Sean is a classic overachiever on the outside. We pop the hood and see what really makes him tick. He a nationally ranked and world champion athlete, a successful technology and business leader, a family man who has never been happier.
This was recorded just as COVID-19 was starting to be known. It doesn't have the urgency in it that we are all feeling now but did foreshadow some of the healthy habits that we now have to protect and nurture so much more in such uncertain times. Sean and I talk about all aspects of healthy behavior and the obstacles to feeling in control or even happy. 13:30 We talk about perfectionism. 19:30 We talk about daily habits and purpose. 55:00 - My biggest take away personally was Sean's approach to negative self talk. Enjoy and shoot us any feedback you have! Get in touch:
SEAN: parivedasolutions.com | sean.mccall@parivedasolutions.com | seanpmccall19
Production credit: Engineering / Post-Production: Leo Medley Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
SEAN MCCALL:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanmccall/
https://parivedasolutions.com/
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Leo Medley
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
March 31, 2020, Wednesday
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, life, day, world, healthy, moment, entrepreneurs, business, started, learn, optimizing, feel, podcast, question, struggle, wound, recipe, easy, stay, pretty
SPEAKERS
Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary and my name is Mark and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so I want to help entrepreneurial leaders feel more in control of their business. So today, I'm here with an old friend, a very entrepreneurial individual, somebody who I have a tremendous amount of respect for who I think of as a highly competitive, highly performance driven motivated. achiever. I almost called you an overachiever. But I don't know that might be pejorative, because I think that what you do is really excellent. An individual who is competitive in sports in an ultimate, you know, highly competitive, nationally known, and also professionally, highly successful in the world of many different technology, and data stuff, but just an awesome guy. Here's Shauna call.
00:59
How are you, man? I'm doing well. Thank you, Mark. I mean, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for the thanks for the intro. Not sure what to say after it. But it's, it's really fun to be here. And it's, you know, it's fun to fun to be a part of it.
Mark 01:12
So what's going on in your world? Catch me up? It's been a minute, I really appreciate that. You and I haven't really talked in depth in? I don't know, a year. Yeah. Maybe longer. Yeah. Probably longer, probably, almost maybe three years. And so I said, Let's get together. And the our first conversation in three years will be on this podcast, because I believe that we will, you know, accidentally encounter good stuff to talk about that will waste on nobody if we don't record it. So I appreciate your faith. And in doing that, so the catch me of what's been going on?
01:40
Yeah, well, it's easy to do. And you know, I think like, like old friends, you know, it's, it's easy to snap back into it and pick up where you left off. And I like the design of, of capturing it on on tape. You know, to see where it goes. I like that you
Mark 01:54
call it tape. Yeah, I still like it's on. It's on tape. It's on, it's on. When I listen to the latest record. You know, I love love, listen to records. And we got this on tape, and we got to watch the film.
02:04
That's right. That's right. Absolutely. So what's been going on for me lately? You know, the party beta solutions is a technology consulting firm on the edge of disruption. And, and, you know, what's been happening for us lately is that
Mark 02:21
and that's and that's why we talked about phone silencing, but my phone is going crazy, I can get my laptop is good, I'm trying to send it to my phone is on Do Not Disturb. And it's the bypass. It's
02:29
sorry, there you go. Okay. So you know, it's been, it's, it's been busy for us, we, you know, our business has grown, it's really doubled in, in that in that period of time. You know, I think what we've seen in, in businesses that companies are constantly trying to do more with less. So that's been an interesting challenge. And you know, for me, personally, it's been kind of a shift from, from more solutions type mindset to more people type mindset. And you know, at home, it's been a bit of a shift from kind of a athlete first mindset to more of, you know, like, Dad, first mindset, and, and so there's been a lot, a lot of change in those in those couple of years.
Mark 03:12
So those are the areas most interesting to me thinking about. Because like, you know, I always kick off the podcast with a reminder, it's about taking control your life, that's my passion, feeling and control your life, which there's a whole deep well, and what that even means, because you could easily argue that we're not actually in control. But the but the psychology is clear that when people feel out of control, they feel unhappy. And when they feel in control, and they can influence the things that they can influence, and they can let go the things they can't that's a very good formula for feeling happy in life. So much of it is, is that balance? I don't like the word balance. Let me let me retract, it's not about it's about the it's about the recipe, what is the right recipe for life to feel like you're baking the right thing. And I use this analogy a lot. If you're making a cake, there's a certain amount of flour, short amount of sugar, or a certain amount of other ingredients that go in there. And then you say, like, well, sugar tastes good. So let's put more sugar in there. And then you keep ratcheting up the sugar until it's all sugar. Well, that's not a cake. It's a hard candy, which if you want to make a hard candy is fine. But if you're making a hard cake, it's a terrible cake. And so that analogy has always been very illustrative to me that like somebody else's recipe is in mine, and I need to know what it is. And I can't and shouldn't try to put all ingredients, all possible ingredients, or only one ingredient in at any given time. And so your recipe to me has always looked pretty sophisticated. You you've you've balanced a complex recipe of homelife, which is your wife is also very complex. Is that fair to say? That is so? So tell me tell me about when you're putting that with what recipe you're trying to make. Tell me tell me that what are the what are the ingredients and how's the cake baking for you?
04:56
Yeah, well, you know, I think to to pick up the three Read about my wife, you know, biotech entrepreneur, neurophysiology PhD, patent holder. So, so you can imagine the, the, you know, the waters that she's swimming in, continues to be an elite athlete as well. So lots of lots to talk about there. You know, in terms of the terms of the recipe, I think what's what's interesting is that it has a lot to do with what you're optimizing for. And I think, you know, to continue the cake and hard candy, you know, the recipe doesn't doesn't necessarily optimize for, for sugar or for sweetness, as much as it optimizes for the experience that you're going to have, like cake serves a purpose, or hard candy serves a purpose, like, you might be able to have a hard candy while you're in route, you know, or you can pop one in at a stoplight or in a meeting, whereas a cake is a different experience that you need a knife and fork and you sit down. And a lot of times it's consumed with, with people. And so, you know, they, they, they serve different purposes. And they and they have different compositions, I think what, you know, what I've seen as it relates to my recipe is that the things that I'm optimizing for, are shifting. And, and I think that there was a, there was kind of an achievers mindset, you called this out in the, in the intro, that's been present in my life, a lot of that was driven through a need for acceptance, that I think I didn't really realize when I was younger, but was drawn to it. Meaning that my, my capacity and my skill set internally for self acceptance was low. So I started to drive for external acceptance, and I found success through channels, like academics and athletics, where, you know, I got external validation for either good grades, or good performance, or, you know, or, or winning games or, you know, swimming a fast time, whatever it was, and that fed a, an internal need, for me made me feel good, but but also addressed a need that I had. And that led to a pretty strong sort of achievement, orientation, whatever. And that was what I optimized for for a long time. Interestingly, it was kind of at the expense of some maybe healthy cycles of self appreciation, or even self regulation. What
Mark 07:30
I don't want to cut you off, because you're really on a roll, but it's like, you know, hits a nerve, you know, like, this idea of external appreciation and gratifications, like, you know, I can make the joke like, Oh, I don't know what you're talking about, like, well, I'm on a podcast where I, you know, I get the whole thing is like, how many, how many followers? How many likes? How much? How much public appreciation? Can I get to live till I finally get the box checked? And, you know, that's a pretty it's a pretty infinite number to pursue. So I relate deeply to, to that. So. So, you know, you're you're, I'm curious about, you know, what would have, what would have been more healthy?
08:05
Well, I think what I've come to learn since is that there, that that's that that external validation is, is not a renewable resource. It's a slippery slope, almost, almost akin to addiction. There's never enough and it gets harder to get and you you consistently become increasingly desensitized to, to what does flow in? So it's, I feel like I'm in therapy.
