, you level up, he really understood the game, you still you study the language, you studied the tools, you brought your best self and, and found a good connection. It's probably unrealistic. Most people just kind of flip a switch and go from a con, maybe I'm an integrator, and now I'm best in class, what the journey looks like from recognition to being you know where you're at right now.
Melissa 17:16
So I left that role that I was talking about to not be an integrator, which is interesting. And I thought I don't want to do this. So I'm gonna leave and I'm not gonna be an integrator, and I went into a totally different field and a totally different role. Well, I guess the more role totally different field wasn't what I wanted to do. So I took another job that I moved into a different role. And after being there for about a year, I remember distinctly, I went to coffee with a friend and I was like, I'm lying to myself, This is what I want to do. This is who I am, I need to figure out who, where I need to be, I want to go back to small business, I want to be in an entrepreneurial world. I want to go back to a role where I am an integrator. And that's my title. And we're embracing EOS. And we're embracing this. And that person just happened to be the one who connected me to Ollie. So I left the integrator world and then still had some things where my roles were tied to it. And then really came back in full force to I want someone who is specifically looking for an integrator. Okay. What was that? When all he said was I need an integrator, what was he asking? He was asking for someone to take his vision and make it a reality. So he was looking for someone to he had also read rocket fuel. And he was looking for his puzzle piece, he was looking for someone who was going to execute the day to day and you keep using the word level up, which I love, allow him to level up into where he was in that visionary seat, right and really could grow the business, I think, look at someone who could make the projects that were going on happen. Look for that person that could work alongside him and really help make things happen. He had a traditional job posting for an integrator. So and I think that was good to get someone helping him Look, but yeah, at the essence of it, he was looking for the person who could compliment and do the things that he can do. So Ali is a very unique visionary in that he does the integration in our day to day business for our clients, but doing integration for other people and doing it for your own company is very different things and he really needed someone to come in and be that role for his company.
Mark 19:43
Well, what I've experienced is that you know, a visionary usually has the ability to take something and turn nothing and turn it into something. It's a project state. It can look an awful lot like anything in these two because the craftsmanship that goes into doing something like that is from point A to point B. Right, where integrator separates from visionary is when it becomes an ongoing thing. When the project is over the visionaries like cool next project, we're in a regular business in a real business, it's like no quarter after quarter after quarter, please can't do 90 the 91st day. They're like, I need some different things, something different.
Melissa 20:18
And I think it really, I do think you hit the breaking point when you realize that as a visionary, you're being asked, constantly, what's the next step? What's the next step? What's the next step? And if there's a visionary, you're constantly by your team going well, what should I do here? What should I do here? I think those are triggers for not empowering my team or my team just don't, they don't know there's no, there's no high level process in place. They don't, or they're missing a vision or something. But there's something not there. If if you're being asked day after day to identify the next tactical move to achieve an objective, you feel you've already communicated that objective.
Mark 20:56
Oh, for sure, which is a whole other thing. We know in the US terms, you repeat yourself seven times for the hearing for the first time. And sometimes it's like, I can't believe I've repeated this over and over and over and over and over again, or it's been twice. I can't stand it. The third time is driving me nuts. But that's, that's an important part always a good reminder,
Melissa 21:13
I forget that all the time, it's always a good reminder that it's seven times over communicate.
Mark 21:18
Well, there's a lot of reasons for that, and not the least of which is that people, there's a lot of stuff that people hear. And we know the brain is filtering out the majority of information every minute of every day, and throwing it away is useless. And so for things that don't necessarily scream the level of importance to stick in our brain, there may be important ish, you have to hear it a bunch of times before your brain friend finally actually finds a place to story. I mean, the neurology that is actually important. Like, you know, your brain has to be given a signal, this is worth keeping. And if it's, if it's important to the visionary, that does not mean it's important to a customer service rep who's trying to like, you know, manage their culture.
