Joe Alapat is the founder and CEO of one of the fastest-growing Houston-based automation platforms, Liongard, which seeks to address the growing challenge of managing modern IT at scale. Prior to this, he already had two decades of experience in the technology industry under the care of an IT-managed service provider he owned, operated, and sold. He has also been recognized for his work for two consecutive years, being awarded CRN’s Channel Chief in 2020 and 2021.
Ever had those moments where you’re in that flow state and operating in your sweet spot leading the business? Well, what if I tell you that you can replicate those moments more often? For today’s episode, I am joined by Liongard founder Joe Alapat who shares how you can get to that purposeful 10x power. We also touch on the topics of innovation and getting into the groove of creating value infinitely, getting rid of the scarcity mindset, the importance of paying attention, how to have more powerful meetings, valuing your alone time, and risk management.
5:15 Joe talks about the idea of 10x
11:34 Business is an infinite game.
20:00 With an innovation mindset, value can be created anywhere.
23:35 Joe shares more about his “vision vortex” moments
34:30 The cost of being busy and the power of clarity breaks
41:15 Know that it’s a journey.
53:50 Think about risk management and take calculated risks.
58:50 Joe’s passionate plea to entrepreneurs
“Be patient because it’s a journey. When you’re in that journey, be curious and learn. Put that ego aside.”
GET IN TOUCH:
MARK LEARY:
www.linkedin.com/in/markhleary
www.leary.cc
JOE ALAPAT:
https://www.liongard.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joealapat
Production credit:
Engineering / Post-Production: Jim McCarthy
Art / Design: Immanuel Ahiable
Wednesday, June 23, 2021
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
business, people, 10x, create, meeting, thinking, listening, game, visionary, innovation, infinite, write, asynchronous communication, journey, purpose, life, talked, running, future, book
SPEAKERS
Joe Alapat, VO, Mark
Mark 00:00
So we're rolling, cool. We are live. This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson, Leary and my name is Mark, and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do is I help you get control of your business. And part of how I do that. It's by letting you listen in on these conversations between me and someone else who has a passion for excellence in the entrepreneurial world. And today, I'm here with none other than my good friend, Joe allopath, who is a phenomenal visionary leader running a kick ass technology company one of the fastest and at one point, the fastest growing company in Houston. And I'm just here, excited to explore the concept of what it is to have a technology company a complex business. That stands for something, Joe, how are you, man?
Joe Alapat 00:47
I am doing great, Mr. Mark Henderson, Larry, I'm having fun. You have your middle name. And then I have to always address you with what's right.
Mark 00:57
Don't mess that up. Because I don't respond to people who don't address me with respect check done. People ask me a lot like what that's about. It's so funny, because they're like, Well, tell me about that. That your middle name? What is that? And I say it's my middle name. And they're like,
Joe Alapat 01:15
oh, opportunity to drop the mic on something big mad, come up with something better.
Mark 01:21
I know. The simple the simple reason that I just brought it into play, because if you want to find me, you type in Mark Anderson there you find me. Like, it's like, it's not very easy to find this super practical. And actually three letters Seo? Well, actually, there's some truth to that. And so who's the guy who the new rules of marketing PR. David meerman Scott. So I heard the story that he did it for that reason. And so he only there's only one David meerman Scott, and as a result was only one Mark Henderson maybe. So I guess that's a little disappointing. It's kind of a family friend name. That's where it came from. But people are constantly messing it up, it's becomes my last name, it becomes my first name in certain spots. It's my only name other spots anyway, but it's fun. Well, Joe, what's on your mind these days, man, I think it's probably more than just my middle name is on your mind.
Joe Alapat 02:06
Oh, this, there's a lot on my mind, just been in growth mode with my life and personal life as well as the business and, you know, feel like I'm on a rocket ship with Lion Guard. And, you know, really had time to take some perspective. I mean, I've been through a couple of Rocky points in my life. And you know, just some tough spots, even in the early days in line guard. And, and now I'm in this mode, where I'm like, you know what, life's too short. You got to have fun. And you got to make sure you're doing something meaningful. And it's really important. Those two things. And I say that to our team all the time. It's just it's too short. So you've got to have fun Monday morning is tough. How you can get out of bed? And how are you excited about getting to work and then at the same time, hey, Fridays are great to like, get onto the weekend and have some fun. Okay, so
Mark 02:55
let's, let's unpack that a little bit. So fun. You're in a technology business, for sure. And I find the technology businesses like to be smarter than fun. Although maybe I'm making that up. It's from the outside. It looks like you should be on top of the world. Your business is crushing it. It's growing. You know, when we started working together, you were about 13 employees and AI are working on 100 right now. what's what's tough right now, what's what's what's a tough Monday morning for you?
Joe Alapat 03:27
Tough Monday morning, what is the schedule is packed, right? Like literally eight to five. This is the life of the pandemic worker, right? This is nothing new to everybody back to back to backs, and we need a bio break. And we're running between the edges of meetings to do those things. So you get greedy, right? You get greedy with wanting to do so many things. And and you just keep stacking meetings up. And so that, you know, staring at my calendar Monday morning gets a little bit daunting. And I realized, you know what, I need to put some space for breathing and, and actual thinking. So those are some of the tough things right now because there's just a lot to get done. And I keep delegating and elevating and something comes to fill the spot. Like I thought I was supposed to get to this new level back to kindergarten again. And that's what I always joke. It's like I graduate and I'm back to kindergarten.
Mark 04:23
Well that's funny because I try to I think this is a this is a stoicism thing. There's a mark for it. The book I read I think is the subtle art of not giving a fuck I think it's the book and they talked about you don't you don't solve problems you hope I'm not missing Miss attributing this but you never solve problems the only upgrade them a little bit to a problem. You'd rather have a little more than that when you got rid of it. And so it sounds like that's happening in hyperspeed for you right now.