Mark 08:35
Yeah. Because this is this is hitting nerves all over the place. Because you're exactly right, you have a great day, you wake up in the morning, and it starts from scratch.
08:41
That's right. I think that's right. And yesterday's yesterday's input doesn't feel the same today. Even though it might flow in same or maybe a little bit better. A lot of times it doesn't feel increasing in the trend line is flat or negative. So So what I've come to learn is that there there are renewable resources, and they come from within. So a lot of the exploration for me and what's been on my journey in the last couple years is it's it's self respect, and it's, its internal validation, and its intrinsic motivation. It's these, it's these parts that are renewable. And, and it's it's tried, it's it's an attempt to try to pull down the need for external validation through some of those renewable internal voices.
Mark 09:32
So this is this is really powerful for me because you package very well as the guy to be like, that guy's got the life. You know, successful life successful in business successful in sports, you know, you're tall, you just professional, good looking guy. And it's like, that's the guy to beat. He's the perfect guy. And you're like, yeah, yeah. No, that's, I really had to do some retooling. So, you know, so what? So what is this journey? like figuring out those renewable self, you know, sort of permanent? is not the right word. It's not permanent. But even even that can decay. Right? So yeah,
10:15
so they're sustainable. Yeah, that might be that that's, that's at least how I see it. You know, the, the external things, they're just not sustainable. It's the, it's the internal parts that are sustainable. So so that's the word that's, that tends to come to my mind, instead of permanent, but, you know, I mean, I appreciate the, the, you know, the compliment in in some of those, you know, like, admirable type things. The, the internal struggle is real and, and, you know, I think that it's, it really is a fallacy to look at others and think, Wow, they really do have it, have it all put together, aside from someone who is highly self aware, and, and shows the capacity to be humble and vulnerable. Because you know, that that's someone who's got the internal sustainable patterns that can lead to a happy and healthy life and somebody who isn't that's putting on the external show, it's lurking somewhere deep inside, whether they're, whether they hide it well or not, it's lurking somewhere deep inside there, lots of pain and struggle that may or may not be visible. So, you know, I mean, I, I appreciate what you said. But, you know, on the it's like, this double edged sword of, of, you know, as well as someone looks like they put it together, including famous people, whether it's musicians, actors, athletes, there's this dark side, that's, that's present that, that I think that we tend to assume, isn't there because of this public persona. But But you know, time and time again, you see addiction and, and social imbalance and all kinds of problems that these people struggle with, that they don't talk about.
Mark 12:07
Well, as you said, that I kind of developed a, an incident theory, which in me is something like, probably totally wrong, because my instant theory was that, that when we look at famous people, it's easier to for a lot of reasons to discount, you can say I'm sure they're having a bad day, and we still compared ourselves to the to the superstars. But there's, there's, there's news and gossip and haters and trolls that we can kind of lean on that can that can give us a little bit of chinks in the armor of those people. It's the people in our everyday lives, who look just believable enough to be more perfect than us that are that are harder to discount. Because, you know, it's it's not it's, it doesn't look too good to be true. It just looks a lot better than us from where we stand. And I think that's interesting. So I got you look,
12:59
I gotta say something i was i was i was gonna comment on the fact that the Word Perfect has entered the conversation several times,
Mark 13:05
well, I'm a person of extremes, right? So call me out on that I definitely go with and when I look at my answers and responses to things, and I rewrite them, I bring them down several notches, because when they come out the first time, they usually come out pretty extreme. Yeah,
13:19
well, it's a sign of a passionate personality. You know, I think I would label myself a recovering perfectionist. Okay. And so in some ways, you know, you're you're tempting me with, with this thing that I'm kind of, you know, that I have in my past that it was a fairly addictive part of my personality. Yeah. And, you know, I think what, what I've, what I've found is that wiring new patterns, or rewiring old patterns, has everything to do with finding a replacement. And so instead of thinking of, like, Who's the perfect person, or what's the perfect behavior, I try to think of, well, who's a healthy person? And what's a healthy behavior? Yeah. And so, you know, when I say that, that's kind of some of the framing and in my mindset, and that's a lot of what's present in my world today is what's what's healthy, what's sustainable. And that's, you know, that's emotionally that's physically, that's professionally, it's, it's socially, it spiritually, it's these different things that, that are the elements of life, and and where does where does healthy come from? It's true in in business as well. You know, what are the healthy client relationships that we have? And what are the healthy employee relationships that we have, and those those are sustainable?
Mark 14:37
So that's really interesting. So this idea of healthy as opposed to most like it's a quantity game, for somebody like me, I'm not going to speak directly to that, you know, that more does seem like more better, you know, anything gets numerically measured, because there's a med teach tons of that, like, we're going to set an objective For the business, you know, spiritually, emotionally, whatever, we're gonna map it back to something numerical. For, because it's easier to do that. And it's it's important. But then I always have counseled my clients and friends and whomever that the numbers are not the goal. They're there. They're a poor facsimile actor. They're just the only way we can really measure progress. So we got to keep going back to the stated objectives. What's our purpose weapon? What do we are we making the right impact or emotion we have? We get to the end of the quarter, and we say, How did the numbers go? Did you? Did you get your rocks completed? Did you hit the revenue goal? And then I asked the question, emotionally, give the quarter a grade. And then we because I because of the scores, the math may tell one story and the emotional story might be another one, we got to go back. Okay, let's go to the vision of what we're doing. Are we still our core focus, we're still on track for that our 10 year target for the impact we want to make. We're still trying to do that. And it's like, well, I don't know. And we have to go back to those emotional things. But when I facilitate people into that, that's, that can be powerful. But I'm thinking right now about like, how often do I just lose track of the quality? It's, you know, 10,000 likes or 15,000, downloads, 150,000 downloads, and it just suddenly, it's like, all I can see is the number and more becomes more. And he said, Well, what's healthy? But that's not an easy shift to go from, like, more is more to like, what is healthy? Because that's I don't think it's I don't think healthy is obvious, you're healthy might not even look like my healthy.
16:30
That's right. That's right, it might not. And you're sort of every quarter, go back, give it a an emotional grade, it's one of it's a great anchor point to try to keep you focused on on what's most important, because I think the short term measurements or maybe even kind of the the instant gratification are certainly, you know, some of the parts of our world are driving us towards getting more and more used to that kind of instant gratification and quick turnaround. We're just a fast moving society. And I think executives increasingly are in that kind of world. So we've got all kinds of inertia going against, kind of slowing down and looking at the big picture. But you know, it is it is, it is there, where the where the real value is so said a little differently, I think it's easy or easier to, to stay in the fast moving world of inboxes, and likes and measurements and the short term turns. And it's a lot harder to look at the big picture and unpack something big and hairy like what is healthy, to try to get to real purpose and vision. And then to go through the hard work of aligning behaviors to that vision. And staying focused on on that I think there are still measurable objectives and metrics that that fall out of that. But I think that we sometimes get enamored by the feeling of being busy or achieving because we're picking up likes or or the KPIs look, okay. And it's, and it's not necessarily sufficiently connected to those bigger picture items.
Mark 18:24
Well, I think it's scientifically it's just chemically connected. I mean, not to get too far down this because we could go down this rabbit trail, and it's a good rabbit trail, but I think it takes us away from the essence. And that is just the dopamine addiction to something like something progress and checking an email, deleting something quickly, those Quick Hits that give us a hit to our brain, it's very, very hard to let go of that. And the whole idea of not checking your phone in the morning. I mean, I struggle with that, like, I get really the good habit, like I don't look at the phone for the first hour of the day, until I fall off the wagon, and then it's like, I can't stop it because I can't. And so I'm actually back on the wagon for two days. I've been sober for two days, first hour of the day, no phone, you know, I need to chip I need to I need a group to be with. So yeah, that's it's easy to say and hard to do.