Melissa 22:02
Extremely valid. And so I appreciate that there's definitely work, you know, a scientific, I mean, to get that, the emotional side of that, I think, is what we always constantly have to remind ourselves, right, reverting back to bite target said this, and I struggle, I struggle with that. Right? And I know, it's frustrating. It's frustrating when people repeat things, you know, I think my kids have to hear things 25 times. They seem to be abnormal, you know? Right. So seven times, like a big deal for me, right?
22:32
But if you counted, I'm not saying I'm just saying if you counted, it's closer to seven and these then the 25 that you think it is.
Mark 22:41
Also, there's the handful of rules thing. So that's parent effectiveness training, we teach that as a metaphor, and EOS that if you got too many rules, it makes it harder to remember as well. So core values our basic tenant of having three to seven critical rules that we can repeat often seven times and, and are manageable to live by, by the leadership team, and by everybody. So if you're having to repeat more than seven times, ask yourself, do you have too many roles? That can be a factor as well. And actually, it was not, I was not an assault on your pack. I'm sure you're phenomenal.
Melissa: Thank you, and I didn't take it as an assault. Thank you. So one of the things that we kind of keep on my puzzle piece with is a metaphor for this unique thing. So when you read "Rocket Fuel", if if you're in a talk and you hear me talk about what the difference is most of the people who are visionaries, or integrators, the light goes on immediately in a conceptual way. But I do find it very often from there when you try to put the car on the road you sort of like well, now what what exactly is this need to happen? And so what we know from the puzzle pieces is it's a very unique experience to get into the details of where exactly the visionary wants help and what exactly the day in life looks like. And so I do think on balance, most new to the process tend to think of the integrator is a lot more hands on than they should be now they're that mean, doesn't mean they're not in the details it did means that they're generally not responsible for the actual typing actual details, actual creation of things.
Mark: So, you know, is that first of all, is that true? Do you think that your job is less about doing the work and more about making sure the work gets done?
Melissa 24:24
It's a great, great question. I would say it depends. I would also say that I have this lovely habit. You're going now down this whole like delegate and elevate terms right. And for me, that's one thing I struggle with, right? Again, I love doing and I will think if you asked Ali I will I do. I will take too much on a well overdue, right and I will struggle with delegate. I think I have my entire career. It's just something I constantly do. I constantly make sure I'm looking at what I'm doing. But I think it depends I mean, I think if we're talking about something that sits in my accountability bucket, I will do more, I will be more of doo, we're in that instance, I have to make sure that if it's not in my accountability bucket that I'm figuring out how I empower activate, you know, make sure everyone else feels like this is something that that you can rise to do whatever.
25:26
But I do struggle with that.
Mark 25:29
That's twice, you've been vulnerable. So I'm not gonna tell anybody though. So, but that's really, really good.
25:34
somewhere. I am now apparently.
Mark 25:39
So that's because what I've discovered is in the end, and I have one rule, with my clients, one rule in the session room, and that is, that if it works, do more of it if it doesn't work, less of it. So we've got us as a framework, we got a tool set, and it serves our purpose, not the other way around, we don't pull this tool set into our world, to serve it and sort of check some boxes in the system that's not useful. We use a system of tools to help us achieve the vision, be our best, run the best businesses in our best life. And so that we always have to serve that. And when we dig into these, particularly the integrator is so customized, and we have to really ask that question is, you know, am I expecting this person to do some work? Or am I expecting them to really zoom out? I've had recently two integrators new to their positions, self independently described, like, it's great to be in this role and have this clear accountability chart. So I can zoom out. And I did not expect to hear that come from the integrators. Because that seemed like a visionary thing to say. But the lightbulb went on for me that it was where the visionary is zooming out, or even zooming in to things outside the organization into the future, big opportunities. The integrator does need to zoom out on the inward facing, is this machine working? And what pieces are struggling to hear the sound over there, there's little squeak over there in operations. Let me go check it out. And so how do you in real practical terms balance that, you know, I can build that spreadsheet, I can build an actual forecast or wait a minute, I need to go coach somebody and get them to carry their load? How do you discern?