Joe Alapat 04:50
Yeah, and you know, going back to that term fun, you know, when I when I say fun, it's actually much more than a simple three letter word and that you know, behind that You know, something that I feel strongly about, and that's seeking your 10x. Right, that's a thing that everyone around me knows that I say I say that phrase 10x a lot, it's a very meaningful phrase, and there's a lot to unpack there. But it's about getting to that sweet spot, you know, finding that sweet spot for yourself, we're what you do, and the actions you take are just so natural, it's really not work, it's just so natural. And you're done with it, and you need to, you know, maybe go home for the work day. And, you know, and it's not like you really had a tough long workday just kind of went by and you were in the zone. And that's, you know, that's to me is it's finding your teknicks. And that makes things a lot easier when you're operating, you know, in your sweet spot, rather than straining yourself to do something. That is really not what you're really made to do, you know, we all have our own DNA and unique combination. And so, you know, some people think that, you know, being a 10x, or, or being somebody you know, unique that has some impact is something only a few people do. My take on it is everyone has their 10x it's just a state of discovery. And some people discover it, some people don't. And those that discover it achieve amazing outcomes. And that's, that's why it's just, it's just a game here now. So I'm like, how do I seek my own 10x? And this is my purpose. My own personal purpose is how do I seek my 10 acts? And how do I seek it in others? How do I get them in a position to explore that for themselves and ask questions, not push, but just ask open ended questions and get them thinking about the same topic.
Mark 06:41
So this is a great topic for a couple of reasons. I've said, I've done so many interviews, so many podcasts that have in some way connection back to purpose, and your sweet spot. And to the point where I start to feel a little guilty, like we've already covered this subject. But I've realized that this is something you have to nail in it. This is if you've if this is your fifth purpose episode you're listening to with it, keep listening, because you really got to nail this. And I think the way because when we started doing the work together, the idea of 10x was, it was like what the software was supposed to do. But we're now I'm hearing you describe it like, Yeah, and that's true. And that's important in the DNA of the company. But I'm pulling out of that, that no, everybody needs that. Like that's that's the how and that's my big takeaway from the moment I gotta drop the mic right now, sir. Okay, I got value out of this. But that's that's ominous speak to your purpose, cause or passion and your niche as a business. And think of your sweet spot is not just to put not a good place, it's your 10x place. And that should help you decide about letting go of all those good things, because that's the hard part. When people refuse to focus. It's because they can't let go of their darling. marginal value things I know, this week, I got a million marginal value things that I just love, and they get stuck. And they and they don't have the guts to pursue their 10x You're laughing? What does it What does that mean to you?
Joe Alapat 08:10
Oh, I'm just thinking through all the different things I've done in my prior business. And this one, we're, you know, letting go of a customer that just weighs you down. And you just know it's not right, but they're paying a lot of money. And, you know, and that feeling of exhilaration when you know what, you just do it and the whole team around you goes, thank you, thank you. And you're like, oh, maybe I should have done this sooner. And you know what, the money's not worth it. And I think that's where the thought processes like if you're in your tenex, financial freedom will come, all these other things will it will fall into place. And rather than fixating on the almighty dollar or fixating on whatever that other thing is, think about value and think about, like, how can I provide value? How can I leave something behind me, that is greater than what was there before where there was something there is, you know, where there's nothing, there's not something. And that's what I think about it. And that to me is so meaningful that when I'm when I'm gone, I hope that I leave the place a little bit better. And maybe there's some kind of lasting impact that I've made in a positive way. And that's, that's so meaningful. For me, it's meaningful for my team for the business, that I think that it does, you know, drive a higher purpose. And I hope that our, you know, our customers see that and our team members, you know, my team members, I hope they see that, that that's something that's really genuinely important to me, and it's important to my exec team, that there is a greater purpose and it isn't just about, you know, hitting the mark and being the fastest growing company and all those types of things which are great, those are great, you know, accolades and, you know, you kind of, you know, check the box, but you know, what, you move on, it's a journey. It's like, what's your next goal, right, and what are we trying to get done?
Mark 09:58
Well, I want to dive right into You and I talked numerous times about this concept of how you apply infinite game to your thinking. And I think it's super relevant. Because I know for myself, I, I get stuck, not wanting to let go, because I feel like, if I'm taking a step back, you know, I'm gonna let go of a client, that's a step backwards in revenue like, and that's, and I think you should give us a kind of a primer on how you view infinite versus finite game. But that's fine. I think in the scarcity, thinking, like, I've only got a few more minutes left on the clock, I can't give up the revenue, as opposed to, you know, it's just an ebb and flow. And we have to figure out what we need to do to play the game longer. So how do you how do you apply infinite game thinking to your business, especially actually, because you are given timelines and things in from your your investors, and you got dates and deadlines? And it seems like the invitation Yeah, you know, like taking a step back is got to always feel exceedingly uncomfortable.
Joe Alapat 10:56
Yeah. And it was interesting, because I have been listening to a lot of Simon Sinek YouTube videos lately, and most of the people I know, are just like, what is going on with what he doing. And you know, there's just, you know, Seth Godin, and all these others, that I'm just trying to absorb a lot of information. They're the kind of intellectual folks that have just started really great listeners, and just collecting information from the smartest people, and they happen to present it in very unique ways that are very palatable. And so you know, something that I always have felt like, in my heart is that we're at the tip of the iceberg of innovation, that there's this amazing amount of value to be created. And every time we think everything is done, it's not done right before the mobile phone came out. Who would have imagined, right, the mobile phone like, and five years later, everyone had, and the internet, right, the wheel, like any of these things are just, you know, ridiculous before you would have ever imagined. And if you think about human civilization, that's always the case. And if we know that, that's the pattern, you know, that there's always this massive amount of innovation, and value to be created ahead of us. And you're never at the finish line. And so when I listened to a recent video from Simon Sinek, I just happened on the concept of infinite games. I didn't know anything about it, apparently, from Game Theory. And, you know, James carss talked about it and others have spoken on it. So I'm just kind of inspired by because it puts a label to something that I've felt, and I couldn't really define it in a way that they say it is that most people perceive the world of business as a finite game where you have these define players, you know, and then they're known, and you have these defined rules, and that there's a finish line that there's there's a finite end to it. And the reality is, is that we all know, when when I say that, it's like, No, it doesn't. You know, that's not how business works. It's, it actually has a bunch of unknown players, there's known and unknown players, right? There's just they're everywhere. And there are no rules, there's absolutely no rules to business, you can do whatever you want. And guess what, there's no finish line, right? The business, if it continues to operate, the actual goal of the business is to stay in business, and to stay in the game, and to not exit it. And you know, some people would say, well, Joe, what about an exit? What if you sell the company? Well, when you choose to sell the company, you are choosing a path that says, Look, I'm I'm joining with another group, or what have you. And I'm going to put the baton down, because somebody else is playing the game in a more infinite manner, in some ways, right?