19:12
You know, stay in there for just a second, I think if if what you said was, you know, being healthy is is having the energy to do my most important work. And, and you're clear about that kind of headline of a purpose, then it becomes an easier choice, I think to look at your inbox, which largely is what other people need from you. And right, right and compare that to you know, the number one objective of the of the day and that's often the important work that that you need to do. That becomes easier calculus to decide which to do when when I think you look at it that way. And and I but I think that we and when I say we I mean me and what I observe and kind of the general population of people that I have exposure to, it's harder work. And so we are tend, we tend to not be drawn to it.
Mark 20:07
We know it's so hard. One of the things that I have built a pretty good habit around, that I've stuck with for quite a while now is the criticality of ending my day with the plan for the next day. And that's not to be understated. There's a whole lot of sciences. I mean, it started with the whole, six things. It's the camera with the guy's name, but there's the there's that I often told possible fable of the consultant, his name, I can't recall talking to Charles Schwab, you know, like, with consulting advice that I don't have any I don't have any more time or money for consulting and advice. You know, what, let me give you one, one tip that you can try to get more done. And if you like it, pay me for it. If you don't like it, blow me off. And we'll go fine. What's that, and it's like, at the end of the day, write down six things. You remember the story, correct me if I'm getting it wrong, because I'm like, is it six or seven, and six things, seven things, but it's not that many, write them down at the end of the day, and that you need to do the next day. And when you come in focus on the on this first one, and then you get as far as you can on that. And then you get to the second one, and then you get as far as you can on that. And at the end of the day, hopefully you've done 1234 of those things. And then the next day, you set it up the exact same way you erase the day, that day. And you just basically setting objectives day after day. And the legend is that Schwab sent the guy $15,000 because it was the most amazing thing that's ever happened to you. I know that's true or not. But I'll tell you, I use some form of that. And it is a total transformation of how I behave. It is total a total transformation. But it is still not easy for me to start that next day with the enthusiasm that I had when I ended the previous day.
21:54
Yeah, it's it David Allen is the is the name that comes to mind, I don't know if that's the one that connects to the story. But that, to me, my experience has been that six items starts to play into my achiever black hole and and it works against me. So I'll tell you how I do it. And I call it the cooking show approach. Okay? what I tried to do is the equivalent of measure the ingredients, chop the vegetables, and get everything ready. So that the next morning, what I do is I just cook So have you ever watched a cooking show where all the other people are smiling so big, and they're they're just grabbing the chopped onions and the and the whatever's in their assembling it all and cooking looks so joyous. And it turns out that it is if you do it that way, instead, the way we do it is we we get hungry, then we go to the store, then we buy everything, then we drive home, then we chop at all, then we assemble it, and by the time that we you know we eat it we've like been through this 25 step process. And and it's it's exhausting. And by the way, you got a whole sink full of dishes still to do. So the way I like to think of it is you spend the end of the day doing some of the hard setup stuff like acquire the vegetables, you know, chop the stuff, measure it assembled at all, so that when you come in the next morning, you're doing the cooking show the filming part where all you're doing is assembling it. So so the equivalent I think for work is you pull all the stuff out of your inbox that you need to do the task, you try to get through something that would be hard some kind of barrier or blocker to the task so that when you come in the next day, you don't open your inbox, you go straight to the thing you're doing so, you know, maybe it's it's, you know, PowerPoint, because you're writing a presentation or a document because you're because you're writing something or it's it's you know, Photoshop because it's some type of design image or whatever it is you go straight to that thing without opening anything else, and you invest. I don't know how much time I try to I try to do somewhere between 20 minutes and 90 minutes focused on that thing. And then you come back to the rest of the world with what everyone else needs. I tend to look at that as a cooking show type of approach.
Mark 24:19
So I love that I don't if you know that I was a chef, right? So so so cook, and Chef, there is a concept and if you've ever been in behind the line, you know this anybody who's really been a professional cook and knows exactly what I'm not to say. It's called me simplus that's the French phrase, meaning everything in its place. Yeah. And that is the whole process of all the prep work. Have you ever heard about a prep cook is a prep cook is the person who dices the onions and prepares the sauces or associate with you that I could provide that people who get all those ingredients that need to be ready to go and everybody participates in that but me simplus everything is in this place enough of everything where it needs to be So when it's time to cook, there's no thinking you're just flowing. So that was interest. I've never heard that before. I've never heard that connection. And I'm going to be digesting that for a long time. And I in my gears are turning. So that's, that's, that's really powerful.
25:17
Well, one of the things that it does is it taps into the joy of cooking, it taps into the joy of work, I think we part of what makes you unique is what you can uniquely produce. And you need your highest energy and your clearest focus for you to produce your best work. So I think when you when you start reversing the dopamine cycle of, of let me fill that tank with Quick Hits from my inbox to let me feel that from the hard work of producing my my best work with my highest energy and my greatest focus, then it can create a positive cycle that can that can really change the game.
Mark 26:02
I mentioned this the other day on another interview. I'm a recording engineer. I'm not I wasn't recording engineer, like I'm a musician, that's for sure musician, and I wasn't recording engineer in college. And I had a brief flirtation with being a songwriter for a short while and I was recording, and I can record with real legit software Pro Tools is my tool of choice. And I can do that work. When it came to record this podcast, I found myself with almost no patience and no tolerance for anything technical, because it just was in the way. And because the with the cooking, the recipe is I want to have meaningful conversations. It's not about being not geeking out. And so it was a really interesting, and I couldn't figure out exactly and I didn't spend a lot of time because I was so passionate about getting this going. That I was like you know anything that's more than hitting a button before I begin a conversation with somebody It was exactly that no tolerance for that. And it just I didn't think too much about it. But I noticed it because it didn't serve utility. But now that you just described that it's you know, it's about this recipe thing like Well, do you take this metaphor, like to the nth degree like you know, what's your restaurant cert? Like? Who's your customer? What is your What are you trying to cook? Are you are you a bakery Are you in so your Mason class has to serve? That don't let anything that might be Oh, I love cooking desserts? Well, this is a healthy foods restaurant, like we can't, you know, like, it's great that you love to bake. And those cakes are awesome, but they're distracting to the people who came here for gluten free.
27:38
I love that story. I think I think what it says to me is that sometimes the the path to figuring stuff out is set a strategy, figure out how to break it down, align your behaviors to to build that strategy. And then I think there's another path as well, which is how do I feel? What need underlies that? And then what does that inform me about about what my priorities are? So you know, you've got a need to connect, something was getting in the way that creates a frustration, what does that frustration tell you about what your underlying need is? And what is getting your attention? And then that that may cause you to either refine your strategy or refine some of the tactics of how you articulate your strategy. So I think it's this bi directional thing. Sometimes it comes top down. And sometimes it comes bottom up. Yeah, but either way, I think it's, it's pretty helpful to be clear about your strategy, and align your actions and behaviors to it, as well as being skilled in tapping into your emotions and the underlying needs of those emotions as a way to inform how you articulate the behaviors and the strategies. And it's this bi directional thing. And to me, that's one of the ways that that I tend to define healthy, I'm like someone who has access to both of those pathways, because then that creates a nice sustainable loop. I've been doing it with my hands, I'm making, like, sustainable circle of like, this feeds that and it goes round and round. Whereas, you know, a non sustainable cycle would say like, I've got one channel, and sometimes there's a blocker to that channel. And if there's a blocker, and I've only got one thing, then I can get stuck
Mark 29:21
to clog. Yeah. And so I can tell you that I self assess is particularly weak at getting access to certain types of emotional states for myself, like am I afraid? Or am I wounded, that I've learned how learning I'm learning how to get more in touch with that because in the heat of the battle, I sense secondary emotions, anger, frustration, which are actually not that helpful. In terms of the cycle you described. Those are natural defensive states are very blunt instruments to try to try to interpret. So it that I'm always working on that because I because entrepreneurs have this problem in my accent Is that when you start your business, or probably even anybody who get puts themselves into a spot that's not ideal on day one, for a bigger, greater purpose, it's so meaningful or big, like, if not entrepreneurs start on day one with no income, and bills, like the guy, though, it's a very dire situation and dire feeling situation. So the overwhelm of that just just erases the relevance of any of these low level emotions, it's like, just gotta find some money, just got to close the deal, just got to move forward. And that's, that's nothing wrong with that, I don't think cuz I think you have your North Star of some degrees, maybe not precise. But you're starting the business and you're in, you're going after something that's really, really meaningful to you, you're taking control of your life. And that's, that's normal. But But what you do is you iterate and you and you improve, you go from no revenue to some revenue, a little more revenue, and a little more work and a little more success in the businesses there. And depending on how things have evolved, and depending on your capacity to do things, a lot of people are able to keep getting more and more skills, and so they can do more and more. Some people don't stay in a narrow lane, which let's talk about that in a second. Let's assume most people, they get more and more skills, they learn whatever they need to do, they learn how to do it. So two years, three years, five years, 10 years down the line, they've done everything they need to, to achieve this general successful goal, which is to run the business with more more more revenue, hopefully, profit. But that entire two or three year five year period, there was no time no interest, no relevance to understanding that emotional impact, like what, what in the last five years were things I loved? And what really gave me more energy? And what could I do more of? And if I had to take things off my plate, what would they be the permission to ask that question is denied so many business owners and entrepreneurs and probably lose a lot of professionals in general, to have access to that to iterate the process. So when we do that, in in session, we're doing that at least quarterly. But when we start the process, it's a little bit more more than that. But it is very much this. Give yourself permission to ask what you want. And give yourself an opportunity to listen and feel a little bit and then keep doing it because it doesn't stay static.