Melissa 27:15
So first, I'm super open and honest with my team and tell them I struggle with delegation. And so that I have amazing people working with me that will pull things I mean like I can I let me get, let me take a crack at that. I'll try those kinds of things. I might sound funny, but I schedule the time. So I zoom out by like, I will schedule the time to just sit back and think and look across things and review all 10 meeting notes or review something I've done or think through stuff or talk with someone go have a conversation with someone about something that's going on or anything like that. Most of the time, my really big aha clarity moments come at like 2am. Or when I'm in the shower, or when I'm like walking the dog or doing something mundane or silly. I'll have this Oh, hey, what about this? What about this? What about this type of moment? But I think it's a balance, right? Especially if you are as an integrator, if you are sitting in more than one seat, so I'm sitting in two seats, I have my integrator seat, but I also have an lm AC. So in my lm AC, I am more doing, right. So as an integrator, it's you have to be intentional about doing that zoom out whether it's a clarity break, whether however, you need to do it. You do that's where the magic happens, right? And that's where you can see, hey, you're doing this, you're doing this, and this team is doing this. And I think we're all trying to achieve the same outcome. We're doing it in a different way. Let's come together and figure out how we do this in the best way possible.
Mark 28:45
So that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, you tied it back to the clarity. Right. And and that's, that's the subject I'm so passionate about in the session. And I find myself kind of almost fistfights with people who don't know the concept yet. Like, no, this is the most powerful thing you can do. And they're like, I don't understand, I'm like, I know it because it's different for everybody. But it's about taking that space of, you know, usually 90 minutes or more of intentionally, as part of your obligation and commitment to your job, not some sort of personal indulgence, to observe and ask yourself, What am I doing, what's going on here, what's working and what's not as opposed to being sort of the tyranny of behind schedule, the tyranny of the inbox in the email and all that which is just habit after habit after habit, that ability to observe, observe, and I love that because that is your way to regulate. These are things I shouldn't be typing I do I am the one with the expertise to build this forecast and I will knock it out and it will take me an hour and a half to somebody else will take taking five hours it's really my job to do that. This other thing is not my job, I need to switch into leadership management coaching and really assess if this is in my 10x of my ability to contribute
Melissa 29:59
Absolutely. And I would challenge integrators out there that a clarity break, do not try to build an agenda for your clarity break. Because I did that and it doesn't work. So I think integrators produce clarity writes very differently. They don't have an agenda, right? So you have to walk in. And the first time I did, I went to a coffee shop, I took a bunch of just blank paper and a pen. That's all I took. And I sat there for a good five minutes, and I was like, This is dumb. Now you're describing your life write a paper. On my life, it was good coffee, but now I carry blank paper wherever I go, and blank people, because I don't want the lines, I don't want anything, I just carry it where I go. And if I find somewhere if I have to wait somewhere, I have to do something, I will pull it out. And I will just write whatever comes to mind. Sometimes it's personal. A lot of times its business, a lot of times its just things like I noticed this little thing over here isn't a thing, hey, check that out? How do I check that out? Go attend this meeting, or go talk to this person or whatever. But yes, integrators do not agenda, your clarity, break blank thoughts, blank piece of paper and give yourself space to think and dream and figure things out.