Mark 13:36
I'm choosing a different game. I'm like, I don't like this game. You know, I'm, I'm a basketball was fun. I want to switch to baseball, you know, it's totally features.
Joe Alapat 13:44
Yeah, you choose to step off the train. And that's why it's a journey. And but but while you're on the journey, if you can perceive, you know, let's say, just focus on building a business, if you can perceive that there's infinite value to be created just infinite value, then you start to think about it differently. You take away that scarcity mindset, that, oh, there's only five customers left in the world. You know, there's only so much total addressable market. No, you know, what, that's a lack of imagination. That's what it comes down to. That's a phrase I've been using a lot, is that our lack of imagination results in this thought process of scarcity. And if you have a strong sense of imagination, there's infinite value, and you perceive that, Oh, this is really an infinite game. And there's plenty of good videos that you could watch. silence that I can just search for infinite games. And you'll you'll see it explained. And the thought process is that typical businesses view competitors, and they think that Oh, I've got to beat my competitor, I've got a I've got to, you know, get better than them. And the reality is, is that there's no end to that process, right? You're just, you're just continuing a journey. And those that choose to play that way, end up creating an ally to say this, we create our own playing field, and you're just focused on your purpose, and great that somebody else's playing the game and they think you're a competitor. But I honestly think at Lion Guard, we just we don't have a natural competitor. Why? Because we're not fixated in an outward way to our competitors, we're just delivering value to those that work with us, you know, our partners, our customers, we call them partners. And if we can just continue to deliver more value to them, then guess what, we're just going to get better at that. And we're going to make them happier, and magic happens. And if we're fixated less on what the next person is doing, we're going to provide blue ocean value, right? Not red oceans, right, this book, Blue Ocean Strategy, you've heard me talk about it a lot. And so important, because it ties to this concept is that when you can find a blue ocean, it isn't bloody, right. And you've got, you know, there is no, the typical rules of an existing market space and having to beat the competition. And, you know, just having this, this trade off that you have to play in terms of finally getting to pricing pressure, you can just why don't we just find it uncontested space and make the competition irrelevant and create new value that the drives new demand? And you know what, at the end of the day, that's, that's great, right? And you see it happening, right? When Apple came to market with the iPhone, man, that that was unreal, right? the you know, the fact that they decided to push the app store the way they did. Amazing, right. And there's so many other examples of great companies. But that's, that's what I think about blue oceans, I think about the infinite game. And when we think about it that way, I always, you know, sometimes a team member will say, can show there's so and so is doing this thing, and it looks kind of like us like they're not playing our game. But it's fine, they can do their thing. And guess what, there's enough customers out there and there's enough value to be created, that we're going to we're going to continue to win our race, and we're going to win the game. And there's no finish to it, because it's just a sort of circular kind of thing. And you're just moving ahead on a football field, going yards and yards and yards. And that end zone is always a heavy, right?
Mark 17:05
As a theory developing I'm working on it helped me with this. So I am some fascination and passion for companies that are technology driven complex or whatever, they have a purpose behind them. And as I'm listening to you talk I'm I'm thinking about the role of technology in innovation in particular. And so are you familiar with Ray Kurzweil? Yep. So his futurist approach to technology is innovation and technology comes at it right at an exponential rate. And my theory, I think, my simple explanation for that is that the more you have, the more you can have in terms of innovation, the more inventions, the more possibilities, the more platforms, you've got the you have, it builds on itself, like as you create five new platforms, then you've got five people working with five new platforms is 25 different new innovations, and it kind of goes from there. And so I'm, in my mind, I'm bucketing companies I work with that have purpose into innovators, and consumers, I guess consumers is probably not the right word. But I'm thinking of people like reseller services, companies, people who they take what's out there, and they make maybe huge margins by implementing helping and scaling around a demand. But it's to some extent, it's linear, because they're working with stuff that other people have given them, they got to learn, train and implement. And it can be super good. I mean, I'm not gonna take anything away from it, because it can be super profitable. But there's this other bucket, which is the innovators who have access to that exponential change, stream of platforms and technologies and ideas. And you're seem to really be in that bucket. You're like, Hey, we're doing something today, but I'm just consuming chaos and creation into income and ready to convert it to any utility that we need. Does that make you think that's part of what fuels you to have access to that infinite source of innovation?
Joe Alapat 19:00
Yeah, it's funny, when you were saying that it made me think about our situation. And I'll present an example too. So we use AWS pretty heavily, right. And we use cloud infrastructure heavily. And we, you know, use Microsoft 365. There's all kinds of things we use. But when we think about building our business, to AWS, we're consumer. Right? We're just we're consuming AWS. But then when we're providing our value to our customers, it's innovation. And so when I think about this, this is a problem I've seen in the industry is everybody talks about supply chains, and they look backwards, right? And they're looking back at Okay, how and it's like a like a passive way of thinking like, Oh, I'm a supplier I supply things. Yeah, people and I always love to turn it everything negative into the optimistic positive route, which is, let's not talk about supply chains. Let's talk about value chains. So what's a value? Chain, what value are you providing forward to the next person? So how are you innovating to provide value, so that reseller of let's say, I don't know, Microsoft 365, there are ways to create value on top of my Microsoft 365, just so much value that can be provided. It's just a lack of imagination that, you know, that gets you there, well, maybe we could come up with a better security offering. Or maybe we can build more collaboration that builds on top of Microsoft Edge 55. And it goes to the next person, and then the next person, and it keeps going. And if we think of it, if this kind of infinite nature of value can be created, it kind of goes back to this this moment I had on a Saturday morning. It's so funny, I was on my iPhone, and I pulled up Spotify. And then and then I was just like, Oh, wait, I actually want to hear this on my Sonos speaker. For those that don't know, Sonos, they make speakers and allow you to stream music. I went to the Sonos app, and I hit play. And when I hit play, it was just like, I entered the matrix. It was so weird. I had this like, this moment of clarity, or I'm like, wait, I just hit play on the Sonos app that's interacting with this piece of hardware that they sold me. But what I'm actually doing is I'm streaming music via Spotify. And that music actually came from Spotify, which maybe is running on either Azure or AWS or Google GCP. I don't know which one. And then on top of that, those are running on hardware and maybe VMware or some hypervisor. And you know, it just keeps going. And it's so weird when you think about that, and you go, Well, when AWS built their business model, did they ever think someone would stream video or audio? And they probably did. They were just creating compute and storage. And then when, you know, Spotify said they were going to stream music. Did they ever think that somebody would create hardware that would then allow you to borrow that music, and then run it through there, and then send it to a speaker locally? It's just, there's just all these, guess what, I have a Spotify app and a Sonos app on my iPhone. Whoa, that's kind of interesting. But then the two different two very different things. And so when you think about that, it's, we're in the world of user experience. And what we're trying to do is drive higher levels of user experience for humans to really get to insight, right? That's the way I kind of think about it. And when you think about it that way, it's like, oh, okay, if it's user experience, and everything is about innovating to get to that insight, then you start to think, well, there's just all kinds of things we could do, we can make better trash cans, for God's sake. All kinds of free to drive innovation. So that's, that's a little stream of consciousness.