32:16
Yeah, that triggers, you know, the mass loves hierarchy of needs. You know, I think when entrepreneurs get started, they've got some pretty basic needs of surviving and, and creating safety, which, which I think is akin to, you know, am I going to be in business in two weeks time, a lot of the tapping into the emotions and the feelings of what do I really want to achieve? Those get closer up to the top, you know, towards the self actualization. But what we know about Maslow's hierarchy is that you don't spend much time up there, if you're fighting for survival, you stay you stay at that at that bottom layer. So I think this is one of the reasons why being an entrepreneur is so difficult is that is that it's very challenging environment to be fighting for your life while you're trying to construct something at the at the same time, you know, fighting for your life sounds, that's that's kind of a colloquialism that I don't mean, but you're but you're fighting for the survival of the business. And that that takes you right down to the to the base layer,
Mark 33:21
and I'll take you right back. There's no way to overstate it. And I think that people who are not entrepreneurial, don't get it and dismiss it a little bit. You know, it's the good life, you get all the rewards all the money, people in the live for kind of like, you know, why does it seem so hard, but I can tell you, it's it's everything. It's it is absolutely everything an entrepreneur, by and large, not 100%. But most of them, they put 100% of their their own self, their own existence into the business because it is the way that they provide for their families for themselves for the impact in their world. But everything flows through that nothing is in there nothing. They don't have the privilege of anything in their world, in the in the absence of that business. And so when it goes well, it's it's it's amazing, and it's overwhelmingly good. And when it goes poorly even a little bit, it's tragically painful. It is real, even small losses are, are it's it's life and death. I mean, people cry in the session room a lot that the this is really the battle lines of life and death for many entrepreneurs.
34:23
Yeah. Well, you know, Mark, it's, I'm glad you're saying it. The, you know, I think a lot of entrepreneurs fall into the trap of believing that their self worth is tied up in how successful their business was. And and from a from a personal anecdote, I'll tell you that. A lot of my self worth was tied up in how much I would achieve whether it was in business or on on the field for athletics. And, you know, it took a major setback in my life and an injury. I ruptured my Achilles after Hurricane Harvey And, and I'll recap that experience in this way. Life was trying to send me a signal over and over across the last 1520, maybe more years of my life and, and I was ignored, it wasn't listening. And then eventually life sent me a signal I couldn't ignore. And it was a, an injury that had me, you know, in a walking boot and on crutches for a long time and, and in a major rehab cycle. And I think what it what it said to me was that, you know, there's, there's more to this than then you're paying attention to and that and that you need a recalibration of your self worth your self worth is not this athlete persona, it's not the achievement you've got, you got other stuff to offer. And you need to learn that and so life sent me the lesson inside a package that I couldn't ignore. And so I look at it now as a gift, it certainly didn't feel like a gift when I was, you know, waiting in the surgery room to have my Achilles reattached. But, but as I went through the process, which was a very humbling experience, I realized that, that I still had a lot to learn about this. And this is one of the key things that I see with entrepreneurs and with high producing and creative types is that they start to drift towards having their self worth be tied up into the thing that they do, as opposed to the person that they are. And, you know, there are times where I just want to, like, hug the producer and say, Hey, I hope you know that, that I see a lot more in you than then this thing that that you produce yet. I think that, that there's this like, almost seductive element of, you know, I can do this, I can make this difference in the world. And and and that's who I am.
Mark 37:01
So how I mean, that's deep, it's powerful. how healthy and happy. Do you feel right now? You?
37:09
Yeah, well, it's the it's the most help healthy and happy that I've ever been. And I think it's because I'm wiring some of these healthy cycles. And, you know, I'm becoming at peace with some of the, some of the challenges, including shifting my mindset and seeing some of the challenges as, as the gifts that are needed to build out the healthy pathways. So, yeah, it's the, it's the happiest that I've been. I say it relative because, you know, I'm kind of in in early stages of it, but, you know, you I think, you know, what, I guess what I recognize is that the, the goal for me is to be is to be better than I was yesterday, as opposed to you know, trying to be better than you or, or better than, then than someone else, it's really just trying to get a little smarter, and get a little better each day be a bit more self aware. And, and that that's something that I can control. And because I'm achieving that goal of getting a little better each day, I feel pretty good. You know, and honestly, you know, My son is 12 and my daughter's nine. And and when I look back on life, I see those ages as some of the times when there was a fork in the road of of me having the opportunity to be self aware or to confront some of of what wasn't working. And I didn't that didn't
Mark 38:40
see it, and in yourself at age nine and 12
38:42
Yeah, okay. And, and, and people around me didn't help me see it. And so that's one of the fun things about, about being a dad and, and and being involved in their lives is that is that I I'm translating some of what I'm learning now into small threads that sometimes they grab on and they pull also and other times, it just dangles there and they're not ready but but that's been what's fun about about that part of life lately?
Mark 39:13
Wow. I've had a question and I totally forgot what it was gonna be. What are you so tell me a little bit so what you know, what are you finding? Is? Is that is that? Because your kids aren't really yourself? Your kids are still external. Absolutely. So what are you finding in terms of your self awareness yourself? You How do you you know what's your what's that internal asset that you're building up? And how does that start with the conversation look like? Cuz I mean, I'll tell you what. You said it needs a Jordan Peterson even maybe Jordan Peterson Yeah, as a 1212 rules for life. He talks about that don't compare yourself to. I forgot who he said to other people, but it's like who you were yesterday. That's exactly what he's saying. And that ties back into like all the great golfers who have Like, you know, when you're when you're on that hole, you were somebody was coming up behind you. And you know, how do you feel about that. And they're like, I didn't even know they were playing back there, I just knew that I had a putt in front of me. And so the greatest tend to be able to do that is a little bit better than they were themselves. But I I'm just constantly I got to be honest. And I'm constantly comparing myself to other people, and it is very, very hard. How are you? How are you going inward and staying inward? Yeah.