Mark 31:07
I love that, because that's what it is. It's almost like teaching meditation, right? It's really, it's really esoteric, and it seems to for a lot of people. And then the people who get it always come back with, that's the most powerful thing I do all week, or every day or whatever your rhythm is, and for some people are more monthly. But on average, I encourage people to start with it on a weekly basis, because that's a very manageable rhythm that you can predict and protect. But it is, isn't it? People don't understand it until they do the research. How much of your life are habits, things that just follow each other unconsciously. And you're thinking like, that's their thing, the thoughts you think, are preprogrammed habits that are all sequentially linked together. And what's important is, if you're getting everything you want out of your life, if everything's on track, then just let the habits rock and roll. And some of your habits are really good. And that's probably the case. But if there's something more you want out of your life, or business or objectives, you're gonna have to change, there's no way you're going to have to change the habits. And the only way to change those habits is to identify the habits and get them away, and you have to create that blank space. And that agenda is just another way of bringing the habit in. And so you got to say, like, I turn the patterns off, turn the habits off, and be still and let that wisdom that those habits have been pushing off to the side let it come and find you. And it may not come for five minutes, it may not come for 30 minutes. I've personally sat there for the first 30 minutes. It's like I don't know, and then writing an issues list and what's going on. And I'm like, Okay, well, what would be the most important thing out of this issues list I've ever eaten. Okay, let's tackle that. And the last 30 minutes of the 90 minutes is just frantically writing all this stuff. And I got two critical to dues and a phone call. I got to make an it's so powerful, and it would not have happened if I didn't give it the space to find me.
Melissa 33:02
Oh, absolutely. I think the other thing is I get so like me personally, I get so caught up in solving issues removing roadblocks, the things that need to happen, it's the tasks, it's the day to day, and it's hard to switch gears, I'll be Ali has taught me a lot about like, Hey, if you're gonna dig down in the tactical, do something between your jump from tactical to strategic, take a break, take a breath, go take a walk, go do something because your brain needs to honestly reset. And so for me resetting that brain and going into that space, just because of how I'm wired and how I think and just the sheer amount of things that are going on in my head, I have to have that blank space. And if I don't force it, then I will always stay in the tactical and then the details. And in reality, that's where a lot of the magic happens when I pull myself out of that. And I really do try to think what's possible. What are the things? Where are the opportunities? Where are the big opportunities that we're not seeing, because we're in it every day, for sure.
Mark 33:59
So, maybe to shift gears here, a couple of thoughts come to my mind. The integrator and if you visualize the accountability chart sits as the leader that is accountable to the major functions of the organization, the one leader that is accountable to the results of sales, marketing, operations, finance, whatever is kind of in that level. And then they are also accountable to the visionary. So they have two reporting lines, which is not uncommon, but there's a uniqueness to this. And that is that they are basically accountable for being the leader to remove the obstacles and empower the leadership team, the leader of leaders that are managed or managed, especially both of those. And they've got to satisfy the needs and the many fears and emotions of the visionary. So there's a battle on two fronts that are waged very differently and I characterize it as a battle perhaps it's not
35:00
It's not for you. I don't know it is. How do you know which one of those comes to? I'd love to maybe unpack both of those. But what comes up for you thinking about waging, you know, managing both of those fronts?
Melissa 35:13
So you put it very well, I think that was the hardest concept for me too. And I do still think I struggle with that, like, the hardest concept to grasp is you're really serving two objectives here, right? And it complicates it even more through integrators and more than one seat, right? Because then your integrator is accountable to themselves. And that is all over the place messed up and creates all these other issues. But yeah, you have to, it takes even more. So you're looking at, I have to think strategically, and I have to think tactically, and now I have to think, how do I empower my leadership team to achieve all these great things? How do I give them everything they need to be successful? And how do I take these visions? Make them reality? Manage everything that's coming from my visionary as well. So there's a lot, there's a lot that you have to do, and you have to balance. I would love to say, it's easy, I don't think it is, I think it's, it goes back to, you know, where your talents lie, right. And I think it goes back to making sure you have the space to do both of those things. It does go back to our other conversation, though, about the doing versus the leading and stuff, right? If you're so much in the doing, those things will be harder, because you will have a harder time finding space for them. So these are all things I am still learning, right? And what is that balance? What does that look like? And I think if you have a good relationship with your visionary with your leadership team, right, it makes it easier if you have a healthy relationship on that team. But yeah, it's a definite balance or battle, whichever you want to call it, have you know, and it, it can get lonely, because you are in this very unique seat and an organization. And you have to there's, there's no one else in the organization that really is in your seat, right, where you can have those conversations and the what is and how you do this and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, balanced battle. Yes, I agree.