Mark 22:49
So how does that apply to thinking springs back to day in day out? Because I think as a visionary leader, we can and I found this bucket, we start drifting into the future, how amazing this is going to be all the potential. How, how does this manifest on a Monday morning? Okay, you got to work, you got to do stuff. How do you how do you manage your energy in the practice and the practical?
Joe Alapat 23:15
So So I have a team member, Dylan, early stage, teammate at the company. And he immediately labeled my visionary moments where I just turned into this Tasmanian devil, and I'm just like, spinning, right? I walk into a room and I just create chaos.
Mark 23:33
Yeah. And
Joe Alapat 23:34
he called it the vision vortex. And it's just this is hilarious. Like, I'm like, Oh, that's what it is. It's a vision words, text. And it's, it's something funny that to think about is that when you you know, like Ray Kurzweil right, or any of these folks who like to live in the future, and I, you know, I do like to live in the future, I'd like to think about where we're headed. The problem is walking your back, walking your way back to the current quarter, or the current month or the present day. And that is my biggest fault is that I try to connect the dots too quickly. And I'm, like, just surging ahead. And I'm a bull in a china shop, right? I just got all this just ideas just flowing left and right. And it's like verbal diarrhea. And I have to, I have to slow down. And I have to figure out how to, you know, say the right thing at the right moment. And sometimes it's, you know, it's what you don't say, that's really meaningful, because what happens is you when you flood people with ideas, nothing really good comes out of it. You have to navigate the path and it's doing the dance. So how do you get like to that future vision that's five years or 10 years in the future, and then dance your way to that in the in the most buttery. I use the word buttery a lot. It's like smooth like the buttery way that it just segues so nicely. Like, wow, that was a great journey, right? This This wasn't this big mouth. And we weren't trying to just get to the top of the mountain, we were able to sightsee and take breaks, and you know, take a breather, and then all along the way we're creating value, that's where I'm at right now is, is that that's something I'm working on, like, you know, making that more palatable, and knowing when to slow down and really focus on the present, or the near future, or the this year before I keep living in the five years or the 10 years out. And that's a challenge. It's a real big challenge for me.
Mark 25:31
So a lot of things in there that I relate to one is not the least of which is the visionary tendency to just manage time or not managed, address time poorly. Like the time dimension is a is a is an obstacle for visionary like, I can already see it, what are we waiting for, like, there's no reason, there should be any delay here, just paint this listen better, everybody. And we can do this instantaneously. And that's not what happens at all the rest of the room is like, this is gonna take iteration and time and socialization and mistakes, and no, it just takes time. And visionaries are super frustrated. Like we know, the faster we know, the better it is. And but that I think that also pairs up with the idea of the infinite game, and because when I think of when you and I talked about it, it's it's almost it's almost like a Zen like approach. It's, it's, it's a presence. It's like being in mindfulness in business. I think I need to slow that down and unpack that. Because I think you know what, when you meditate, and we're trying to not wish for a better future, we're not trying to pined for either past better days, live in past regrets, or wish we would be in the future, when things were better and suffering, the moment the mindfulness of meditation is to say, you know, you're here. Now, this app now is the only reality you actually have. And when you take stock of it, it's usually pretty amazing. Because you're let go of the past, and you are not concerned with the future that hasn't happened bad or good, you're concerned with, with what's actually you're experiencing. And so I think the infinite game is almost the business equivalent of that. It's saying, like, the future is whatever, make now the best. Now it can be and play the game with your ethos your rules, and make make now the very best thing and there's no way to compare because no one's playing your actual your actual individual game, you've made the rules for your game. And so when you when you sit down on like a level 10 or at a board meeting, how do you maintain that business presence? Like, Hey, everybody, today is our only day, and we're playing infinite game? Or do you try that and tell me tell me how that goes.
Joe Alapat 27:48
Now, most people will say I'm fairly charismatic in meetings. And once I'm having a bad day, but for most days, because like, it's not, it's not easy, and it's, it's okay to have a bad day, I just, I just want to say that it is okay. Because we're all humans. But when you're when you're at, you're in your element, you know, for me, it's just just literally climbing through the zoom window. And, you know, I just want to be present. And it's, it's a level of self awareness, and an awareness of what's going on around you. That will really is exciting, you know, seeing the people seeing a board members reaction, either negative or positive. And just collecting that data and just saying, Okay, well, what's the why behind that? Why? Why did why was this situation, you know, a little bit, you know, there was some friction here. And I didn't expect it, or, you know, a while they were a lot more excited about that than I was I don't understand that, like, what's there. And it goes back to a term a lot of people talk about is curiosity. And it's like, when you lose your curiosity, it's like, it's, it's just when you've given up, right, it's, it's so that's the one thing I would tell folks is, you know, be willing to listen and learn, be curious. ask why, you know, and ask why in a gentle way. Because sometimes, when you say why it's very calm, it's feels confrontational to other people. Because no one asks why, you know, you say, well, we need to be successful in business. Well, why Joe? Why do we need to be successful? It's like, Well, of course that we of course you have to be, but then when you get into the whys, you get into some interesting things. And so for me, being present in the meeting has to do with being self aware first, and it is a journey. And I've realized how poorly I've handled myself over the past night. And I recognize that 10 years from now, I'm gonna look back now and I'm gonna say, Oh my god, I was such a kindergartner. And that's something that I there's a book reference here I have to make and those that know me know that. My favorite single book is Dune. And the movies coming out this year. Thank God. And you know, the character, Paula tradies, kind of exemplifies that you go through this journey. In the book, of having a sense of self awareness of everything around him of his own actions, and there's some other themes around, you know, maybe not relying on heroes too much, and all kinds of other things. But that self awareness, I really learned that in my early 20s, after reading that book saying, wait, maybe I should pay attention more to what's going on around me and stop thinking about myself so much, right? And start thinking about what was the impact other people around me and God, it's taken me 25 years to get to this point. And it's just, it's been so long, and it's, I just look back and go, why did it take so long? But I don't know. Why did it take me this long to be as self aware as I have now, and then 10 years from now, I'm gonna say the same thing. But you know, it's you got to be patient, you got to be patient trust the process.