40:25
I'll see if I can unpack a few of those things. I don't know that I got great answers, but I'll tell you how I think about it. You know, as it relates to the kids, I've got a pretty fiercely independent personality, and I never liked being lectured. Nor did I like being told. So I try to tap into that, as I'm offering thoughts to my children to see what threads they'll pull. I find that when I start telling them and lecturing them, I fall into old patterns that were taught to me, we're not gonna work for work. Yeah. And, and so I, you know, I'm not great at it, but I'm at least aware of it. You know, I think that, that one of the mindset shifts for me has been, in my past, it's been what, what will others think about this, about this performance? Or this moment? Or, or how I look or, or whatever. And, and I have tried to shift it to, you know, how, how will I feel about it? How do I, how do I feel in this moment? And, and to let that be enough? You know, like, you know, I think even even the podcast is, is is a good example, I, you know, it could be thinking about how Will someone Hear my words, but instead, I'm choosing to say, how truthful Can I be to myself in this moment, and just to let that be enough, you know, when the podcast posts or publishes, it's going to be what it is, yeah. And, and, and I'm, and I'm, I am 100% at peace with allowing that to be what it is. And if someone comes back and says, Hey, you know, you said this, and I disagree, then, then that's a gift of, well, let's explore something together. I'm interested in your perspective. So so I think that's some of what, what's triggered in my mind, when you ask, Well, you know, how do you? How do you go there?
Mark 42:27
Well, okay, so it sounds very much like just mindfulness and presence. I mean, it's the whole idea behind meditation, much of what's prescribed these days is meditation, you know, headspace and all that. It's all about being in the moment. And so there's, there's a lot there actually. Because I think of, Well, two things come to mind. One is just that idea of mindfulness and presence and making the most of it. But then there's a second piece of that, that I think is, you know, if you're really following Eckhart Tolle, and he's saying, you know, doesn't matter how bad your life is, if you're can be present, it's better than if you're, you know, imagining the worst of the past and when the worst of the future, you'll be present. And you can make good things out of that. And I think there's some truth to that. And I think that can be useful, especially if you're locked in a concentration camp or something like that, and you're in, you're doing something like that. But I don't think that's the journey of most people on most days. And so what crossed my mind is, you know, to be present in the moment, and to make the most of the moment, you should probably be doing things that are the right things for you, like me, and I have choices about how I can spend my time. And there are some things we do because we need to do them because the outcome we're trying to create and and as I'm definitely thinking this out loud as I say it, but there, we definitely have choices, we can definitely eliminate things like this podcast, for example, because I, I did it as a need for myself, like I What are you trying to do trying to grow your business? I don't think so. I think I'm trying to just do this, I think and I think there's something to it, and I'm not exactly sure what and but it's so far been good. And people give me great feedback on it. And it's just it is, if I'm having a bad day, I'm not feeling good. And as soon as I hit the record button, I'm electrified and it's and it's, it's truly a gift and it is in and of itself enough and so I'm you know, what other things can be Can I be doing like this that are just in enough or enough in and of themselves? Yeah,
44:37
yeah. Well, you know, there's there's a lot that's in there. You You're calling out to meditation and mindfulness and and tapping into your own needs and what you need. I think that the way it it's organized in my mind is that there are proactive things that you can do and I think the podcast is one of them for you. You recognize the need you initially Action, it's proactive, and it fills your tank. That's really the I think the and that's good. That's just like the tagline of the podcast, you're taking control. And you're and you're living the life that you that you want to lead. That's awesome. What I think is, is, is also interesting, it's the reactive side. So it's not the stuff that you're proactive with, it's the reactive side of, of what happens around you, whether it's someone's personality that you have to deal with rubs you the wrong way, or someone cuts you off on the highway or your car doesn't start when you, you know, push it for the third time when you try it out to happen to you this morning. Not that that would happen. And not that not that I'm running a zero contingency type environment at the moment. But, but it's really this reactive thing of, of how do you respond when, when these things happen. And, and I think that one of the key pieces that my meditation practice has helped me see is that I'm fully in control of how I respond. I'm not at all in control of what happens to me, but I am fully in control of how I respond. And so I can choose to see it a certain way. And and I think once you take the agency in that, that, that unlocks a wide open landscape of what choice that you that you have, because I think it's easy to fall into a victim mentality or or some type of hopeless hopelessness, that, that I'm the victim, victim of a circumstance but but there's all kinds of range that we've got. And there's there's all kinds of blue sky that's above the clouds.
Mark 46:44
For sure, so that that agency idea and understanding your own power. And I think I think it's I don't think it's easy to really understand what that means to be in to feel, feel okay, accepting the lack of control of what happens to you and having control of how you react to it. Because I think it feeds into this idea of like, Extreme Ownership, you know, Jocko willings approach you familiar with that? Yeah. So you end up saying, you know, almost by default by rote, you know, you know, it's, it's my fault, doesn't matter what just happened, doesn't matter what's going to happen, it's my fault. And I think there's an opportunity to, to overestimate your control, in that if you don't have good good clarity of which side is that because then you start when things go poorly, due to external circumstances, you know, virus outbreak, could really change your world very quickly, if you can't get to where you're planning to go. And you can say, Well, I could have foreseen this, like, I could have made different travel plans, I could have done other things. And it is a kind of a bottomless well of ability to take accountability. Because you can rationalize a path to prevent kind of anything external, I think it's interesting, I'm saying, right. So do you think that there is any danger of over ownership and becoming competitive with yourself over things you don't have control over? Because you can think your way into a way to have prevented anything? Absolutely,
48:11
here's a pretty raw thought. I think one of the ways that I tend to see be unhealthy is a balance of internal and external orientation, as well as a balance of, of, you know, maybe, maybe blame and, and, maybe control or agency. So you know, I think it feels like a polarity, you know, you you, there's always internal and there's always external, there's always agency you can take and, and things that are that are out of your control. And if you stay on one of those sides for an extended period of time, you'll be in an unhealthy place. So I think a lot of life as a, as a mature person is being able to move through those states and understand that, that be unhealthy is is having the, the skills to move through those states knowing that this is temporary, this too shall pass and, and that I'm I'm managing a an ad in a dynamic context. That's what feels healthy because things are gonna change and, and we change and, and as the all that happens, you know, sustainability comes from from being able to, to move,
Mark 49:38
for sure. And the phrase that comes to mind that cap that I think is used to kind of capture and include a lot of what you just said, is self compassion. And which again, becomes like, what does that even mean? And and the, and I think what it means to me, Well, I know what it means to me, as I'm learning. It is When you look at the mess, meaning life, you look at what happened. It wasn't perfect. And it was never gonna be perfect. And, you know, I could have planned better not I should have planned better yet there was a way and, and you feeling a sense of loss at the moment itself, and you're feeling like, you know, bad or disappointed or hurt as a result of a sequence of events that have unfolded. And that's okay, self. Don't, don't ignore that, and then go and then go react to that. And that's the idea of self compassion is somewhat new on the scene, it's replacing what used to be self esteem, because we're finding that that's not as useful, but to be able to look at ourselves and accept that imperfect line between chaos and order, the imperfect line between external factors and our decisions that net them in an imperfect way, and not getting wrapped up there. And being able to accept it, see it, learn from it, and then turn the page.
51:13
Yeah, I love it. I'll share probably the the most impactful thing that I've learned in the last year of my life. It comes from Marshall Rosenberg book called nonviolent communication, I'm familiar. And this central tenet is the power of observation without judgment. And what I've come to learn is that one of the main reasons why my self compassion was so low, is that I was constantly judging myself. And I was rarely able to observe, what was happening in a way that I could learn from it was, it was almost like it was thrown a wet blanket on my ability to learn about myself by judging, and it was the judging of myself, that was the wet blanket that that kind of covered everything. So as of, as I've learned, some of this nonviolent communication with myself, I've gotten better at just observing simply what's happening, like, what am I optimizing for? What choices Did I make? What did I see at that moment? What outcomes came from it? And what can I learn from it, and when you when you take an observation without judgment type approach like that, then learning is, is what you're optimizing for. And you're becoming the better version of yourself, because you're growing from the experience. And then I think once you get better at doing that with yourself, then you can offer that to other people. And you can observe without judgment for other people, and that creates safety, and then that optimizes learning for them as well. And that creates healthy relationships. That's a sustainable cycle. But a lot of times it comes from within you. And it's pretty hard. This is true of a lot of things in life, it's pretty hard to do something for someone else that you can't yet do for yourself. So
Mark 53:10
that's a Jordan Peters thing as well. You know, don't don't try to change the world until you get your your own house in order. You know, focus there.