Mark 37:14
So a couple of things to talk about on the same page, I want to talk about your style of solving issues. But I do want to start with that loneliness. Because I do think that that's closely akin to the bad guy. And I say no, a lot. And everybody knows me as and starts to become either resentment or brand problem. Or that akin kind of being, you know, in some way, getting the short end of the stick. You feel that and how do you counteract?
Melissa 37:51
Oh, it's hard. I will say that. I mean, I will say just That's hard. I had a team member one time, give me a pen that you push it and it said no, and like 25 different languages. And I think the whole team laughed. And for me, I was like, I don't always say no, this really sucks. But they were laughing about that. I said, Sorry, that was not the gift you want. But then you think about it. And you're like, you know what, though? The intent was, I appreciate that. You say no. Because sometimes it's hard for me to say no. And so if i frame it in that way, it's okay. Right? Where it is a struggle is if I mean do you kind of get that? Well, they're just going to tell you no, or they're just going to tell you, you can't do this, or you're going to get in trouble. If you do this, you're going to do that like, well, that's really not that thing. And so you counterbalance that by knowing that the intentions are not, they're really not bad. But the real thing is, is you got to find your people, you have to find your network. And you have to find other integrators, who you can learn from, that you can commiserate with sometimes, but mostly learn from and help you see, you know, what the intention might have been or help you form different ways or anything like that. I tell people, I used to be very gifted at not saying no, but not saying no. But now I think everybody's figured out my tricks. And now it's just like, it doesn't even matter what I do. Doesn't matter anymore. It means no. saying no. Whenever it happens, but again, I go back to my unique ability and where it is and all I'm doing is focusing us on a decision right? And so if I'm saying no, it's because we made a decision previously, that this is not the path we should be taking. And I can say no. If if we're struggling to say no. And that's kind of how I frame it internally in my head so that I don't also have to do you have to really learn in the integrator world. Not to take things personally, and not to and again, so much easier said than done. So much easier said than done there. But you do have to learn like it's not, you know, because you do feel like I'm killing all these wonderful ideas. I'm not trying to be the boss killer and trying not to be this person. But at the end of the day, I am trying to be realistic. So there is that and you do you have to find the balance, what's the right balance of like letting the ideas go in flow and killing the ideas. So you make progress over here and things like that. And don't beat yourself up when you don't get it right and celebrate yourself when you do get it right.
Mark 40:39
Well, one thing's coming up for me, I wanted to get a great answer. And the two pieces out of that is the importance of now which I'm going to dig into. But the first part was the self-care component. And we didn't have a great silver bullet on that. But to me, the takeaway is, I think with the idea of the puzzle piece, every unique, every integrator visionary relationship is going to be a little different. So you're going to need your own self-care. And you're going to need it as you can, you are in a unique position to maybe need it more than anybody else in the organization. So don't play around with it, take it seriously get those peers, get those friends, figure out where you're struggling and understand that you're kind of getting the short end of the stick by design. And that's going to need repair and renewal. And you're going to have to you're not going to you're going to run energy, if you don't find a way to recover. That is fair.
Melissa 41:30
100% fair. And I love it. I love that you mentioned I'm actually speaking about this at integrator group in November at the fin summit on self-care. And one of my key messages is self-care is not just pedicures and spa days and things like that. Pedicures or spa days and things are great. But self-care is just outright taking care of yourself, of knowing what is right for you, and taking care of yourself, and saying yes to the right things and no to the wrong things. And not feeling bad and guilty about it. Whatever that is that you need to do to say yes or no to. And I love that you call that self-care. Because it is, you know, your It is a very role, it is a role that I love, and that I wake up every day, so excited to do. But I have to take care of myself, because I am also responsible for taking care of the team and the visionary. And if I don't take care of myself, I cannot take care of everyone else.