Mark 30:51
You said a lot there. And I want to address that the last point is important as we elevate ourselves, and I think this is a Dan Solomon concept with Strategic Coach. And as you ascend the ladder of your self actualization, you can see further into the future. And the past and looking into the past can kind of be that humbling, like, Whoa, like, Look, all the last opportunity. Why didn't Why did I struggle with that a lot? Like oh, man, took all the last opportunity. Like, why did it take me so long learns to simple lesson. And so that's, that's a risky run,
Joe Alapat 31:23
you know, do the opposite of that, because you don't have to be the eternal optimist. I go back to critical points in junctures where I had a major success. And I go back to why did that happen. And it's so funny. It's these little things, you know, somebody in your life, made a recommendation, and did something that then resulted in this magnificent thing that happened to me. And you know, what I'm doing now, I'm actually calling those people up. And I'm actually calling I'm recalling that story that I'm going to say, there's a there's a, you know, fellow, my life, Paul Brown, he's one of my, you know, advisors, longtime advisors, he's done some unique things that I didn't even know he did, to open some doors. For me, that helped me in my previous business. And I just randomly sent him a text message the other day, and I said, You know what, I just want to thank you for the mobile boom. And I went through the level of detail to say exactly what it was. And it's just awesome. And I still, you know, just keep talking to him, I think I've really started to try to be more grateful for all of those things that have happened in the past, and go back and specifically call those things out. And it's amazing, because then it makes you appreciate the little things that people do like an introduction to somebody, right? It's, I just try to thank them immediately and go, you know what, thank you for that. You didn't have to do that. But I can start to see how this could probably be very valuable for us, you know, or for me or for my business. And that sense of gratefulness. It's humbling. And it's magical, because it creates a relationship with that person where they're like, wow, that was kind of cool. And you know, what, they, they might even do it some more, because they sense the level of gratefulness that I do have genuinely and authentically for for that. So I love to go back and think about those things in my life. How powerful is that for you? I just, I it's like, it's like having this big library of things. You're like, Hmm, I remember that. Like, well, what caused that I follow the chain back. Yeah, I'm like, wow, that was because this person sent this email. And it was just some random thing they did. But then it set off this chain of events that this happened. And then boom, you know, and I was finally able to sell my previous business to another buyer. And it's like, oh, my god, that was followed trail. Yeah, it's like going through like a detective hunt. Because you don't humans, we don't remember all these details. So I even thumb through all the emails, and I go all the way back and go, who came up with that idea at Lion Guard, I sometimes go back and I look at the history in our emails and our slack and Confluence. And I, I find the moment that I'm just like, wow, that's interesting.
Mark 33:59
So one of the patterns here from this whole conversation has been about unique ability and Dan Sullivan's term in this in the delegate and elevate us terminology, it's the stuff you love to do and the stuff you're great at your top left quadrant, the stuff that adds the highest value puts you in the flow state the most often. And one of the things that you and I talked about lately about is the power of the clarity break. And speak to a little bit to the cost of being busy. As a visionary leader.
Joe Alapat 34:29
I mean, the cost of being busy is that you don't get to be in your teknicks. Right, you just get you know, the term busy to me means it's, it's not high value, right. And that's not necessarily dictated by back to back meetings like you could have back to back meetings, and it not be busy. Why because those back to back meetings about things that matter most to you that are aligned to your sweet spot. And that's great then that you don't that the end of the day. Don't feel exhausted, it's so weird. Sometimes I have days that are stacked, and I am just exhausted. And there's other days that I'm stacked. And I'm not. And I've started to realize, Oh, well, that's because those are the activities that I should have been doing. And most of those meetings were about my 10x, and about what value I needed to provide for the business. And when I was doing something, or being involved with something that maybe I shouldn't have been part of, that somebody else was better fitted to do it. That's when you feel that kind of strain. And so busy isn't always just because you have, you know, it's not just time, it's like, what are you doing with the time? Right, and the thing that's most underappreciated is that concept of the clarity break, which is, you do need time to think on your own, with just your brain. And, you know, I am an extrovert, you know, I love, you know, the concept of just interaction, and I've valued so I have not valued alone time enough in my life. And my wife is the other way, she values her alone time. And she's really taught me a lot about why that's important, just through the way that, you know, she's done things and I've tried it, and she's encouraged me in ways it's okay, yada, yada, just like you don't need to go out all the time. You don't need to go hang out with, you know, everybody, like, Can you just, like slow it down a little bit. And I know, you've encouraged me to take clarity breaks. And, man, it's been powerful. It's been powerful to sit, you know, one or two hours, and just with a pen and a book, or a pen and paper, and just think about things and just relax your brain and get into a meditative state. It's amazing the leaps that you can make and thought process by doing that it's funny, I, I was doing clarity breaks in the early days with lane guard, I used to go to Galveston, this is weird. I, you know, luckily, my wife was supportive. I told her look, I need to go to Galveston for three days, and sit by the beach, and just meditate on what I'm going to do with line guard. And those were clarity breaks, those were extended clarity breaks, and they really helped me make these leaps and thought process that very few people take in their life. Like literally alone time at the beach. This sounds freaky, right? Like, what's wrong with that guy? But you know what? It's amazing. If you did that you had the sea breeze and the waves going I'm just telling you, it's like the most healthy thing you can do. You know, some people go to the I joke about this. My wife and kids have asked him Okay, is it the ocean? The lake, the forest or the mountains? Which one is it? You can only have one? We're like raking it. An ocean guy. I'm an ocean guy. I don't know. What are you? Oh, should mountains? mountains. Okay, see it's definitely different.
Mark 37:46
The ocean it can really it can really do it. But but the mountains is exceedingly reliable. Yeah. Okay, reliable. Okay. Yeah, I've been very, very profoundly reset by time at the beach. And other times, I'm like, it's just smelly. And so, but that something especially cool cool in the mountain in the mountains. And it's cool. That the air, the temperature, the the nature of the trees, the green, the dirt. Yeah, all that stuff is very grounding and renewing for me.