53:17
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not easy to do, but but it's in your power. And, and, you know, I think, observation without judgment, it's probably the most compelling thing that I've learned in a long time. And I find that I can go back to that anchor point often. And a lot of times the answers are right there.
Mark 53:37
So I can I do that, I try to do that. Where I struggle is that there are just what's the word I'm looking for a non judgmental noun instances will go with where it just stings like, and I find this phenomena, the older I get, the more the rookie mistakes, is, I'll categorize them sting more, because I feel like, as I've gotten older, I should know more. And I think there's truth to that. I think I'm better at making rookie mistakes less often, which I think is comes into why they're so shocking. When they happen. Like I went from making a rookie mistake every day. I understand. I'm a beginner. If I'm making a rookie, simple, stupid mistake every quarter. Like it comes at me, surprisingly, and it's a little humiliating to myself, and so, you know, I feel stupid in my own eyes. Like how could you make such a stump simple blunder. And so I'm emotionally overwhelmed to the point like all I am just really beating myself up, as opposed to like, Well, you know, Mark, take a step back, you know, have some compassion for yourself. You're not supposed to be perfect, and everybody's doing these kinds of things. And it's like, you know, it's like, No, I'd rather just beat myself up a little more brutally for another couple of hours, days or whatever it is, based on the severity Do you encounter that?
54:53
I do. I do, but it's a it's a deeply ingrained pattern that crushes my spirit and is a giant setback. So, yes, that's in me. But, but you know, don't, it feels violent to say it, but I try to actively stamp that out, I try to I try to find that shadow voice inside me. And I say, Hey, I know you're in there, but but you're not going to dominate this moment, I'm not going to, I'm not going to beat myself up about this. And instead, the pattern interrupt for me is what need that I have at that moment. And what why did I make that choice? And a lot of times, there's, there's an answer that's in there, you know, you know, maybe it was a rookie mistake. But, um, but I did it because I was, I wanted to please, this other person, or I wanted to try to find a quick answer, instead of doing the hard work of truly understanding the system or the context, you know, like, when I look back at that, I can, I can often find connection points back to back to something, and then that becomes a positive learning moment for me, as opposed to beating myself up, like, see, you're falling into that same same pattern. So you're not learning the things that that you think you're learning, those just don't help you move forward. They're just, they're just self self tearing down type language, that that's, that's a, that's a pattern that that almost does nothing, you know, in some ways, I think, we're, we're sending out a signal that says, you know, I'm not getting something that I need, like, you might go home and, and tell your significant other, you know, my day was terrible, and this and that, and a lot of what you're doing is you're, you're, you're sending a signal of you need something that you're not that you're not getting. And, you know, I think that we're more likely to get what we need from others when we're giving the thing that we need to ourself. So, you know, a big part of that, for me is like, you know, try to stop tearing yourself down.
Mark 57:06
So that's a great pivot point into something that I've been curious about since we started this conversation. How does your wife fit into that? And the question that I was want to lead to, is, she has a complex life with her own dreams and passions, and paths? How do you the question I want to get to I'm going to try to bring it back to where we pivoted is how do they fit together? You've got big dreams, she's got big dreams? How do you make them overlap? How do they work together? How do you not step on each other's toes? How do you take and give? But starting with the conversation, you come home you've had a day? And you know, how maybe maybe the first question, how do you give yourself what you need? So when you talk to her, you're not asking her to give you something that you should have given yourself? Is that how you interpret how I should interpret what you said? Yeah, yeah, well,
58:02
questions, an awesome question. It's right at the crux of what's most important, I think that the thing I try to keep in mind is that is that what I value is, is feeling connected to her and her world, and how she feels. And so one pathway is to, is to listen and support her. And another is to share what's happening for me, and to ask for, for her to, to understand me. And so I just try to, again, keep those in balance. And so some nights, it's, it's, it's me sharing and, and trying to do so in a way that doesn't push her away. And, and on other nights, it's me listening and trying to be supportive, you know, the consultant and me sometimes wants to solve problems and, and jump jump, I've
Mark 58:55
got a tool for that. Let's sit down. That's right,
58:57
started in the morning. What time are you available at seven?
58:59
That's right. And that's a lot of sheets. Sometimes that's not what she needs. She just needs someone to try to understand what she's going through. So so you know, I think that, that there's there's balance, but I know that we're getting it right when when we feel connected to each other. And so as long as I stay anchored to that higher level context of connectedness, as opposed to a lower level thing of Wow, it would be really good for me to vent then then then there's sustainability there because said differently, you know, if I feel the need to vent, but she has a need to vent as well. It's, it's probably a healthy choice for me to make to be the listener that night, and then call someone else that I have this symbiotic relationship with and say, Hey, it could really help me if you let me let it fly for a little bit. And then that person becomes the listener. And I didn't need to be the speaker in that moment with my wife. So I think it's just trying Be aware of the balance and staying aligned to that higher purpose of, Hey, stay connected. And and that's a balance of speaking and listening.
Mark 1:00:09
So how does that manifest in when it's because I get the conversation piece of that. But time and energy outside of those touchpoints, weekends, evenings travel, those things tend to crash into each other, you've predicted probably have to travel periodically. Yes, yeah. And your wife has to travel. And you've got kids? And how often do you encounter the? How do we Rock Paper, Scissors the importance of the conflict, like, you know, without had, I assume you smile, like you understand the question of like, priority? And who's more important, and how do you differ? And how does that how does that played out?
1:00:48
That? Yeah, it's, it's delicate, I think, it's, it's really important to me that we are equal partners, and that there's not a presumption that she does something I don't do because because of her gender. So I, you know, I think there was a window of time when the kids were very small, and there was breastfeeding and stuff like that, where there is an imbalance in the roles we have as parents, but now that our kids are nine and 12, icss fully equal standing partners in in the management of the house, the raising of our kids and all this stuff. So, so from that standpoint, I, I try to I try to do my, my part from a, from a revenue generating standpoint, yeah. You know, I'm, I'm in a salary role, and I make a lot of money, I support the family, while Katie is in a non revenue generating stage of trying to build something really awesome that that takes a runway of time to do so. So, because of that, there are times where, you know, my need for travel, or my need to be present for something related to work ends up becoming a priority, or something or something that we need to work around, but, but I've, I've intentionally built flexibility into my world, knowing that I've got a entrepreneur, wife, and who, who has needs and so we, we've got a couple extra layers of help and, and in different ways that we try to flex and, and support each other, to try to avoid a, you know, a conflict that that's unresolvable, so
Mark 1:02:45
I think layers of help. It's, that's that's babysitters nanny family,
1:02:49
yeah, not a nanny, but yes, babysitters, you know, including my parents who do do crazy things like Dr. From South Carolina to help us out for a weekend and stuff like that. So, yeah, you know, it's just, I think, where there's where there's a will, there's a way, and, you know, where there's, there's love, there's sacrifice, and, you know, where we're all in it for the, for the same reasons. And, and so, you know, we try to try to ask for what we need, and try to support each other in in being there for each other. Wow. So, you know, no, no, easy answers there. But I think that the, but that the higher order is, is, is trying to be an equal partner, and trying to try and to optimize for both, as opposed to, you know, just what I see, I try to, I guess, see the larger context.