Mark 42:28
So I work with high-performance teams. And what we learn pretty quickly is that high performance requires recovery and renewal and care. And for you to be at your best, you have to treat yourself as somebody who needs to be cared for as the best. I mean, you know, LeBron, you know, this way, you know, Tom Brady, that the discipline and rigor they use to take care of themselves is unprecedented. And that is not an accident. That is not a luxury, that is an ingredient right? And so getting every member of the leadership team to understand they got to show up at their best and figure out what that is. And I think that this special call out here for the integrator is that they're probably one of the people least likely to acknowledge that. And they're probably somebody who needs it the most.
Melissa 43:07
Right? Absolutely. And and they probably need people to push them to do it in a kind and loving way. Because they're gonna think of others before they think necessarily of themselves.
43:19
And they're also particularly skilled at saying no, take a break, no Telly, no to themselves as well.
Mark 43:30
Yeah, so that's a great pivot into No. So this is, I had a lightbulb moment. And I want to unpack this a little bit. So I work with a lot of teams right now where the companies that are coming to me and asking for help are suffering from what I call significant or existential problems of abundance, meaning they've got too much opportunity, they're feeling burned out, they're tired of working so many long hours, they're starting to feel like they're starting to lose their best employees. There are really serious issues related to this. And with the philosophical truth of this, is that this problem is self-inflicted in some way or another and that is because when you take on too much work, or you take on the wrong clients, or you hire somebody you know you won't like working with, you have the opportunity to do what guess what they have the opportunity to do say no. And so we don't, because we come at this with a scarcity mindset, we don't want to disappoint people. We don't want to do all those things that go with saying no. And so the integrator has that unique talent, commitment, and ability to say no, and then you've got the short end of the stick. I'm labeled as the no person. Well, I've got half a dozen companies I work with right now, who if they could just figure out how to say no, we all have better businesses and better lives and they're like, I'm dying. And so I'm teaching them how to say no because it's actually not that easy. Because you gotta know when to say no and when not to. And it comes from the vision of Who am I? What's my passion? what gets me out of it? whereas my skill or my skills lie, what's our 10x as a company? What is our culture about? Why are we doing this? And it is really difficult to say no if you don't really know those things.
Melissa 45:17
It is extremely difficult to say no. One of the things I tried to work with folks on is if it's not a hell, yes, then it's a no. So this resonates with my tags. Yeah, so I just call the question. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
Mark 45:33
So 10x is a concept I got from Joe Alipat, a client and friend and guide on podcasts, runs a badass high growth business, and he talks about in his passion is helping people find their 10x. And that has been like, once I started kind of latching on to that, I realize it's been super useful to help people understand delegate and elevate. You know, if you're looking at the things you're doing with your time, there's things you hate doing, and you're bad at, you should stop doing those. That's not a hard issue to figure out. There's things that you are good at. But you don't like doing, you really need to stop doing those things. But people-pleasers have a really hard time with doing that. And I'm in that bucket as well, people keep bringing me more of this work that you hate. But where there was a real light bulb for me, it was like the stuff you're good at. And like if you can do that stuff, it's good 1x on your energy, good 1x output, you can do it lots of you can get, do it for months or years and not wear out of it. But stuff that you love to do, stuff that you're great at, why does that matter? Here's why it matters. It's your 10x. And what do I mean by 10x, it's 10 times easier for you 10 times better for somebody else, 10 times more valuable 10 times something. And if you can figure that out, then you start to see that anything in any of those other quadrants is wasting your 10x multiplier and you got to get rid of it. And that is the essence of the business of the core focus. In the end, you really got to figure out where's your 10x? And I love what you said there, if at the end, if it's a hell yes, it's 10x more than likely. And if it's anything else, correct, it's at the expense of our techniques
Melissa 46:56
it's probably still a really great idea. It's just not our great idea that exactly. Keep it you know, we have said a lot, we have to say no to a lot of great ideas. That's also a great idea, not knocking the idea.