Joe Alapat 38:17
No, I've been to the Smoky Mountains, in Tennessee, and it is beautiful. It's amazing. It was like one of the best trips we've taken. So I can totally relate I, I just find that there's something rhythmic about waves and a sea breeze, that it It causes the brain to get into a resting state. I don't know there's something about it. I don't know how to explain it. But I feel like if someone did research on it, they probably realize it Yeah, there is something about the rhythmic nature of waves, and what it does to calm humans. So that's, that's what's most compelling to me, the sea breeze and the sound of the waves.
Mark 38:52
So I'm observing my teams that I work with and myself, I'm seeing three ingredients really come together in what the best visionary leadership needs to have. And first, the first one is obviously somewhat obvious is the flow state work that you know, you say back to back, and at the end of the day in your in your high energy, that's flow state work. That's your unique ability. But there's also this self discovery and self awareness. And that's the part that I really push people on. Because what we've learned about human beings is that we're mostly habits, right? And so that's, and if you don't believe me, just type in habit. There's a whole half a dozen authors out there who will give you the data. It's all data driven between Charles duhigg and James clear and BJ Fogg, the guide to data were mostly habits. And so if you're fine with your habits, and you're getting what you want from your life, you don't need to observe. But if if there's anything more you want out of your life, you're going to have to stop and look at yourself and observe and discover which parts of you need tweaking to adjust your direction in life and for visionary leaders who are kind of you know, nose up As you can handle it, it's a constant state of observation of what's working, what's not what worked before, it doesn't work anymore. What do I have to change, you have to really be hands on. And that comes from that white space of observation, not back to that calendar of following the instructions. But then you also talked about this idea of catalysts. So I think that that's, that's a big factor, understanding where you put yourself, is it asleep thing? Is it a location thing, it is a music thing is that the mountains is really changing the ritual to do that work at the best. And I think you can apply that both to the flow state, as well as to that observation discovery state, how can you get the most of it? And I think it's, it sounds so frivolous to early stage leaders to like, I got to pick the ocean. You know, what's your advice to people right now, when you're saying those startup people working into the next level, they're hiring people, maybe their series A Series B, they got an actual group of employees, and they're like, I don't have time to take care of myself? What do you tell them those people right now.
Joe Alapat 41:03
It's a journey. It's a journey. And going back to the original statement, which is, you got to have fun on that journey. And you got to do something meaningful. And if it's an infinite game that you're looking to play, then you just need to know that this is where you're at right now is just just one step in the journey, and there's going to be a next step. And if you're patient with it, and give yourself enough time to be curious, to listen, to learn, and to have that state of discovery, and then do that adaptation, you know, then start adapting and behaviors. And don't try to Don't try to shoot for the moon in one instant. It takes time. It takes time. And, and it's okay. Right. And it's okay to stumble. By the way. You know, I love it. I love it when I run into a tough situation. What I what I joke with my kids and my wife is it, you know, look, if I run into a really tough situation, I think, okay, five or 10 years from now I'm gonna look back, and I'm gonna have a great story to tell about this. And that's how I call myself down when I'm in a really tough situation with business. I've been in situations where in my previous business where me and my business partner had him move a ton of money out of savings back into the the business account, because we couldn't make payroll, right? No one knew it at the time that you know, we were about to miss payroll. And that, you know, my business partner, Dave, and myself had to move a bunch of money in and pray to God that our customers want to write the check soon enough to get us paid. And when you when you get into those situations, when you stay in that state of calm, then you're able to realize that it is a journey, right, I'm going to look back on this thing. And although it might seem chaotic, you know, in the day, if you can create space for that learning, then you're going to know that you're taking steps forward, and the more clarity breaks you can take, those are the leaps that you're going to be able to make for yourself and for the business. And if you're the CEO, or a leader, it is something you should take seriously because your team's your company. So many people are hoping and relying on you to make those leaps, right. And they're, they want you to make those leaps. And they're like, Look, I let me take that off your let me take that off your plate. Because it's important to me that you make those leaps so I can make my leaps. And can you get out of my business? Like don't dig around in my business, I can take care of this. Because this is where I'm gonna make my leaps because I'm in my teknicks. And I'm going to take care of x so you can do the why. And that's where I don't think about the organization as a hierarchy. We're around a round table. That's the way I'm starting to really think about the business is that it is around table like, you know, let's go back to the Knights of the Round Table. And the more you can be the last to speak, which is something Simon Sinek talks about which oh my god is so hard for me. chatterbox is so hard and most people say Joe, you suck at that, and I'll accept it. And I'm trying to learn so hard to be the last to speak and sit around the table. It's amazing how much we can learn from everybody around us and everybody on my team. And that's that's the gold leader, find the right talent, right people sharper than me, and then look forward to the vision for the business and just direct the path. Don't you don't need to say how it's done. Just maybe speak more to the why. And we're just kind of pointing in a direction and let the team do their thing because they're gonna they're gonna take you there.
Mark 44:34
So the listening concept, I've heard it a million times I've preached it a million times the best the best leadership comes from the best listening. It's that simple. I do think it's fair to point out though, that the more you listen, I think there's a habit that goes with it. But really, it gets harder to listen without talking because you're like, oh, I've been listening so much. I have to share with you all the stuff I've heard and it's like I'm I'm burst It's the seems with all this stuff I've learned and you want to know you want to know I want to I want to share it with you. So it I think you have to expect that as you do more listening. It actually gets harder. It's harder to not shut up because or to to shut up because you feel like you got all the answers because you've been trying to find the answer.