Mark 1:03:50
And so I had that thought recently, that really the best combination is understanding how to create synergy and overlap, where things things fit together well, as opposed to two separately, needy visions. Yeah, you know, you got to say, like, well, how can these things help each other out? But I at the same time, I think that's largely theoretical. I mean, the passions of two individual people don't necessarily converge, especially over time. Have you had any situations experiences where it just crashed and melted down? Like you're like this? You know, this is just bad and I couldn't we got to losers or a big argument or just crises in path?
1:04:29
Yeah, there have been and I I assume that life will serve up can continue continued menu of more of them to come. You know, I think the I think one of the hard parts is that is that the her entrepreneurial context is, is often at that lowest level of Maslow's Hierarchy like she's, she's fighting for the survival of the company and And then for me, what I see is how much she's learning, and how each of these setbacks, whether it's an investor telling her no or manufacturing company telling her there's a delay, or, you know, an employee, that's, that's, you know, not following through on something that they're that they've said they're going to do, or whatever, it's, um, I see her learning and growing and, and how that, in itself is this invaluable experience that she's getting. And then I'll see her allow herself to get pulled down into the judgment of, of, yeah, but I don't, I don't yet have the investors I need or I don't yet have the product that I need, or, or the, or the corporate culture that I need. And so yeah, that becomes this, this incongruence and, and so then I, I just, I feel like I've got a, I've got to be patient and say, you know, I am going to support her through this moment, because I want to stay connected to her. And, and let it let it happen. Because, you know, the fact is, again, coming back to, I didn't like to be told, and I didn't like to be lectured. Last thing I'm going to do is tell her, Hey, I've learned this thing. And if you just would learn it also it would things would be a lot better for you. But instead, just like, you know, I don't even know that I fully have learned it yet either. It's just a new light bulb that's come on for me. And, and I'm gonna see if I can again offer her a thread that if she chooses to pull, then I'm right there with her. And if she's not ready for it, then it's going to it's going to be there. Ready for her to pull when she's ready. Yeah.
Mark 1:06:48
Well, one light bulb that went off for me is that clearly I need to have Katie on the show. And so I that is you need to set that up for me, I'd be happy to I'm very much would love to have the bookends of this very, it's really kind of cool, because you have very, not quite polar but but almost polar lives living together. I mean, it's business, but it's a very different set of structure. I mean, she's in a chaos world, you're in a structure world, that they're close it,
1:07:17
I can see how it looks that way. I think we're I think we're really, I think we're really similar. So we've got real similar personalities and outlooks on life, we've got some similarities in the way we were raised. And, and some of the hang ups that we have, and in a lot of ways, you know, I mean, I, the decision to get married was an easy one for me, because she was clearly my best friend. And so as I looked at it, I was like, This is totally sustainable, because this gives me the opportunity to hang out with my best friend for the rest of my life. So. So there were real similar in that in that way, you're right, that the context of the of the world of the business world that we're in is, is is different, but I kind of find that, that I think of it almost like as economic waves. Some of the economic waves are a little different in our world, but but we're kind of doing the same things. And we're trying to achieve the same feeling with our partners and our employees and end of the world. And so at a micro level, they look different. But if you take a step back, it's just you know, at any given moment, you'll be different spots, but on average, you're kind of doing the same stuff. That's right. That's right. And, and it they're just waves and so I try to recognize the wave she's on and, and I see her trying to recognize the wave that that my business is on, and we support each other in that way. But you know, to, to respond to the, to the offer to bring her on. I think she'd love to do it. And she's got so much to say she's she's brilliant. And she's she's funny, and she's fun. And I think you'd love having her on.
Mark 1:08:57
Yeah, I believe that for sure.
1:09:01
I'm curious. This concept. I think I know the answer to this, but I didn't want to let this go. Because I one of the things that
Mark 1:09:12
is we're really talking about health. This whole the whole whole conversation has been about some form of health. And I think when we look at the people who make the biggest long term impacts historically as entrepreneurs and as leaders to interesting phenomena happened that I think one is we attribute all of their behavior to their success. And whatever that looks like, they were tough. They were mean they were they were never no one ever crossed this guy. If you looked him in the wrong, he would fire you immediately. And that's this, you equate that with their success, right and so people try to emulate that. And then there is the pathological side of that which people start to get it well the reason they were so driven is because they were abused by their whatever They grew up in this terrible neighborhood and they were always in. So their pathology from a distance starts to be ascribed as a good thing. And, and so, which I don't think is actually totally crazy, I think I think that people are driven by those things. From a macro level, like, you know, they were never satisfied. That's why they kept going, kept going, kept going, and they were burning the candle at both ends. And that's why they created this amazing company. That's why they did they led the revolution. That's why they did those things. In a micro level, were they happy? Like, we probably don't think so in many of those people's cases. You know, Steve Jobs is known to have denied the existence of his own daughter for a long time. That's, that's I don't know how you characterize that as a success success attribute, right? That's not part of the recipe I want. So what's going on in his mind what's what was going on in his world that drove him to be one of the greatest visionary entrepreneurs in history. So then the all that setup is, if you take that away, if you take the pathology away, if you become healthy, do you lose the potential impact to be the best impact on the world and in your world? And I don't even know if that's a really noble question to answer but it is something that I think I think about and other people wonder as well, like, you know, what, what are we after? Long Term legacy impact healthy in the moment, satisfaction, complacency in the in the moment? Like if I wake up, I go to sleep happy tonight, and I wake up in the morning, will I be like totally unmotivated? How do you see that issue?
1:11:36
Wow, that feels like an ocean. And yeah, yeah.
Mark 1:11:41
And so so I don't want you to feel compelled to try to answer that question. Like, I think the last podcast I ended with, like a question like, Okay, and now listeners go ponder, cuz I got nothing for you.
1:11:52
Yeah, well, I like the thought track. Because if you if you know, the extent to which you feel confident, in in that area, it could be pretty awesome. So, you know, I guess my thought is that is that Steve Jobs Did, did some pretty incredible work. He confidently chartered a path into some unknown areas that that he uniquely found. And that's pretty cool. My hypothesis is that, what allowed him to do that was, was something in balance, or something that that made itself imbalance, and I'm staying in balance, not, I in instead of I Am.
Mark 1:13:00
And I guess it's a good form of balance, you know,
1:13:02
and I don't know all the facts, but so maybe you can help me, but I'll make something up. It sounds plausible, you know, he, you know, his, I mean, he passed in at an age less than his life expectancy, I think, for the average male in his demographic. And so I guess my my presumption is that he may have operated in a non healthy way, or in a way that had a cost of, of subtracting something that that might not have needed to be subtracted. So then the way I hear your question is, could he still have achieved what he achieved if, if he if he lived or operated in a different way, and I think that part isn't knowable, but I want to be one of the ones that's trying to, to still achieve something that might be as impactful as what he did, while not exposing myself to suffer such a high cost. You know, I think when you look at it, what, what could he have done as a entrepreneur or as a leader or as a motivator? In, you know, the next 30 years of his life if he were to go to the average life expectancy? And and is that worth it for him to burn so brightly to produce what he did? Or? Or would we as a as a culture and as a as, as you humans? Would we have benefited from him being more healthy and, and, and lasting a little longer? So, you know, it's, I'm thinking from the top of my head, and I don't know that I have an answer, but but that's what that's what comes to mind. And, and, you know,
Mark 1:14:58
so the question is always It was it shows up in different ways for me, and one of them is that realization? Well, perception and belief that and because people have argued this point with me and and I still think I'm right, that when you look at artists and in particularly artists are very, very creative musicians and painters and and in entrepreneurs, actually, there's almost always some form of wound there. And, and and you can very almost always attribute the drive to that wound. And so it starts to become the question of do you need to be wounded? And do you need to have a disease, a disease of some kind to really be impactful, which then flips around to like, if you are, are a visionary of some kind, you're entrepreneurial in the way that you feel very compelled to make a big impact? is trying to heal that, contrary to your motives to make the big impact? Or is it just sort of like some self eating question of like, you know, the only reason you're trying to make an impact on the world is because you're wounded, you wouldn't care about that, and and what are you trying to? Do you live in unhappy life? That leaves a legacy for hundreds of years? Are you trying to live a happy life for your kids and whatever, and let somebody else worry about changing the world history? which becomes that becomes a very deep question like, what is it better to live a happy life for your family that no one ever hears of? Or is it better to burn yourself hot and change humanity and have everyone around you been miserable the entire time? Well, I
1:16:31
have a hypothesis, and that is that everybody's got some struggle, everybody's got some heartbreaking story or some, some challenge in their life. What I think is, my hypothesis is that we overplay the struggle of some, and connect it at, in a causality type way, right to the genius that they have. And, and, and I think that the, you know, the average Joe also likely has has a struggle, and they likely have have overcome it, it just, you know, their story isn't nearly as compelling because either they're not famous, or they haven't done whatever, but but they very well could have created something that's, that's equally as breathtaking. Just think that there's a bit of, if you'll pardon the phrase, almost like rubbernecker culture that, that says that we get so drawn to the famous people, and then we want to, and then we get drawn to, we want a simple answer for why they're so awesome, and why they're different from us. And at the end of the day, I don't think there is a simple answer.