Mark 47:15
What's the perfect entree into it's the same page. It's the same patient this idea that you've got a visionary and an integrator, where you're opposites and in many, many ways, if not almost always, but yet somehow unified around what you believe in most. And so this idea of being on the same page, tell me how do you keep the same page with Ali?
Melissa 47:36
So this is one of my personal passions, which is you must be on the same page, I must be the most sacred meeting that you have, period. We haven't missed one. So how do I find the same page once a month? Sometimes we've done two hours and then find sometimes it's gone a day and we've had to schedule another follow up session the following week. Most of the time we come in right at 434 hours. There is again, integrators, no agenda. No, that's hard. But there is no agenda, you bring your issues to the table. But you cannot agenda out of saying page meeting. But you will take
48:11
a look at the agenda is good news. They particularly as it is good news, and create an issues list and then IDs, your issues until you leave on the same page. Correct. But don't try to come up with the issues list and come up with some login right before I take the first 20 minutes for this. I'll give you five minutes for that I'll take another 20 minutes of this and you get the last 30 seconds before I leave.
48:35
Yep, the phone's gonna work. Seems like success. Now though, those meetings are extraordinarily important for you to line in and really feel confident that the decisions that you're making are the ones that you should be making. Right, I think that I can tell if Ali and I are going more than four to five weeks past the same page because sometimes they fall later in the month, one falls earlier in the month one month later. And I can just tell not because I feel not confident in my role or in my abilities, but because I need that alignment with him. I need that space. I need that time. And I need that ability to ask the questions that I might be having or not there's you know, I keep a list of things to ask and the same page throughout the month. And I take clarity breaks on force the same page and look at the list and say, Are these the things that are the most important or is there anything else or those types of things, but they're just same page meetings to me are extremely sacred. We have good open, honest communication, and I am so appreciative that I work with the visionary that holds those in that same regard. Because if I didn't I think we would have a very different relationship. But we haven't missed one. Even with vacations and COVID and everything, we just do not miss the same page.
Mark: What's an example of an issue you bring up in the same page meeting?
Melissa: Oh, my goodness. I mean, it can be anything from a G, WC conversation to a, hey, you said X, Y, and Z and a meeting the other day, and I had absolutely no clue what you were talking about
Mark 50:18
Archetypical, right. Like, how the heck am I supposed to wait on something that you're expressing to us all? I love that
Melissa 50:24
right surprise. to, you know, I have, you know, I'll go in with, I have this really tough decision. And I need your input and collaboration because I don't actually know if we are aligned on this or not. So we'll talk strategy and growth and things we talk ideas that Ollie might have or things that have come up. So we'll talk. I think one of the beauties of the same page meetings. And it's really not one that I think innately comes to you as an integrator, but one of the beauties is talking years out, writing ideas for next year, the year after things like that. And I think our natural response mind is an integrator is like to grab my pen be like, Okay, what do I got to do? And I got great advice from a fellow integrator, which was like, put the pen down that same page, listen, and if it comes up for a third time, grab the pen, and let's talk about it. But let the conversation happen. Let that two and three, your conversation happen. Because it's things that as an integrator, you're going to want to pull into the veto for later or pull into conversations for later things like that being said, I still struggle with it. Because again, our natural tendency or my natural tendency is what do I got to get done to make the magic happen this year, but magics got to continue after this year. And that's where the visionary comes in. So same pages, that same pages this year, it's next year, it's 10 years down the road, it's people, it's process, it's, it's everything, there are no limits to it, right? There have been times that I've come into the same page, and I'm like, I'm having a rotten, personal crisis over here. And I need to get it off my chest. And we've talked about it. So it's everything. Nice.