Joe Alapat 45:18
Yeah, no, it's really hard. And, you know, something that I've asked our team to do is beyond the age of the pandemic, now, we've all had to work remotely. And I think one of the greatest discoveries is asynchronous communication. Not that it wasn't there before, because we had email, right, and then slack came along. So what do I mean by asynchronous communication? You send a message, the response doesn't have to be there right now. Like, for example, on a phone call, it's a conversation. It's happening synchronously. Email, it's asynchronous. So slack. And so when we think about Confluence are places where you can do meeting notes, right, any place, you know, SharePoint, whatever, pick your poison, and the any kind of online collaboration, digital online collaboration
Mark 46:02
tool,
Joe Alapat 46:04
yeah, anything, right? It could be a piece of paper. But just before you meet, what if everyone had their chance to just lay out their thoughts in writing? Right, so everyone gets to write collaborate ahead, and you walk into the meeting where everyone's already read everyone's thoughts on the topic. Imagine how powerful the meeting could be. And that's where I'm starting to see with with our with our team meetings, where how do we invert it, rather than thinking of it as the meeting is the place where the thoughts begin? Know, the meeting is where the decisions get made. The thought is actually written down ahead of time Jeff Bezos talks about this, right? He's he's talked about some of his, the approaches taken, which are kind of unique here, you got to write like this, I don't know, seven or 10 page document that everyone has to read before the meeting ensues. And it's interesting to think of it that way. I don't think I don't think of it that extreme. It's just get your thoughts out. And what I find is that there's a lot of folks, especially folks that are more introverted, share these amazing lightbulb moments in that written space, or they've had enough time to think that they then share in the meeting, and you're like, oh, my god, that was unreal. And we just never gave them the space to participate. Because all the extroverts are sucking up all the oxygen like me, right? Now, we're just sucking up all the oxygen and filling it. And by turning it around, we're actually giving everyone the opportunity to participate. And it's it is, it's unreal, what what can happen.
Mark 47:35
That's really interesting, cuz I'm just I'm just hearing about the concept of asynchronous and it's, it's frustrating for me, because I, I like to dive in and go, and the idea of the discipline that goes with to be really prepared for meeting, you know, I've experienced the power. But when things get busy, I start to go back to my default behavior, which is just showing with the meeting with T minus 11 seconds, and we're talking about, and it's, it's I, it's not as effective. And so this idea of asynchronous communication, is you have to create the space, you have to create the discipline, if you're not caught up, you're not going to do that work. Have you? Have you had that challenge? Alright, guys do take take notes and be prepared for this meeting and show up and half the people just couldn't find the time.
Joe Alapat 48:18
Oh, we're just we're just at the cusp of trying to like I kind of come to this conclusion in the recent past. And so we're in the early days right now. Neither team is is hearing me talk about asynchronous communication a lot more. And I'm, you know, saying hey, can we get the meeting notes page published early? And let's get our thoughts on the table first. And I'm already seeing the benefits of it. Because it's, it's just amazing. Like, the thoughts are there, go into the meeting, we're digging into some, you know, elf speak idsc. Work straight into the the heavy stuff very quickly, versus trying to set the situation up. Well, what why are we meeting? And what's the purpose? And well, you know, it's like, well, could have been written down and scan within five minutes beforehand. Yeah. And everyone comes prepared.
Mark 49:03
I think the thought the thought process that goes with writing it down is helpful, because even even I like the idea of the preparation. But even in the sessions, when I have a large team, and I know we're gonna have a bit of a time crunch. I've started saying, okay, when in your update, write it down. And when it comes to you read what you wrote. And just that accountability changes how people do it. Because before they write, they write three key words down, and they're all right, you know, innovation, and they go on for 10 minutes, and it like, Oh, we can't do that. So I said, you have to read what you wrote, that makes people start to go, Well, what is it that I'm trying to say? And it's a total transformation of time, they get to the point and we can get done on time. And so just that I exercise of making you process it down to a few statements, even if it's even if they write a lot, like if they write a page of notes, that's way faster than what they were going to do. If they were just gonna wing it until they felt like They made their point.
Joe Alapat 50:01
Yeah, nothing. I think the some people will express their thought in writing, some people express a thought in speech. You know, if we can all train ourselves to do a little bit of both, right? I think we can, we can always get to these lightbulb moments a little bit faster. Not that it has to be fast, but kind of impatient, I want to bring the future to me. I just, I know I'm living, I believe in a finite life, right. And I just like, I want to see the future. And I just joke that, then because I live a finite life, I need the future come to come to me. That's why I want to innovate and encourage more people to innovate, because I am not going to be here to see that thing for 100 years from now. So I want to, I want to see it. And I don't want to waste time. And it creates a sense of impatience on my part, where I've got to calm down sometimes and just, you know, like, Hey, you know, I see a founder doing something, I'm like, Oh, my God, it's such an amazing idea. Please don't drop it. Please go there don't, you know, I get that it's safe to be in that full time gig. And, you know, but this idea is worth it's worth giving it oxygen, because there's something huge here.
Mark 51:08
Well, so I think it's such a great example, thinking about your vision of a world that has 10x innovation and all the things you can imagine. But you have a way of describing the moment. 10x now, what can I be what's my what's my 10x in the moment, and you can live it and you have, you've got it in language. And so you have something to tether, if you don't have a way to describe it, you're going to feel lost a lot. And so if you're listening to this, and you're thinking, I have a I can't get myself out of the future, every time I bring myself into the present, I'm frustrated and angry with how broken things are, that that's your cue that you're going to have to figure out your formula, What's your purpose, cause or passion? What's your niche, what's what is your infinite game formula, and start living that moment to moment and bring it to the present, otherwise, you'll never feel fulfilled? You know what one thing we add the time has flown by absolutely so fast for me. And so I'm going to try to get us to wrap up is as best we can. But this concept of the payroll thing, it's a nerve for me, because I how many entrepreneurs I've heard with a story about not making payroll and the credit card and you know, second third mortgage on the house. And I think that it's a it's a misleading attribute of entrepreneurship. It's not a good thing, that people put themselves into that risk. It's a good that people have the risk tolerance to do that. But it's not actually good. Because it only It only matters if you can get that solved. If you got yourself into the hole, you got to get yourself out. And if there's anything this podcast theme is about, it's the engineering, the thinking, the importance of the solutions, the being the solution factory, not the problem creating factory and I think a visionary leader can be a problem creating factory left untethered, without purpose without focus without integrators without people can execute. And, and, and without self awareness. And because it's there's a lot of power that a visionary can bring to the organization with ideas and risk tolerance. And like any, any powerful source can be used for good and for evil. So don't get excited about it. I risked my family's fortune in savings in my company and cashed out my kids college savings. That's not the the the the trophy, the trophy is. And I've got a an idea of a factory of solutions. And we have a purpose. And we're people who are enrolled in the vision, and I've got an army of followers who believe in what we're doing. And I've successfully been able to communicate that.