Mark 1:17:54
In addition, I think, kind of what you're pointing to, is that maybe almost everybody has that wound or something similar, and it's only because they were so dang famous that their wound got that much attention.
1:18:06
That's That's exactly it. I think that i think there could be a brilliant podcast series of average people that can tell the same stories of addiction or abuse or poverty or, or lack of, of connectedness or compassion, or are all these things you can look, you can look all over. It's just that those stories are untold, because those people aren't in the public eye. You know, like, I think you you know, like, watch, watch the voice or America's Got Talent and you and you see what looked like pretty average people that happen to move into this like partial stardom place for a moment. And, and every one of them can pull up some difficult moment in their life, that that they tap into that says, Why this moment of having the chance to live their dream becomes so meaningful to them. And then it's one of the reasons why I believe in this hypothesis, that everybody's got a struggle. Sometimes it's visible, and sometimes it's not, but one of the ways we can be human is to recognize that everybody's everybody struggling with something right now and everybody is has some struggle in their past that that we shouldn't assume just because they're successful or, or famous, or seeming to have it all together, that that that they that they haven't endured, or they haven't, you know, persevered, man that that was that was the exact lightbulb for me, is
Mark 1:19:43
it the light Tommy went on for me and that was exactly I believe that I I say I've said it a million times that everybody's had an epic, epic war. They're fighting and they've got struggling and struggling the wounds and all that and it just that was absolutely the last light bulb moment that like those wounds, I still was over attributing, like their, their wounds and their bad behavior were as famous as they were, and so that it got more attention. And now it's crystal clear to me that they're exactly the same as everybody else. Like, that's not, that's not the defining moment at all. That's not the defining feature. Everybody's got that. Which is not to say that it's not hard and bad. And it's not difficult. It's more about understanding the compassion for your neighbor, who is silently sipping coffee next to you in the coffee shop, and they aren't, they are not wound free, they are not struggle free, they are doing the same things and, and we should not be more hard on ourselves, we should have more compassion for them. And if anybody is successful, we should celebrate that.
1:20:43
Yeah. People are inherently complex. I think there are, there are no simple people on like, platitudes. But I think that that might, it might be true. But we try often to rationalize and explain these very complex things. And then the relationship between people might be one of the most complex things in the world. And yet we we try to comprehend it with these simple things with these platitudes or whatever. And, and I think that, you know, the the Association of someone's you know, maniacal thing with their genius is this oversimplified thing that disambiguates the complexity of that person and their life and their relationships? So I think it becomes a bit of a fool's gold to think that there's so much causality between this idiosyncratic thing and their genius, when I think there's this much more complex context. And to truly understand someone's genius. I think it takes understanding someone's complex world. And this is why my hypothesis is that everybody's struggling with something and it's in it's Yes, it's related, but it probably it probably is, isn't as causal for the genius as, as we as we attribute it to be.
Mark 1:22:14
And that's incredible. Such a such a lightbulb moment for me, I'll be digesting this for for weeks, months and years, and it's been such a gift. And this is probably a greatest stop place to stop is any, anything you want to share anything you still burning it to kind of talk about at this moment? Well, I so go for it.
1:22:33
No, it's I don't think anything topically. But I'll say that. I love the I love the pattern of building on thoughts, meaning you offered something and an AI offered something in return. And then you you built on that, you know, it's almost like we had one topic. And an hour later, we're still talking. And I think what's what's awesome about that is that there's a very human element of that I tend to see healthiness in the cycles of can one thing lead to something else that's positive and see a virtuous cycle that unfolds from there. And I think this conversation, taking a step back and looking at it meta for a sec, was a good example of that, of two people truly listening to each other, not not working off a script, you know, you didn't come in, at least I don't think you did with with a set of topics. And so it's like, well, let me hit these five things. And that's what equals success in order that I have a set of things that that I felt like I needed to touch on. Instead, it was two people that were truly having a conversation. And, and, and one thing led to led to another. And I like that a lot because it's because it's healthy. It's a virtuous cycle of of one thing leading leading to another. And I think that more and more I seek in my life, those healthy patterns, because they're because they're repeatable, and they and they lead to positive, unintended consequences, that can be the rising tide that raises all boats. And, and so for me, it was a real joy to participate because you've given me the gift of of participating in exactly the thing that I value most.
Mark 1:24:25
Well, it's such a deep, deep compliment, because that's how I see it as well. It's how I feel it is that meaningful conversations are what's most rewarding to me. And that's what this ends up being a way of memorializing a meaningful conversation that's hopefully meaningful to 1000s of other people who will get the opportunity to participate, which they can participate, they can reach out like we're accessible, right? And, you know, several people know how to get a hold of you and me if they want to do that. But that's the intention to me, which is to have, I don't think there's enough opportunity in the world for people to see people People change their minds to learn to exchange ideas, what's what people are witnessing most of the time now long form, unedited podcast is a really blossoming format, which is not that it's the opportunity here these conversation, but I think the world is starved to hear what it's like for humans to interact and to grow. And so that's why this is passionate to me, which opens the door to a conversation, it's exactly the most scary thing you could potentially have. What are we about to talk about? I have no idea. And so that's what I said people's expectations up front, like what we're about to talk about is not what you were thinking, I promise, that's the one thing I've done pretty well guaranteed. And everybody generally is feels rewarded for that. But it's not comfortable at first for me, and for it, I do it all the time, I just have built the faith that like I've done it so many times in a row, like it's not failed yet. It's probably not gonna fail this time. But sex success is not guaranteed. But it's such a great comp, I really appreciate our time together. And that was, you know, thank you.
1:25:57
Well, I've very much enjoyed being on and, and I've enjoyed the conversation. So thank you for starting the podcast and, and being willing to, to allow it to be kind of unfiltered and to and to allow it to be real. I think there's a there's a lot of value in that. And, you know, my I tip my hat to you for for, you know, getting started that I think that first mover of of making something happen is is is you know what the world needs? It's everybody, I think to try to find that thing. And, and courageously give it a shot,
Mark 1:26:37
man. Awesome. I think it kind of ties back into the whole theme of of health. Thank you, man, how if somebody didn't want to connect with you, how would they find you?
1:26:45
Yeah, you can find me on on LinkedIn. I'm not that active on on Instagram and Twitter yet, but that's kind of a future desire of me as is to connect through some of those platforms more regularly. So you know, that that's, that's probably the best way and, you know, I certainly love hearing about the impact of messages like this, you know, or other things on on people's lives.
Mark 1:27:13
Also, and so we'll make sure there's availability or you know, on on LinkedIn, the link to that will be in the show notes. I'm looking forward to the next time we chat, my friend. This has been wonderful. It's been a real privilege. And that's it for today, and we'll see you next time. Sounds good. Thank you so much