Mark 51:58
Yeah, I think it's an important concept because so many things can get stepped on and a level 10 when you're trying to deal with tactical execution issues as a team, it's a very different meeting, right? It's just once a month, it is more strategic, listening to a visionary talk it through because I think one of the biggest assets of the VI relationship is that healthy friction is the reflection. I'm hearing you always say this, and no, it's not what I'm saying. But that's actually what I said. So you're me, let me just think this through a bit more in helping them kind of go back to the Well, a lot of it, what happens is some ideas really surface is really ready. And some of them really surface great, but not now, in that conversation. And it's a dialogue. It's not writing things down. But I do encounter a lot of good asking. Yeah, yeah, I encounter visionaries, who frequently complain about their past life. And even though he might have mentioned this, that when he says something offhand, because of either the authority or the conviction, or just the nature of the people he's around, he's talking, he's thinking out loud, and he leaves and the person is like, well, I guess that's my new marching orders. And no, no, that was just a conversation. I was thinking about one year, two years, five years. And maybe if I didn't even mention timeframe, I if I did, maybe there was the wrong time frames, and people who were used to, you know, wanting to get stuff done. The assumption is that because you didn't put a timeframe on it, you meant now. And so that's not the case that I didn't change orders. And so visionaries do run around the organization and accidentally, and sometimes intentionally, but certainly accidentally, rewrite, erase the instruction set and give new instruction sets without knowing it and the integrator's role is to basically stop that. Yeah,
Melissa 53:42
I think you just the coaching is you ask the timeline, right? You ask the question, you don't make the assumption, you ask the question. Okay, so do you want that done? When do you want that done? And it really immediately stops the conversation. I don't want it done. I was just talking. Oh, we're just talking. Cool. That's good. So I wish everyone could remove the scariness of the person you're talking to right there. The CEO. I can't talk to them. Or they're the CEO, I can't talk to them. You can ask them a question. Clarify it. Don't do it a mean way, but just ask. So when do you want that done and put them in the frame setup? Oh, I just was just collaborating with you.
Mark 54:21
Yeah, I mean, the ink on the check is super powerful. Do not underestimate how that changes the dynamic. But even a guy like Ollie, he's buttoned-down like he's, you know, it's, it's, it's hard not to feel a little disorganized by comparison. Because he is very on point at every given moment. And so everything seems race-ready. I mean, that's a good metaphor, because he's a racer. And so he's, that's, that's the mind the mindset that you got to understand. You could have a lot of authority behind the word I just looked at the time. Time has flown by. It was such a blast on this. And maybe we can have a future conversation. But in the meantime, I want to be with you. For your time, is there anything that we didn't cover? Do you want to make sure we get into the conversation?
Melissa 55:07
I don't think so. It's great questions, great conversation, I don't have anything that I feel I need to add.
Mark 55:14
I think it's been super valuable, a ton of information, a ton of material I know. And I'm thinking of specific people who are really going to get value out of understanding how this works. So I'm super grateful for you being vulnerable, sharing your story. It's really truly important, I believe, for people living their best lives to understand this part of the business. And so what's your passionate plea to entrepreneurs right now?
Melissa 55:36
So my passionate plea to entrepreneurs, if you have an integrator, tell them that you love them. I think that's really what I would say and tell them why you appreciate them, tell them, give them details, and they're not gonna take it right. They're not gonna say thank you all the time. They're gonna try to brush it off, but they need to hear it.
Mark 55:53
That's incredible. I'm not even going to try to add to that that was just such a gift. If somebody wanted to continue a conversation with you see what's going on in your world. How does somebody find you these days? I mean, he's still not getting
Melissa 56:07
find me. I love Can I see with integrators I love connecting with visionaries. I love connecting with leadership. Anyone, just find me on LinkedIn, let's talk
Mark 56:14
Cool, we'll have this link or something similar and linked after this to what you guys do with entrepreneur wealth is really quite impressive as well. So ability to find you that way it is going to be there. But that's our time for the day. Melissa, I have to say I'm truly grateful. This is super valuable. I learned a lot. It's been helpful for me and thank you so much. That's our time for today. Sounds great. We'll see you next time "You're Doing it Wrong" with me Mark Henderson Leary.
VO 56:40