Joe Alapat 53:47
Yeah, I think the key thing there is, instead of thinking about risk tolerance, which a lot of entrepreneurs are willing to take the risks, think about risk management, and you take calculated risks, right? And that's where that's where you have to think about it's like, you have to think about the risk to the business or yourself and always follow the path and go, Okay, what is the most likely thing that could create chaos here that could create concern, and have that kind of prioritized list in your head and go, Whoa, what's my backup to the backup to the backup plan for that? Right? They should be like at least more than two, three levels of backups, like such as running out of cash. Like, what's the backup, okay, I have some savings. Okay, great. What happens when you drain your savings? Okay, well, I have this loan. Okay, what about that and you just keep thinking through it. And then if you can plan for it, then you created enough backup plans because unfortunately, you will stumble, there will be things that are unexpected, but the pandemic happened no one predicted that. Right? And, you know what, no one you know, anyone who said that they predicted i think that i think they're crazy, but but if you got lucky, right to be on the right side of that, great, but those that were on the wrong side of that if you We're running a restaurant in the midst of this thing. And you managed to make your way through this thing. I just have to pat you on the back. Because you know what you did really something special, you know, you converted it to a drive thru business, you turned it into a delivery business that maybe it wasn't. And I've seen some of these business owners do that. And I just, I'm marvel at restaurant owners, because it's such a tough business, right to run. And I just like the ones that have survived. I'm just like, Man, that's just kudos. It's I you know, I wonder whether I would have made it running a restaurant to COVID.
Mark 55:34
For sure, man. So we've covered a ton of ground. I agree. 100% on that. Is there anything we've missed in this? Obviously, probably 10 other episodes we could do. But anything we need to kind of round this out on? No, I
Joe Alapat 55:49
think we I think we've covered a lot of ground here. This is what a lot of gambling and free forming. Hopefully it makes sense to listen.
Mark 55:56
Well, I realized it was something I wanted. So you mentioned that risk assessment essentially risk management, a lot of visionaries, I think are programmed for the for the risk tolerance. But the data shows though, that really successful entrepreneurs do manage risk. And my experiences, you know, Whitman's experience and Mark winters experience. And everybody in my world pretty much who teaches the system that I work with is that you have to have that one way or the other. And if the if the leader, a singer, singer, leader of the organization has both great but most of the time, they don't, most of the time, it's best packaged in two leaders. And you've got the that sort of visionary for the future. And you've got the integrator polarity, which is like playing defense and one of the best examples, you can look it up and go to YouTube, you can look for Walt Disney and Roy Disney. And there's a when they were opening up Disney World, Walt is talking about Yeah, you know, my brother, you know, he's always pushed back on me, he's always he's looked after the business and the finances and all that and, you know, I'll get to bring him ideas and he just won't, won't move budge on them for many, many years until they mature. And, and He's, uh, he keeps us grounded. And this, this, this project we're working on right now, Roy says is a good thing. You know, we'll see if it's a good, good or bad and turn up to Disney World, the investment that they just they went all in on. But it's just a great example of somebody pulling into the future and somebody kind of like, Hey, we got to manage the risk and make sure this works. So if you are the visionary who has all the risk, and none of the risk management, get somebody in your life who can help you think that through because it may not be may not come natural to you. And you really could get a lot of value as somebody who can can explain it to you and create that polarity.
Joe Alapat 57:32
Well, you know, who also speaks to this? Did you brought up Disney Star Wars? Yeah, there's a rule of two, right? There's always two wood floors. And it's interesting when you think about that, and you know, in our world, it's before we even arrived at Eos. And we talked to you, we had this term, we called it bulldozers, and curators. And what we noticed in our company, is it happens in multiple layers is that when the magic happens, there's a bulldozer who kicks the door down. And the curated, it comes in and knows how to maintain whatever was innovated. And you need both and both are ultimately invaluable to success. For me, luckily, my co founder, you know, Vincent, you know, listen to my crazy ideas and said, Yeah, there's something of value here. And he was my initial curator that came in and said, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to clean up this mess that you're creating behind you. But there's something of value there. And I think that's so important is that you do need a bulldozer and a curator if you want to create something lasting. And so there's that visionary integrator concept. In EOS awesome.
Mark 58:43
Look, man, we're almost out of time. What is your passionate plea for entrepreneurs right now.
Joe Alapat 58:49
Be patient, it's a journey. And when you're in that journey, be curious, listen, and learn. Don't put your ego aside. And when you when you start with listening, then you can actually adapt and you can move through that journey and take the steps to get closer to 10x. Because that's, that's what my hope is, I mean, everyone needs to seek the 10x. And when you're getting closer and closer to it, you can sense it. It's like hitting that, you know, the accelerator and you can just feel like you're in that power lead power curve on the car and you're like zooming, that's what it feels like. And, you know, I you know, there's points in time where you'll feel that and you're just tingling, right and you just know it, man write down what that was because you have to recreate that moment and try to keep living in that zone and, and that no magic will happen. I love it.
Mark 59:40
I mean, if seeking your 10 acts, and so I love what you say especially when you're getting close to it. I would also encourage people who don't feel anywhere near close to it to keep iterating your way to it. Don't if you're feeling lost in the forest, you know, keep seeking it. It's worth it's worth the journey for sure. Oh, look, man, this has been incredible. The time just flew by and I learned a lot. I had a blast. If somebody wants to keep up with what's going on in your world and continue the conversation one way or the other, how does somebody find you?
Joe Alapat 1:00:07
Yeah, I'm in the usual spots. LinkedIn is a great place to find me. You just look up Joe, Pat, you know, just mentioned you listen to the this podcast and connect with me, especially if you got questions. And if you're interested in seeing what I'm working on, check out Lion Guard, Li o n g, ar d.com. So we're building some amazing software to help us with all of this technology that we have to take care of. And so take a look. And if you're an IT service provider, we'd love for you to take a look at that website, because you could really benefit from what it is we're doing. So this was awesome, Mark. This is, this is exciting. I learned a lot. This has been it's been a clarity break, honestly.
Mark 1:00:49
Nice. Nice. Well, Joe, it's a pleasure. It's a privilege, man. For anybody who's listening, we're at a time and we will see you next time. Please get this in the hands of your friends who could use this who might benefit from this and if you got feedback, good or bad, we'd love to get it. Every little scrap of feedback is so valuable for us. We take it exceedingly seriously. And don't forget to subscribe and share if you found it valuable. We will see you next time on you're doing it wrong with me, Mark Anderson.
VO 1:01:17
This is you're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson Leary for more episodes and to subscribe. Go to liren.cc